[Warhammer Dark Omen Forum]

Warhammer Dark Omen Forum | Warhammer Dark Omen | Multiplayer | Rules and Standards
5000/15

[WarpGhost]

i personally like to see 2/1 to avoid ppl use this unit as "meat" for blockign other units cause they unbreakable.

Thats fine, as it at least offers an inducement to use them. However, it should be 2/1/2 if people want to use 3. Big Uns or Wights with the Defiance Banner are 3 points and they far exceed Skellies (hell, even without the Banner they do). Ive found that whatever their unbreakability, being as crap as goblins they cant make as much use of that unbreakability for it to be comparable to Defiance Banner units, because noone gives the banner to their goblins!

Black Grail. 9 points is an awful lot to pay for a unit that isnt nearly as tough as 5 point mummies (nor have the physical immunity of Wraiths) an indeed only slightly more so than 2 point Wights (who they only exceed by WS, not vaugely worth a full point, and Unbreakable, which is apparently 1 point; the differences in T and armour balance out). Their hitting power is approximately 30-35% greater than Mummies (by virtue mainly of 3 more models, less so by WS6); that hitting power advantage is actually in net terms less than that, because of their fragility, so it tends to evaporate much faster than Mummies. Their main combat strength is perhaps derived from their damage causing Panic, which is possibly limited only to the round they charge (something else we need to check out). At 9 points, an army including Black Grail is basically only an army of Black Grail; UD struggle when Mummies/Wraiths get bogged down at 5 points. Numbers of troops counts for a lot, and when you can fit only a handful of zombies, ghouls and maybe a unit of Skellies or (probably bannerless) Wights, the Grail is virtually fighting an entire enemy army on its own. This is only made worse by virtually every army taking the Defiance Banner by default, meaning everyone has an easy option to stick the Grail and simply overwhelm it. Is a reduction to 8 points really too much to ask?

[Flak]

The Grail is an awesome weapon, i have myself used it supported by 1 skeleton archer, and 3 ghoul regiments (old rules), and the army did very well, especially as i played against an greenskin army with the horn of urgot, and the grail and the skeleton archers single handedly routed and killed 10 orc/goblin regiments. The ghouls fleed ofcz lol.

[alavet]

i think 9pts for grail is enough. well 8 may also be but we definately need test.

so i both for 8 or 9 but with tests

[bembelimen]

Would be nice, if everyone, who suggest new points, writes a summary at the end of his post,like this way:

regimentname x/x/x

So it's much easier to find all suggestions. thanks.

[Flak]

no changes desired by me i was tryn to argue against the lowering of skeleton warriors and archers

[bembelimen]

Yep I read it, I meant only, that it is much more easier for me, when I'll collect all suggestions one week later.

[WarpGhost]

Skeleton Warriors -> 1/1/2 or 2/1/2 or 1/2/2
Skeleton Archers -> 2/2/2
Skeleton Horsemen -> 2/3/3
Black Grail -> 8/9/10 (maybe)

Something ive just remembered, and needs to be looked at: Skeleton troops may appear to be Unbreakable like they have the Defiance Banner, but in the TT game they actually take extra losses when they lose combat, instead of taking a Break test like other troops. This means whilst they dont flee, they die at a far faster rate than truly Unbreakable troops do, which obviously if its true in DO (which anecdotely I believe it is, having seen how fast Skeleton troops die compared to comparable troops) makes the contention that they should remain expensive because they're 'Unbreakable' a far weaker argument.
Also note that this would explain why Skeleton Warriors/Horsemen/Archers have their own 'racial' flag as shown in the unit editor, whereas Catapaults and Chariots do not; the latter dont take wounds this way. This means that only those 2 units and Black Grail actually have the equivilant of the 1-point Defiance Banner people like to compare them to!

[alavet]

i agree with warpghost about units cost but second for skelles i prefer 2/1/2

[WarpGhost]

With a recent test of the actual strength of Skeletons Unbreakable ability, the case for Skeletons being worth less than some have assumed has just been strengthened. They simply arent even tarpits on the level of even a goblin unit with the Banner of Defiance. Only a straight-up test of how flagged Skeletons with Fear enabled perform will show if they are significantly stronger than Orc Boys/Goblins, Ghouls/Zombies and human infantry.

I also had a brief try-out with the Staff of Osiris against Black Grail Knights (before the game disconnected). And I can tell you that what the Staff does is cast a Blast/Gaze of Mork spell each magic phase. One shot took out a whole file of Grails (4), which was matched by a shot from Blast. Ive also seen Gaze of Mork take out a Treeman in 2 hits so I think we can assume that these are all extremely powerful spells that are only limited by what you can shoot them at and how many you can effect with it. I also know from experience that the Staff is easy to block the shot with terrain that you couldnt see, as even a slight rise in the ground will block the shot. But when it does land a good hit, its very powerful; roughly the equal of a cannonball would be my assumption.

[alavet]

its very powerful; roughly the equal of a cannonball would be my assumption.

well i think same. mobile canon.

you think we need it increase to 3 or wat?

btw land affect pretty much on this item. like on the map road to the moussillion ive recentlay played it works VERY bad

[bembelimen]

you think we need it increase to 3 or wat?

I think the whole items needs some adjusted points. I like e.g. the suggestion with 2 items for 1 point etc. and yeah it seems, that the staff needs minimum 2 points.

[WarpGhost]

Id say 2 points on the staff precisely because it seems the only item effectively limited by terrain, and also because its limited to mages only. It isnt even necassarily the best item for them at all times but it certainly has a deadlyness even the Wrath Banner cant necassarily match if well-used (of course, the Wrath Banner has a big advantage in simple reliability and ease of use so still rates higher in my book)

What other items need looking at? Stormsword looks like a candidate but it seems to be able to hit your own troops and its quite heavily limited by the requirement to be in melee, so i think its still a 1-point item. The other swords? They're all both expensive (the costliest of all items often by some way) and quite limited in their applications, and the Stormsword is probably the best of the bunch but even it doesnt deserve an increase. Spelleater Shield and Shield of Ptolos? Well they can both effectively make a unit immune to a certain type of attack and can also give unarmoured units a bit of armour, but its still only one unit and only against one type of attack so I think its still 1-point. Banner of Defiance? I do kinda feel its 2-points, especially given its prevelance, but then both Empire and Undead have access to Unbreakable troops anyway and perhaps we shouldnt begrudge O&G players having only this to emulate them.

Staff of Osiris -> 2
Strength Potion/Enchanted Shield/Heart of Woe/Dragon Helm -> 0 for the first item from that list

[Flak]

Staff of Osiris -> 2
Strength Potion/Enchanted Shield/Heart of Woe/Dragon Helm -> 0 for the first item from that list

i can agree with the changes proposed here but i have to say that i feel it has to cost something to get the benefits,
just like zombies a 2 for the price of 1 is best suited, because otherwise its the same as free potion of strength for everyone and that is the not the objective

[WarpGhost]

i can agree with the changes proposed here but i have to say that i feel it has to cost something to get the benefits,
just like zombies a 2 for the price of 1 is best suited, because otherwise its the same as free potion of strength for everyone and that is the not the objective

Something I did point out initially and ask people about.

[bembelimen]

Change:

• Skeleton Warriors -> 2/2/2 (cause fear AND you can have more than one "unbreakable" (this i neither possible with empire nor with greenskins))
• Skeleton Archers -> 2/2/3 (orc arrer boyz have the same points, and I guess, the skeletons are equal or better)
• Skeleton Horsemen -> 3/2/3 (see empire cav+orc cav)
• Staff of Osiris 2 (ok)

I thought about the goal of the unit's. Why do you buy undeads? For one reason: to cause fear, so why should a skeleton warrior/archer have the same or less points as an orc arrer? I think (beside the test) you underestimate attacking skeletons with their fear.

2nd for free:

• Strength Potion
• Enchanted Shield
• Dragon Helm

Wouldn't change:

• Heart of Woe: If you opponent attacks with 2-3 regiments, it's very powerful
• Black Grail:If you set it to 8 points, you have 7(!!) points left for other regiments, I personaly think, that this is to much