[Warhammer Dark Omen Forum]

Warhammer Dark Omen Forum | Warhammer Dark Omen | Multiplayer | Rules and Standards
5000/15

[alavet]

i feel that we need make sceleton warriors to 2/1/(3?)
sceletons naturally should be a core of ud army; also their stats not very good but their cost is a little higher if im not mistaken

also i faced with little weakness of ud army so making sceletons little cheaper is ok for the balance purposes

above stats of sceletons (1st) and swordmen

[WarpGhost]

That Swordsmen graph is wrong, they're actually WS4 so even better than shown there.

Something I've been feeling for a while; Skeletons are reliable, but mainly insofar as they're reliably bad. Empire can field 2 infantry units for the price of one Skellie unit, and the human troops have the advantage of polearms/great weapons to further emphasise their strengths. Fear and reliability are ok but they can only take you so far, especially when compared to the other armies having plentiful options of 1 point core infantry that are far superior to ghouls/zombies/skellies. I think Skellie Warriors should be priced 1/2/2 or even 1/1/2. Even Swordsmen and Orc Boys can comfortably take down Skellie warriors 1-on-1, with bad luck rather than Skellie prowess seeing Fear work against them. Numbers also gives UD the opportunity to use their Fear properly, because it only works when they have numbers, both for it to work and also to compensate for their crapness when it doesnt . So we have Ghouls which are decent but unreliable fighters, Zombies which are just cheapo-meat, and then we can add in Skellies as reliable but crap. Unlike the other armies with their well-rounded base troops, UD's core troops have clear pros/cons, and irregardless of those are still crapper fighters. It also means that the more 'elite' UD can stay costly, because their biggest failing is the inability to support them as well as other armies can their troops (although are Black Grail really worth 9 points with all the massed units, Defiance Banners, Flaggalents, other UD, and of course the big target on their heads, around?). As good as the stats of many UD elite may look in isolation, on the battlefield they still dont have the punch to win by themselves.

As for Skellie archers, they have a longer range than Goblins but they have the worst BS stat in the game. We should look at at 1/2/2 or 2/1/2 for them, especially as UD have only 1 war machine and SSC are the weakest of the mortar/lobba/SSC trio (and im told their mages basic 'fireball' spell is also the weakest in the game which doesnt help). UD simply cant create a shooty army to match their opponents no matter how we points them, but we should at least allow them to form something approaching a credible threat.

And then there's skellie horsemen; 4 points for a second unit??? They're just normal skellie warriors with a speed boost, making them easily the weakest cavalry in the game, with only their reliablity to aid them. Price them 2/2/3 or 2/3/3.

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Please make a list of all items with points (or grouped items who are "buy 1 get one free")

* Potion of Strength
 * Heart of Woe
 * Dragon Helm
 * Enchanted Shield

First one from this list is free, subsequent are 1 point. Just remember: lack of gold notwithstanding, we are essentially giving people a carte blanche to always take 1 of these items. Is everyone sure thats a place we want to go?

Im wondering, should we increase the cost of Defiance Banner to 2? I havent been round here long but im already seeing its almost obligatory, although certainly not a threat on the level of Wrath Banner/Horn. Considering how few UD unbreakable units there are, and these are poorer fighters than any unit that can take the Defiance Banner barring Goblins and Zombies!

[alavet]

i think we need make potion still =1 pts but allow men to take another item "for free". anyway he had to pay money. and yes i really had some armies which wasnt able to get any more items cause of lack of money


btw i still not sure about wights (2pts) i actually believe they should be 3 (no matter how much i like ud)
look charts of flagellants
(1st)


and wights:


flagellants and wights same in q-ty; but wights has WO=3 !!! and actually not bad LS.
from other way flags do have 2 attacks; but wights have 1armor included.

so i basically think these forces kinda clost in strenght so wights should be 3pts...

[bembelimen]

alavet you said some good points, but could you make 3 tests with this units and post the result? 10 flags vs. 10 wights with flags attacking and the same with wights attacking. Last but not least both attacking at the same time.

[alavet]

i actually wanted some1 to do that...

well maybe we will test it today with soem1 who wants (9k armies; no strnght boosts)

[Flak]

the eternal problem with wights is that they are just fancy zombies, if they flee they crash

3 pts is a big bet on a unit that potentially will flee after first engagement.

I have myself had that in 3k once, they fled quickly at the face of 2 orc regiments

its rare to see anyone bother to use them with out the banner of defiance

[alavet]

the eternal problem with wights is that they are just fancy zombies, if they flee they crash

thats true, but they have LS=8 and just 9 persons, so frankly speaking if any regiment with 9 starting units flee then usually it doesnt affects big at the game at all when they come back, cause regiments (in my experience) usually go flee if they lost about half of men. (im not talking about mummies or grails :)

so i mean if (virtually) flaggellants will be able to flee, they usually be fleed with 4-5 units in; which is doesnt help REALLY much when they return. so i mean if such low-unit regiment is gonna flee its usually means they already reduced their value a lot.

another really big problem that if we make them 3pts i dont sure any1 will use them. i think if we icnrease them to 12 in regiment it will help a lot. maybe they become overpowered though.
from other way; if we allow sceletons to be 2/1 (1/1) or so then we'll have some "free" points for wights...

[Flak]

yeah but wights dont come back, they are destroyed like zombies when they flee, the first wight can be 2 but they have the potential to be better than skeletons so i think 2/3/3 is not bad for wights

Flagellants wont flee they will fight until they are dead

Skeletons can be a powerful enemy because they also will never flee, weaker than most other infantry but with the ability to causing fear and will never flee themselves they are more valuable than other standard infantry, the currents points are well suited i think.
Skeleton cavalry the only undead unit i think that is too expensive, 2/4/4 is too much, 2/3/4 would be better suited

[alavet]

Flagellants wont flee they will fight until they are dead

oh thanks i didnt know that!\

seriously, have you ever read my post ? :)

i was actually saying that when any such regiments (lets imagine that flagellants) flee most of the time thats means that they most possibly lost at least half of tropps whcih decreases their strenght A LOT, so when they come back they dot do much... for example imagine how 4 flagellants will help you against fresh swordmen unit? i guess flags maybe kill a lot of swordmen but will die..

also, i believe that 1 regiment of wights able to kill one treeman (which costs 3 pts) or cavalry unit.
their WO=3 really awesome and they have armor comparing to flags... anyway i will test it today if some1 will agre to play with me and post a result there

[Flak]

lol sorry mate i misunderstood you

yes when other regiments flee they are often low in manpower but atleast they are not destroyed like wights but if important regiments flee and rally they can still decide the outcome of a battle, wights are done if they flee

lets put it this way, i trust flagellants alot more than i do wights

WS 3 is average for empire and greenskins but compared to many undead units its high yes

[WarpGhost]

its rare to see anyone bother to use them with out the banner of defiance

I've begun to, but simply because both they, Wraiths and Mummies are what I call 'fair weather' units; they're fine when the going's good but when things go wrong they both die almost spontaneously when they flee. And the Mummies need the Banner more than Wights because the Mummies are a lot more points and power. And that sudden death is very expensive in gold, points and army effectiveness. Wights/Wraiths die on flee because thats what happens and Mummies because they're M3 and thus everyone except Dwarfs and other Mummies can easily outpace them and run them into the ground (has happened every time theyve fled on me, which is far too regularly for such a supposedly good unit). Even other M3 troops have a decent chance of crippling or totally routing the fleeing Mummies, the same as happens when two M4 troops collide and one flees.

If Wights cost 3 points, I wouldnt use them, either naked or with Banner, until all other possible options were exhausted. I use them currently because there's no other way to spend those 2 points! Its the cost of single unit of skellies, and half a 2nd Horseman unit. If I have the gold, im prepared to take the risk but it doesnt mean its a particularly great choice. They simply wouldnt be worth it and they cost a packet for definite effectiveness reduction over only moderately more gold expensive Wraiths/Mummies. For Mummies/Wraiths/Black Grail, I dont mind paying high points so long as the other units in the army (skellies, etc), who are needed to support them, are reasonably priced. The UD elites will remain characteristically tough but brittle but will have the support in place to give them a fighting chance when things are going south.

[alavet]

awesoem news sirs

we just tested it with ZzUu some of wights vs flag and wights really worthless

4vs4 all wights fleed when flags was about 5 units left in each regiment (2 times i charged 2 times he charged)
also we tried wights vs treeman - they fleed
we tried wights vs elven warriors > wights kileld 1 elf and fleed

and they fleed even against swordmen 1v1 - they killed 2-3 swordmen and fleed its just LOL


then ZzUu said that we need to use banners of defiance with them. he used wights with banner and i gave him mine.
again we placed x2 flags agaisnt x2 wights
my charged flags kileld his wights and otherwise.

there was about x2 units in each regiment after the battle

and again we faced with big weakness of wights (we made some side batlles besides flags and wights). they likes to flee pretty much.

from other way they caused fear liek 2/3 of time against weak units like swordmen and so on, when they charge first.

so yeah i think 2 points its surely enough for them and even maybe second one also should be 2 pts cause i dont see reaons for any1 to buy 1 additional wight for 3

p.s. and sad to say this secret but storm staff seems to be overpowered a little. i think we need increase it to 2 or so. i really smashed ZzUu orcs and some human armies with this staff. in last game i kileld 44 men with my ice mage (maybe 10 units in this number i killed by spells as max)

[bembelimen]

So what's the result?

storm staff to 2?
skeleton horsemen to 2/3/4?

[WarpGhost]

Is it just me or do Flaggalants seem to perform a lot better than their (good) statline suggests? Are they actually worth more points (especially at just 360 gold a pop)?

we just tested it with ZzUu some of wights vs flag and wights really worthless

Well everyone makes the big fuss about Wights 3 Wounds but nothing about their 1 WS3 S3 attack, with Wight Blades that appear to have zero impact over hand weapons. 9 guys who fall apart when they break yet dont have the capability to kill stuff, which is needed to win combats? Not a strong combo Wraiths have twice the number of attacks (as a unit, 10 total instead of 9) and two-handed weapons on top; even Mummies muster 2 S4 attacks each (though only with hand weapons).

skeleton horsemen to 2/3/4?

That 3rd unit of Horsemen still isnt as good as Merc cav on 4 points also. They're fast and they cause fear, but fight-wise theyre the equal of basic skeletons and thus also goblins except for marginally more armour (whereas all other cavalry is above the average for their side, less so with boars but noticably with humans), and Unbreakable is less useful with cavalry (and also archers) than with infantry. 2/3/3 because of their fancy special rules but never more than 3.

p.s. and sad to say this secret but storm staff seems to be overpowered a little. i think we need increase it to 2 or so. i really smashed ZzUu orcs and some human armies with this staff. in last game i kileld 44 men with my ice mage (maybe 10 units in this number i killed by spells as max)

Noones commented on Defiance Banner, or indeed the UD Skellie cost issues.

As to the Staff of Osiris, its certainly been my primary mage wargear, but I rarely use mages...

[alavet]

Noones commented on Defiance Banner

i actually dont think it should be increased in cost. yes, everyone uses it but it doesnt meant we should increase it based on this fact, its illogical.

from my side of view its really costs 1-1,5 pts, cause its not really increasing any stats except LS.
if you want to prove its cost 2 then please try tests like follows:

any units with 1pts (like swordmen)+banner against any similar unit which costs 2pts (elves or biguns for example). well its possible than biguns will lost but i think it'd be very close.

maybe let ppl buy banner for 2 and some other artifacts for free (which is listed above)

what about making 0,5 pts system? it will solve some such problems. like we may make shield for 0,5 and firehelm for 0 and units will be more balanced...

UD Skellie cost issues.

i still think 1/1 is too cheap for them. they cause fear by themselves and unbreakable which is definately worth betetr than usual goblin. from other side im not sure they may handle ghouls 1v1 - mayeb some1 will test it?

i personally like to see 2/1 to avoid ppl use this unit as "meat" for blockign other units cause they unbreakable.

btw the main advantage (and disadvantage sometimes) of unbreakable units is that they will never flee so they may block other units very good.

so for exmapel currently i using zombies only for blocking some critical units and they usually holds for 2-3 rounds (and even cause fear and win sometimes) but skeletons will hold much more like 3-5 rounds. noo noo 1/1 no good.


maybe 1/2 also not bad but i dont like it