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Author Topic: Wizzards have to make Suicide?  (Read 10515 times)
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Arkturus
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« on: April 28, 2009, 09:45:02 AM »

Hey Guys...

I was reading the rules (so if they were all)
Is there anywhere a fighting-rule which says, if a wizzard is the last unit that he MUST attack and run into a swordcombat?
If yes. can u show me where i can see that?

I fought yesterday vs Warhammerfreak and my Vamp was the last unit he said i have to fight him cuz its a rule.
My Vamp has won, but is this rule really existing?

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alavet
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« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2009, 10:29:15 AM »

there was this rule, but somehow its missing from this:
http://wiki.dark-omen.org/do/DO/Rules/5000/15

yes you should go mage in close combat if he stays alone. that caused cause of these TONNS of HATE by your opponent when he has mummies for examples which are very slow. if you want to feel this sense, just try to kill vampire with any meele unit w/o antimagic. preff. with something like slow mummies.

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ZzUu
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« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2009, 11:41:45 AM »

I just thought that cancelling this rule and setting vampire to 6 or more points could be quite a good way to balance mummies...
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bembelimen
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« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2009, 11:43:32 AM »

This rule is not related to 5000/15 it was a specific rule for the tournament. So in general, both player have to agree it before battle, when you play outside of a tourney.
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alavet
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« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2009, 04:12:31 PM »

after big duscussion with "tovertrut" (player from hamachi) we suggest following: you may escape with your mage/pistoleter for some limited amount of time. i think 4 round (each roudn as we know goes for 30 secs (for those who dont know roudn ends when blue line goes upp and down (when u get mana)))
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tovertrut
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« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2009, 06:12:46 PM »

i was very surprised when i read this rule,i find the not charging to run away and the no teleporting a very good rule.ive had several regiments killed by 1 mage left who just teleported when i got him cornered,this wasnt even close to fun.charging seemed good for pistoliers so they cant do such fast hit and runs.

i see how when 1 person has 5pistoliers left and another 15swordsmen the person with the pistoliers would win,but because it isnt for the person with swordsmen the pistoliers must throw the battle and go into melee(wich they will ofcourse lose)this doesnt seem fun towards the pistolier user...bein forced to throw the game...(yes the game is about fun not about winning,but forcefully throwing a game is not my idea of fun :p)

for mages i was also very surprised to read this,because well they r weak in melee but strong ranged...then i got explained and expierenced for myself the crazy speed of the vampire...this does seem a problem...but i find it sad that because the vampire is so fast and fairly strong in melee that my empire wizard gets forced into melee aswel.

since i read these rules i talked to a few people who where very supportive of this rule and also some who werent to happy about it.
the rounds until getting forced into melee seemed more fair to me...maybe others who have done multiplayer longer have more arguments to why or why not...
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Crusoe
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« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2009, 07:49:32 PM »

This rule is not related to 5000/15 it was a specific rule for the tournament. So in general, both player have to agree it before battle, when you play outside of a tourney.

Sry bembelimen but im not agree whit u.

First, a rule is a rule and if there is one then it must be always applied in all 5k15 (same kind) modes including friendly games.

Second, if players wanna play whitout rules or using an unexisting one, then thats another case.

Third, 5k15 rules on wiki page does not refers to this point, if the rules exists then it must be done official and published, otherwise the specific limitation doesnt exists. You guys have done a great job so pls dont leave this point whitout publishing if u determinate to insert it. Its a serious comunnity.

Fourth, im not agree whit this "shadow rule" because its a very simply concept behind the scenes, if a player can´t kill me then logically I WIN. How tha hell its suppose that i loose the game if my opponent cant kill me??

Fifth, teleporting magic is an original option included on the game and i dont see a good reason for dismissed more than a "multiplayer boring reason".  Thats isnt enough for me and cannot be over the software capacities.

Six, 5k15 rules uses lvl1 armies and teleporting magic its random selected, its not a choice, u never know what magic..... bla bla bla... u know that. So if i choose a mage its for what?? If im not wrong, is for use his magic powers.

Seven, its my duty to be prepared for a teleporting mage and perform a good army.

Instead of that, obviously i understand the problem that this causes in multi games and this would be solved and published.

Maybe some of u have noticed that im trying to review 5k15 rules. I have read about factions and the suggestions made in 5000/15 topic and i have found too many interesting opinions. Some concepts like Honor codes, CHW and other could be aplied on 5k15 games for finally obtain a mayor rule setting where all the better things extracted from each rule conform some kind of "ultimate multiplayer rule". I got some ideas but it still too early, i need more opinions and suggestions too.

Pls guys, lets try to fix this using a common sense and making a good rule for all of us.
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alavet
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« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2009, 08:40:04 PM »

nice long post crusoe

but i hope i may answer all of your pints by these two:

1) watch this vidoe:
Warhammer Dark Omen - Bright Wizard wins last mission!LQ | LQ+ | by Aeva


after watching, do you really think that this tactic is "fair", logcal and makes fun for both opponents?

2) have you ver faced with enemy vampire/pistoleters running away from you? how often? how did u countered it? how did you feel about it?

and finally, i think tha our main principles in the games we play should be:
-take fun for both players
-dont allow unfair advantage for another players (see vid; if you think its "fair" then ..oh..)
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Crusoe
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« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2009, 12:13:16 AM »

nice video alavet !!

...but i still stand in my position. Rules aren´t finished completely yet, 5k15 and further 7k and 9k games still needs some revisions, there are many specific points like the one we're talking about now that may have been studied deeper.

...meanwhile, we have to find a solution for this thread relative to 5k games. If we compare the example shown on video we can see this things:

- that mage isnt lvl1, he may always carry the teleport magic.
- player knows before entering battle what troops are in scene.
- playing against AI is different...... bla bla bla...
- that mage was using "bonus tracks" (....that banner used on pistoliers causes the same headache)


"Pls guys, lets try to fix this using a common sense and making a good rule for all of us", that means a neutral solution because i know what u mean in the frase "dont allow unfair advantage for another players"

....nobody sais that it was an easy work

Sad
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Ghabry
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« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2009, 02:07:56 AM »

All vids are from fights before the BoW has been increased btw so even this anti mage tactic doesn't work anymore (and is also quite useless against vampire)

Here are some Tournament Vids using the mage tactic (with a LV1 mage):
5k/15 ruleset:
Part 1
5000/15 February Tournament - vs. Kuja - The Empire (Part 1)LQ | LQ+ | HQ | HD | by Aeva

Part 2
5000/15 February Tournament - vs. Kuja - The Empire (Part 2)LQ | LQ+ | HQ | HD | by Aeva


Another one (in 3k/10 ruleset):
3000/10 January Tournament - vs. baggie (Great Forest at Night)LQ | LQ+ | HQ | HQ+ | HD | by Aeva


But I can also play such tactics - with Pistoliers:
3000/10 Tournament - Ghabry vs. djlebomb (2nd fight)LQ | HQ | by Aeva
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alavet
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« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2009, 10:18:29 AM »

i think your reply gharby ideally illustrates why this tactic (with mage) is "dirty".

i also have such worries even with not vampire, but firemage which had fire scull and artifact which decreases cost of magic. fortunately i was playing against good "fair" player and he'd go in close combat after he lose his regiment but he stil had another regiment when i catched mage... but it was very close game if he'd decide to run me away even with firebamge (and scull - very terrorfull spell).

i offer to make a rule which prevents to run away more than 3 rounds after mage/pistoleter/cavalry with banner/elven bowmen (cause they're speedy) left alone at the battlefield. afetr 3 round they should be forced to go cc


i know that you may easilly counter "magic" tactic with one antimagic shield but 1) i dont want to force ppl to buy it every time 2) vamp may kill some weak regiment in cc even when they held antimagic shield
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Mr Shadow
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« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2009, 12:16:59 PM »

In my opinion, the post (and battles) from Ghabry, does not reinforce the notion that it is the tactic regarding mages that is the problem.
I am firmly against any rules that restrict the behaviour of the players on the battlefield, after all -we want the community members to be inventive and reactive. To any challenge there is a solution.
And as I have mentioned before, this type of rules-making stirs emotions, and especially when mentioned in the heat of battle. Allowing members to point out to their opponent when playing what they can and cannot do will always cause conflict and become a less pleasurable experience for both players.

How do we want our members to react to an opponents tactics (one that he/she has payed for with the points-system)
1. Hey! thats unfair, you can't do that!

or..

2. Hmmm, how do I change my own way of playing to beat this?


The way I see it is, the problem rests not with the tactics, or the units themselves, but with the Items.
To successfully preform a "Hit-and-run-bomber-mage" tactic with any level 1 mage, you need either the Wand of Jet or the Book of Ashur.
Likewise -how deadly is the "Lightningbolts-from-my-arse" tactic without the Banner of Wrath?

Even the Vampire will have considerable less bite without these items  Grin

I think that I have made my sentiments quite clear.
/Mr Shadow
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alavet
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« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2009, 12:53:47 PM »

i dunno seems like the only way to show you how badly is this tactic we all  should just play with this tactic and kick your ass.
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Mikademus
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« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2009, 02:03:14 PM »

One thing that I think may be relevant here is to bear in mind that DO's MP gamplay are rough and unbalanced. They'd intended to patch and fix it, but it never happened, so there're imbalances built into the game we have to work around.
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Flak
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« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2009, 02:45:07 PM »

Ive never had problems with this, i understand the resistance to not wanting rules on battlefield behavior.
I personally always have archers and if you've played me you will know i target wizards rather alot to ever aviod having one annyoing wizard left to face.

Personally i understand the notion that a player needs to have his army prepared for a bit of anything, not simply make a pure mummy and wraith army knowing the enemy has to enter hand to hand combat.

Also though if a battle is lost and its clear who had the better tactics but is killed by a teleporting mage taking 30 minutes to kill the remains, is not something most would be pleased with.
Nor is it fair to have to throw a game because the last unit left has to commit suicide.

The same problem will accur with archers and pistoliers if we make a special rule for mages.

The answer i think is to increased the mage cost, mages are too cheap that is one of the problems.
Vampires have been made 4
other mages are only 2, bright mage should be 3
shamans and ice can stay at 2

Magic items could also be made 2 pts per item.
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