Warhammer Dark Omen Forum

Hey Guys...

I was reading the rules (so if they were all)
Is there anywhere a fighting-rule which says, if a wizzard is the last unit that he MUST attack and run into a swordcombat?
If yes. can u show me where i can see that?

I fought yesterday vs Warhammerfreak and my Vamp was the last unit he said i have to fight him cuz its a rule.
My Vamp has won, but is this rule really existing?

there was this rule, but somehow its missing from this:
http://wiki.dark-omen.org/do/DO/Rules/5000/15 (http://wiki.dark-omen.org/do/DO/Rules/5000/15)

yes you should go mage in close combat if he stays alone. that caused cause of these TONNS of HATE by your opponent when he has mummies for examples which are very slow. if you want to feel this sense, just try to kill vampire with any meele unit w/o antimagic. preff. with something like slow mummies.

I just thought that cancelling this rule and setting vampire to 6 or more points could be quite a good way to balance mummies...

This rule is not related to 5000/15 it was a specific rule for the tournament. So in general, both player have to agree it before battle, when you play outside of a tourney.

after big duscussion with "tovertrut" (player from hamachi) we suggest following: you may escape with your mage/pistoleter for some limited amount of time. i think 4 round (each roudn as we know goes for 30 secs (for those who dont know roudn ends when blue line goes upp and down (when u get mana)))

i was very surprised when i read this rule,i find the not charging to run away and the no teleporting a very good rule.ive had several regiments killed by 1 mage left who just teleported when i got him cornered,this wasnt even close to fun.charging seemed good for pistoliers so they cant do such fast hit and runs.

i see how when 1 person has 5pistoliers left and another 15swordsmen the person with the pistoliers would win,but because it isnt for the person with swordsmen the pistoliers must throw the battle and go into melee(wich they will ofcourse lose)this doesnt seem fun towards the pistolier user...bein forced to throw the game...(yes the game is about fun not about winning,but forcefully throwing a game is not my idea of fun :p)

for mages i was also very surprised to read this,because well they r weak in melee but strong ranged...then i got explained and expierenced for myself the crazy speed of the vampire...this does seem a problem...but i find it sad that because the vampire is so fast and fairly strong in melee that my empire wizard gets forced into melee aswel.

since i read these rules i talked to a few people who where very supportive of this rule and also some who werent to happy about it.
the rounds until getting forced into melee seemed more fair to me...maybe others who have done multiplayer longer have more arguments to why or why not...

Sry bembelimen but im not agree whit u.

First, a rule is a rule and if there is one then it must be always applied in all 5k15 (same kind) modes including friendly games.

Second, if players wanna play whitout rules or using an unexisting one, then thats another case.

Third, 5k15 rules on wiki page does not refers to this point, if the rules exists then it must be done official and published, otherwise the specific limitation doesnt exists. You guys have done a great job so pls dont leave this point whitout publishing if u determinate to insert it. Its a serious comunnity.

Fourth, im not agree whit this "shadow rule" because its a very simply concept behind the scenes, if a player can´t kill me then logically I WIN. How tha hell its suppose that i loose the game if my opponent cant kill me??

Fifth, teleporting magic is an original option included on the game and i dont see a good reason for dismissed more than a "multiplayer boring reason".  Thats isnt enough for me and cannot be over the software capacities.

Six, 5k15 rules uses lvl1 armies and teleporting magic its random selected, its not a choice, u never know what magic..... bla bla bla... u know that. So if i choose a mage its for what?? If im not wrong, is for use his magic powers.

Seven, its my duty to be prepared for a teleporting mage and perform a good army.

Instead of that, obviously i understand the problem that this causes in multi games and this would be solved and published.

Maybe some of u have noticed that im trying to review 5k15 rules. I have read about factions and the suggestions made in 5000/15 topic and i have found too many interesting opinions. Some concepts like Honor codes, CHW and other could be aplied on 5k15 games for finally obtain a mayor rule setting where all the better things extracted from each rule conform some kind of "ultimate multiplayer rule". I got some ideas but it still too early, i need more opinions and suggestions too.

Pls guys, lets try to fix this using a common sense and making a good rule for all of us.

nice long post crusoe

but i hope i may answer all of your pints by these two:

1) watch this vidoe:
Warhammer Dark Omen - Bright Wizard wins last mission! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lqv95mwackA#lq-lq2)

after watching, do you really think that this tactic is "fair", logcal and makes fun for both opponents?

2) have you ver faced with enemy vampire/pistoleters running away from you? how often? how did u countered it? how did you feel about it?

and finally, i think tha our main principles in the games we play should be:
-take fun for both players
-dont allow unfair advantage for another players (see vid; if you think its "fair" then ..oh..)

nice video alavet !!

...but i still stand in my position. Rules aren´t finished completely yet, 5k15 and further 7k and 9k games still needs some revisions, there are many specific points like the one we're talking about now that may have been studied deeper.

...meanwhile, we have to find a solution for this thread relative to 5k games. If we compare the example shown on video we can see this things:

- that mage isnt lvl1, he may always carry the teleport magic.
- player knows before entering battle what troops are in scene.
- playing against AI is different...... bla bla bla...
- that mage was using "bonus tracks" (....that banner used on pistoliers causes the same headache)


"Pls guys, lets try to fix this using a common sense and making a good rule for all of us", that means a neutral solution because i know what u mean in the frase "dont allow unfair advantage for another players"

....nobody sais that it was an easy work

:(

All vids are from fights before the BoW has been increased btw so even this anti mage tactic doesn't work anymore (and is also quite useless against vampire)

Here are some Tournament Vids using the mage tactic (with a LV1 mage):
5k/15 ruleset:
Part 1
5000/15 February Tournament - vs. Kuja - The Empire (Part 1) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP4dBqSw1kM#ws-lq-lq2-hq-hd)
Part 2
5000/15 February Tournament - vs. Kuja - The Empire (Part 2) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoehiBuZVwM#ws-lq-lq2-hq-hd)

Another one (in 3k/10 ruleset):
3000/10 January Tournament - vs. baggie (Great Forest at Night) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAJbB3zPp8g#ws-lq-lq2-hq-vhq-hd)

But I can also play such tactics - with Pistoliers:
3000/10 Tournament - Ghabry vs. djlebomb (2nd fight) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ottfLTTyWbw#lq-hq)

i think your reply gharby ideally illustrates why this tactic (with mage) is "dirty".

i also have such worries even with not vampire, but firemage which had fire scull and artifact which decreases cost of magic. fortunately i was playing against good "fair" player and he'd go in close combat after he lose his regiment but he stil had another regiment when i catched mage... but it was very close game if he'd decide to run me away even with firebamge (and scull - very terrorfull spell).

i offer to make a rule which prevents to run away more than 3 rounds after mage/pistoleter/cavalry with banner/elven bowmen (cause they're speedy) left alone at the battlefield. afetr 3 round they should be forced to go cc


i know that you may easilly counter "magic" tactic with one antimagic shield but 1) i dont want to force ppl to buy it every time 2) vamp may kill some weak regiment in cc even when they held antimagic shield

In my opinion, the post (and battles) from Ghabry, does not reinforce the notion that it is the tactic regarding mages that is the problem.
I am firmly against any rules that restrict the behaviour of the players on the battlefield, after all -we want the community members to be inventive and reactive. To any challenge there is a solution.
And as I have mentioned before, this type of rules-making stirs emotions, and especially when mentioned in the heat of battle. Allowing members to point out to their opponent when playing what they can and cannot do will always cause conflict and become a less pleasurable experience for both players.

How do we want our members to react to an opponents tactics (one that he/she has payed for with the points-system)
1. Hey! thats unfair, you can't do that!

or..

2. Hmmm, how do I change my own way of playing to beat this?


The way I see it is, the problem rests not with the tactics, or the units themselves, but with the Items.
To successfully preform a "Hit-and-run-bomber-mage" tactic with any level 1 mage, you need either the Wand of Jet or the Book of Ashur.
Likewise -how deadly is the "Lightningbolts-from-my-arse" tactic without the Banner of Wrath?

Even the Vampire will have considerable less bite without these items  ;D

I think that I have made my sentiments quite clear.
/Mr Shadow

i dunno seems like the only way to show you how badly is this tactic we all  should just play with this tactic and kick your ass.

One thing that I think may be relevant here is to bear in mind that DO's MP gamplay are rough and unbalanced. They'd intended to patch and fix it, but it never happened, so there're imbalances built into the game we have to work around.

Ive never had problems with this, i understand the resistance to not wanting rules on battlefield behavior.
I personally always have archers and if you've played me you will know i target wizards rather alot to ever aviod having one annyoing wizard left to face.

Personally i understand the notion that a player needs to have his army prepared for a bit of anything, not simply make a pure mummy and wraith army knowing the enemy has to enter hand to hand combat.

Also though if a battle is lost and its clear who had the better tactics but is killed by a teleporting mage taking 30 minutes to kill the remains, is not something most would be pleased with.
Nor is it fair to have to throw a game because the last unit left has to commit suicide.

The same problem will accur with archers and pistoliers if we make a special rule for mages.

The answer i think is to increased the mage cost, mages are too cheap that is one of the problems.
Vampires have been made 4
other mages are only 2, bright mage should be 3
shamans and ice can stay at 2

Magic items could also be made 2 pts per item.

i think the 3rounds before getting forced into melee is great idea(or it seems a good thing to me)cause just having to suicide is rather dull and getting killed over 10minutes by a mage that teleports away every time u corner him is just as lame.i dont agree on making bright wizard cost more then other mages...his burning skull skill is very powerfull but bright wizard is easely killed and u need luck to get the right skills,if u get a fireball and tp skill ur screwed :p
and ive seen the ice mage be at least as destructive with ice shards and wind of cold.and to some undead that fall apart when fleeing he is a complete killer with his hawks of miska skill.

and im not sure on how the rules r atm but i would think if this gets taken into rules that in those 3 rounds the mage also is not alowed to teleport or charge to flee(charge to flee also not allowed for pistoliers then)? or can he teleport/fleecharge for 3rounds before bein forced into melee?

hm, the Dark Omen Player Westwoodboy (havn't seen him in the forum for a while but often talk with him in ICQ) has posted a video that shows the same problems (but only the beginnign of it). At the end the enemy had a necromancer with Teleport which killed his entire army in 20min (ok, enemy lost because he was bored after 20min but he could have won by doing this tactic).
And I know that this is a 9k or whatever fight.

Dark omen Lan btel -3- TRAINING vs. Perseus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z92SsMDcguo#lq-lq2-hq)


OT: And why is the Undead Chariot (he used the Undead-army from the Advent Calendar I created) not crashing the game? Maybe because it was in LAN so it doesn't desync so easy? Dunno...

I agree with the Spell Cycle rule that you have to attack after ca. 3 Spell cycles passed (one cycle takes 30sec, correct?)

We have two "groups" here: one who want the rule with "last mage have to go to cc" and one with "last mage can teleport ass long as he want".

My opinion didn't change: This rule shouldn't be related to the 5000/15 ruleset because this "mage problem" is a global problem and not a 5k/15 problem. Neither allowing teleport nor deny it will make the 5k/15 more playable, so I think, we should make some "global" guidelines How a player should act in multiplayer (http://forum.dark-omen.org/multiplayer/how-to-act-in-a-multiplayer-fight-t335.0.html). Let's create them together, feel free to post in the discussion thread (http://forum.dark-omen.org/multiplayer/discussion-how-to-act-in-multiplayer-t336.0.html), a mod will move the suggestion to the original one (so the original one will not be to long).

OMG i read this after the "how to act..."

so i did it well !!

....come on, neutral solutions!!

"bendito sea este foro"

i dont know how i to send this massage ....
(i cant good speack english)

-i have a rule for mages i and my friends do this rule in any matches

if your mage has a teleport spell he can used only in the deploy zone Only!!

this rule funktional good we think ^^

Right I remember. Wesstwoodboy told me about it a while ago.
The problem with the rule is that you have to remember where the deployment zone was ;)
Your mage is only allowed to teleport to the Deployment zone so if you want to attack with the mage you have to walk to him and if you are in trouble you can tele back to the deplzone.

Hello. Im Jeronimo.

Im thinking in this moment... WHO... yes, WHO has the idea of making Wizards suicide?

I know about "hit and run" tactic. I have made it, and other have made it to me.
A Rule must be done, prices must be changed, but... Suicide? Makes me believe you consider this tactic as a problem without solution. For god sake... Was neccesary to reach that far?
Remember that here you are also dooming Wizards without Teleport.

I used my creativity to make a "more logical" rule to these situations (New behaviour + Costs changed in FO Mod)
My suggestion is posted in the "FO Tournament" Topic.
Take a look if you are interested.  ;)

Time to post "IMO" ;)

I really dont see a point of this discussion... From one side i see players who want to cancel "mage hit and run" restriction and made some other penalties. That makes some sence. From the other side - players who... misreaded "how to act" topic? Well it goes like this:
"Don't play lame. That means, don't play run&hide&teleport games with your last regiment, if your opponent defeats all other units and is clearly better."
  IMO that means if u r standing against half an army with ur single mage - no doubt, u lost. Yes, u can teleport\hit\teleport but thats rediculous - YOU ARE CLEARLY LOST IT TACTICALY. So there is nothing wrong to send ur mage in a suicidal attack in that case. And if ur last standing man is a mage and ur oponent has 1 regiment of mumies or any other 1-2 regiments why should u give up? Teleport is a mage strong point and u should use it! Its as rediculous as a rule that archers can't shoot and cavalry can't charge...
  Besides:
- The game balance made mages the primary target. You can't eliminate them early? Time to pay. Don't tell me its impossible.
- There are lots of ways to counter lonely mage with teleport (banner, shield, ur mage at last). Can't keep your archers with spell eater shild (or something like that) to the finale fase of the battle? Well thats a tactical disadvantage of the strategy don't ya think?
- Player who takes a mage (and hopes to make a hit&run tactic at the end) gambles! The teleport is NOT the obviously part of mage's (esp.lvl1) magic book.
  The same i think goes to pistoliers... So i think the rule says fair and clearly - you totaly crushed opponent's army - you won the battle.
 P.S. Oh and don't forget that u can spend 30 seconds to discuss mage behaviour b4 the battle.

Thanx 4 your attention. Good evening.  

whole problem is there.
some players just think that even if they play against half army with lone mage, they're not lost, unless mage died.
like when i had 4 ud tropps vs lone necromancer, he didnt gave up and continiued fight (with dancing swords spell, so it wasnt much hard for him)

Flawless viktory hehe
Well that depend on honesty of the player. If he wanted a challenge of his skills or just a viktory (Pirrhic victory i must add). The same goes to rulesets. Situation:
You decided to play 3000/10 ruleset. Your oponent creates an army using 9000/10. Extra gold he spends to buy high level units and give them extra armour. You never know what hit ya. No way to check it.
So here comes the same statement - how honestly your oponent want to play.

I agree with what Cirroz is sayn

one of the strengths of a mage is the hit and run that they do even when the armies first clash. Mages avoid combat and they mostly end up fighting other mages with spell or archers, if the archers/mage fail to kill the mage then dont expect him to suddenly start going into single combat.

Its rare in my own battles that a mage survives as killing the mage is half a victory, if i fail to then ive half-lost

OT: btw its possible to see enemy armies. check bembe/gharby threads (or ask them directly). game saves enemy armies in some temp directory.

yes in C:windows/temp

player0 and player1 files hold yours and the enemy from the last battle

Hm, strange discussion up here.
We all know very well that hit'n'run is a weapon of a truly mass destruction — yes, we all passed the final mission of the Campaign, and we all slayed tons and tons of mummies, plus skeletons and Dread King himself, basically using hit'n'run.
It's ok for the Campaign. But this can totally kill the whole interest in playing Multiplayer games.

What can we do to prevent players from using this «unfair» tactic?
First of all — I think that creators of the game have made all the conditions for this «bug». Yes, it's a conceptual «bug» and a huge one.
If creators of the game wanted to make the multiplayer fair, (except the correct costs of regiments of course, hehe), they would have to restrict the teleport (no teleport at all in multiplayer games), and the speed of Vampire. May be no Vampire at all too.

Don't say me, please, that if my 5-10 regiments are destroyed by a single Vampire who sneaks with teleport all over the map and runs faster than any horse can, that this is a disadvantage of my army. Cause this is bullshit.
Army can be either one that can fight other normal armies, or the one that is only created to hunt the hit'n'running Vampire, but in such a case it will probably suck against normal «regiment»-based army.

As for me, the the rule that forces the mage to go cc if he's only one left — the best practice. And it should be kept.

Let this be our own Warhammer Bushido, a code of noble behaviour.

Thank you, that's exactly what it means. We don't want to force people to play with our rules (outside of the monthly tournaments ofc ;)), they can decide itself, if they want or not. And as its name says, this are gentlemen rules. We don't say "You're not allowed to smoke", we say: "If you wanna act fair, don't smoke" (to take a real life example)

"Raise the Dead" is a Dark Spell and "Raise the Topic" is just my phrase.

Enough of rhymes, time to read, what i have in mind.


BIND: The problem here is the Abuse of Strong Wizards.
When a player writes this, Strong Wizard won’t be able to stay far from your regiments.
He will have to be at 2 charge distance (move 4) or 1 charge distance (move 6) as maximum.
When is written must move straight to your closest regiment (no need to do false charges).
Once he is inside, he can’t go out, and if the regiment he is attached to is defeated or retreats from battle (white flag), he must move towards closest remaining regiments.
Can use Items and cast whatever he has, included teleport, but just around your actual bounds.

Wizards with BIND are allowed to pass from regiment to regiment (Chain Move), this means to walk around 2 or 3 regiments which are near each other. Although he will be able to teleport, will be only around the regiment he is attached at moment (or attached chain).

Conditions: You must have 5 or less Army’s Regiments. Enemy’s Wizard must be 4 Skulls Level.
Clarification: “Retreating Regiments with White Flag” and Zombies of “Raise the Dead” don’t count as owned Regiments. This way, players can write BIND only once per battle.


Bad or nice, tell me why, dont forget, to draw a smile :)

Ok but at first I want that you add a "Follow regiment" function to the Dark Omen Engine...

Smile for you:  :o

At least is better than Hit & Walk. Can cast magic/use items only if is at close range.. i ll write it better later.

BIND: This means, you cant cast/activate anything if u are far from enemy... that's would be enough.

Normal behaviour for wizard, except that needs to be close if u want to use him (inlcluded his items, no matter the range of Osiris for example).
About going straight to enemy... well, we cant remove that part :) (bothersome rule).



Im still cleaning some details about BUG word.. to make it simpler.

Some people in this thread say that the Wizard was designed as a hit&run vehicle. It's clearly not, if it was it would ALWAYS have teleport. The wizard is more like a mix between a moving artillery piece and archers. Capable of cashing out incredible damage in short time but needs protection.

Let me comment on one of the video's posted here. In some of them you don't even SEE the mage turn up until the battle is lost. The player was literally just weakening you and hoping he could win with his forces. When he couldn't he shows up with a mage that generally just hops around the field, ripping apart any regiment by sheer time.

There is nothing wrong with wizards themselves. Their power is curbed by being just one person and their relative weakness in melee or when being shot at. Where it goes wrong is that he can stay out of shot from arrows and melee indefinitely just because he has a teleport spell.
No single unit should be powerful enough that if you haven't prepared it, that single unit (not a mass of that unit, just that single unit) can destroy your entire army. Sure, there is no 100% guarantee that you get this ability, but the fact that you CAN get the ability to destroy an entire army with one unit and patience proves it's unbalanced.
There are multiple ways around this. Increase the price of teleport, decrease the range of teleport by making it have either a maximum range so it can't teleport away/to enemies far away, or to have it be a 'visial range' spell that you can only use on anything in direct visual range of your caster like a cannon so your enemy will ALSO be able to see you regardless if you teleported away.
Now people will say 'you can use a spelleater shield/banner to counter it'. Yes and no, it doesn't protect for 100% in my experience, just elongating the 'battle'. You should also not be forced to protect those units from beginning to end just in case they have a mage in the background.
I would be perfectly happy with removing teleport altogether. Mages would become perfectly capable and powerful siege-support units capable of cashing out great damage from behind the lines with more accuracy and less friendly fire then archers or cannons ever will. With enough magic points you can also wipe out an entire regiment faster then almost any other unit can. They are pretty balanced without teleport, and it would make the gap between shamans/ice wizard (who cannot have teleport) and the necro/bright wizard/vampire smaller and fairer.

As soon as the mage is solved, people will turn to units as pistoliers to use as hit&run tactics. At least they can be countered by a nice big siege engine, archers (if they don't have Ptolos), a mage, a regiment as cannon fodder wearing Ptolos or some cavalry. They have a lot more options then 'another mage or spelleater shield'. If necessary you could build in some small nerfs to the character like having a less consistent 'charge', forcing a longer regroup period afterwards so other units have an easier time catching up. You could also make them turn around slower somehow so they take longer to aquire a target and to change direction to flee. It would still allow the hit&run tactics they are meant for but they would require more backup from other units to do so  safely.

Last but not least, any rule that forces one player to give up is detrimental to the game. If the player will win with almost 100% chance because of a single unit suddenly has to suicide because of, you know, 'rules'. People don't tend to want to agree with it.
If the player who defeated an entire army and came off with several regiments left suddenly comes to a standstill because of one uncatchable unit it's unfair to him. So whatever happens, the suicide rule or the 'Im gonna ***** up your day because I'll just abuse one element in the game', it's not fun for either one. We shouldn't be looking at creating subjectively enforced rules here, we should be looking at creating balanced units.