[Warhammer Dark Omen Forum]

Warhammer Dark Omen Forum | Warhammer Dark Omen | Multiplayer | Rules and Standards
5000/15

[Grend]

I did not mean to offend using the phrase ruin
but I still feel like this should be separated though.
What you are saying is making sense though, it will make a larger portion of the avalaoble items used and that is a good thing, but just unsure of what other effects it will have on the system. Even small changes can cause huge changes in the meta-game and thus make things very different without anyone realizing it when the changes are done.

[Jeronimo]

Yes, I understand my behaviour also wasnt the best.
It was foolish of my part to practically Jeronimize the Ruleset.

However, I think the Items List should be implemented.
The process began when I saw Horn of Urgok at 10 points (good to me because of BGK), thinking what is possible to create with the 3 Races + HoU. As result, I did the "deep tweak" in order to have some "cheap point meat" to fulfill "Horn Armies" (these is 1 of reasons that motivated me).

[Flak]

POST 1000 

As Grend says even small changes does big things, just look how Treeman flaggelant armies where suddenly the big thing last tournament because treemanwas cut down t 1 pts. Before treeman was 1 it never happened

Now imagine the uncontrollable scale of this many untested changes, its got more the taste of a remake that a balancing act.

If thise changes as suggested is "a jump to future" then let me stay in the past with what works relatively well

Everything cannot be balanced either, there has to be room for inventing new army builds and unexpected army builds

[bembelimen]

Conclusion for regiments:

Empire
Imperial Bowmen 2/2/3 - accepted
Treeman 2/-/- - accepted
Flagellants 3/4/5 - accepted?
Imperial Cannon 1/3/3 2/2/3 2/1/2 - still 3 opinions
dwarf 2/1/2 - accepted?

Greenskins
Orc bolt throwser 1/2/2 1/1/1 - still 2 opinions
Troll 2/1/0 - accepted
Spider 1/1/2 - accepted
Scorpion 1/1/2 - accepted

Undead
Ghouls 1/2/2 - accepted
Skeleton horsemen 2/3/2 - accepted?
wraiths 4/4/4 - accepted
wights 2/3/3 2/2/2 - still 2 opinions

Items
coming soon...

So please talk about the orange and red undecided regiments 

[Darkmancer]

My opinion:

Accept them all

Cannon 2/1/2

Bolt thrower 1/1/2 1/1/1

wights 2/2/2

[Wkurwiony]

flagellants 3/4/5
imperial cannon 2/1/2
orc bolt thrower 1/1/1
skeleton horsemen 2/3/2
wights 2/2/2

dwarfs 1/2/2 imo 2 points for 1st unit is too much

[Jeronimo]

Same as Darkmancer about Regiments. Except Dwarves to 1/2/2

About Items, I suggest following changes:

SWORDS

Grudgebringer 0 (an eye of the face for a miserable fireball)
Runefang 0 (really bad sword, only wielder hits "stronger")
Storm 1
Infernal 1
Skabskrath 1

SHIELDS

Spelleater 1
Enchanted 0
Ptolos 1
Dragonhelm 0

OTHERS

Urgok 8
Potion 1 (I do think a well used PoS in 5k Armies can kill over 2 enemy regiments, too cheap--good effect)
Heart 0 (this will help Skeleton Boom tactic, since they werent changed to be more accesible)

BANNER

Wrath 4
Arcane 1
Mork 1
Defiance 2 (come on, this cant be at 1 point costing 250gc , it was in almost every Armybuild)

MAGE

Osiris 3
Jet 1
Ashur 1

All this would be:
0 x 5
1 x 10
2 x 1
3 x 1
4 x 1
8 x 1

Thanks for reading my suggestion

[alavet]

hi, my option:

Empire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Imperial Bowmen 2/2/3 - accepted
Treeman 2/-/- - accepted
Flagellants 3/4/5 - accepted
Imperial Cannon 2/2/3 <<<
dwarf 2/1/2 <<<


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greenskins
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Orc bolt throwser 1/2/1 <<<
Troll 1/2/0 <<<due of high cost
Spider 1/1/2 - accepted <<<
Scorpion 1/1/2 - accepted <<<


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Undead
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ghouls 1/2/2 - accepted
Skeleton horsemen 2/3/2 - accepted
wraiths 4/4/4 - accepted. but still doubt its what we need.
wights 2/2/2  <<<


ITEMS/

agreed with Jero, but to consider
Skrabash is still need to consider for balance. Its very costly but very effective... 1 is a must but 2 also not too much bad..

p.s. looking at the thread star, it seems reasonable to allow more than 3 zombies/goblins per game. i.e. 1 bgk and tonns of zombies or wraiths + zombies or soemthing..
that way we can try points:

Zombies: 1/0/1/1/0
Goblins: 1/1/0/0/0

[alavet]

ANOTHER IMPORTANT RULE I WISH TO IMPLEMENT:

(besides autofire for mortairs)

to remove false/semifalse charges completely (except against manual mortair shots). i feel UD kinda weakish now mainly becase lots of peopel just negating UD "fear" check status when they charge preliminary where enemy regiment is near.

so for exampel ghouls going for attack archers and in 1-2 seconds before starting charge, but archers can start charge by themselves so no fear check will take effect.

thats weakens spiders/scorptions and whole UD army.

and i understand its part of micro and "pro" trick and i try to do it as well but its "unfair" and should be avoided...

[Jeronimo]

@Alavet: About Skabskrath, if it were at 2 points, I would always pick Banner of Defiance (if is changed to 2 points).
Its because of its cost that I keep it at 1 point. Vampire + Skabskrath (=4+1 points), but if its at 2 points... I ll prefer a Grudbringer Sword on him (=4+0 points) , and then a Potion of Strength?

Im not for the suggestion of NO false charge: One of the reasons is the UGLY pathfinding, a regiment is about 10 sec to charge a enemy at his side... the best way is to "rotate" + "false charge" if you dont want to ANGRY too much with DO slow Engine.

UD too powerful vs GS with their fear. Anyway, I havent had problems with the way we currently play, in fact, the other day I had a battle with my brother, and he did false charges, failed, and then I charged his flanks

Auto fire: I love it. Its the Kamikatapult move/Its the way to make Wraiths work properly/Its the way to deal with BGK if you army has no good melee/Manual shooting is the only way to use 100% mortars, even cannons.
Shooting at marching Troops is not easy task (except xbowen, Pistoliers). Archers are kinda useless (2 points)

I guess you have had bad Experiences. If perhaps BGK down to 8/7 (my suggestion) and mummies to 6/5/4, all those auto-fire tactics wont be so annoying. BGK after all, is a fragile Regiment and many mummies can be routed since only 1 may have BoD at 2 points ...

[Wkurwiony]

wow just wow ^^

alavet dont know why would you ever want to implement rules like that

with all your suggestions implemented for me DO would be boring as hell, as im not that into all-infantry based armies i already feels guilty when i have to do a teleport with mage and teleport back (yeah i know its unhonorable and all) but watching as my archers shoots behind enemy regiment that are moving toward me and being forced not to do anything to help this situation and than being forced for a second time to take a charge and give the bonuses that comes from it to enemy ?

maybe just propose your own ruleset instead alavet ? no arty no mages no ranged only clicking on enemy regiments allowed etc

[alavet]

//im open for other opinions as well.. :-)

as for cancel autofire it has 2 issues
1) to stop firendly fire as it at tabletop
2) and/ OR restrict manual fire shoots for mortair. because its wow deadfull

[Wkurwiony]

1) to stop firendly fire as it at tabletop

dont know if its relevant but check 4:38 :]

Braveheart:Last battle	powered by Aeva

sometimes you sacrifice few in order to save many

[Flak]

Flagellants 3/4/5 accepted
Imperial Cannon 2/2/3 accepted
dwarf 1/2/2 - suggested

Orc bolt throwser 1/2/2 accepted
Skeleton horsemen 2/2/3 - suggested
wights 2/3/2 suggested

Items
1 pts
Spelleater, Ptolos, Arcane, Mork, Jet, Ashur, Grudgebringer, Runefang, Storm, Hellfire, Skabskrath, Defience (1 reliable regiment is often needed, esp for greenskins and none flaggelant human armies)

3pts
Osiris

4pts
Wrath

8pts Horn

0 pts
Potion, Enchanted, Woe, Dragonhelm

NO Tactical rules
The player is the commander he can use his units as he wants to, it is war after all. weather that is charge due to slow moving regiments, well placed artillery and bow shots, why not try to hit the enemy? you payed to have artillery and archers, or target own regiments to kill a superior enemy like BGK

The beauty of 5k-15 is and should be that after the armies have been made you have freedom to use that army just the way you planned when you made it.

[Darkmancer]

Items & Rules

Agree with Flak except

I'd prefer HOW at 1 point (to much of a no brainer for undead), and book of ashur at 0 points - 375gp for another spell does it require a extra point when your casting at full mp cost?