[Warhammer Dark Omen Forum]

Warhammer Dark Omen Forum | Warhammer Dark Omen | Multiplayer | Rules and Standards
5000/15

[Jeronimo]

I have no idea what Jeronimo is on but can i have some?

OH! Do you want some of my pipe Darkmancer?!

Perhaps my post sounded crazy, but is real that only bembelimen can change this, since he is the "maker of the Ruleset".
We can only give opinions. Is up to him to consider (and answer) ALL these requests.

[Darkmancer]

Well duh.

[bembelimen]

[...]

So after you stated, that I, as "author of the ruleset", have no clue about it, don't go into suggestions and at all the ruleset is bullshit itself, let me tell you my point of view:

1. yeah, we all know, Fair Omen is the one and only ruleset. Absolutely freedom etc. pp.
2. First of all, when you criticize me, cause I don't respond, you should read this
3. You should also read the post itself!! Then you would recognize, that I'm NOT the author of the ruleset. The fame goes to Flak and Alavet. They did the large part of the ruleset (and imho really good)
4. Now you should count all posts, where I rejected a suggestion, when more than one person agreed with it.

If I'm serious I don't like the idea of a free troll, but give me the opinion of a third player and it's ok for me^^

5. At the troll suggestion, we had a 2:2 voting, so I asked for a 3rd pro and then I would had changed it. But I never got a 3rd pro...
6. If one person suggest a "improvement", I/we will not change it, we need at least two or more equal meanings about a point change and then we always changed it!!
7. Your post is very disrespectful, you're neither are the Messiah of the ruleset nor my personal critic!

So you can suggest here your improvements, and we'll add them for 100% if other player agree or you can support other suggestions.

We will (like usual) wait, till all suggestions are done, collect them and after we will move them to the wiki, there is no need to change the wiki after each post and reedit points after the 2nd...

Honest Analysis: This Ruleset is very far to be OK, however people still will "love it", and Im sure that even without changing anything will be voted again and again in future months

And this has only one reason: 5000/15 is easy to understand, easy to implement and easy to play. Perfect for new player and quick games with experienced player.

So and now I will go to my exam, which I have in 15 minutes (see point 2). Have a nice day read the linked posts and then you can try it again.

[Nitrox]

..Only i'm used black grails+wraiths on tourny?

[alavet]

hehe good im actually considering as an author of 5/15 )
must admit that all basics were made way before, we only helped with tweaking.

what i personally feel that some in-game restrictions could be good for better play..

for example almsot fully restrict special friendly fire (like engage your goblins with banner vs enemy grail and then shooting to grails with all your 5 archers).
the subject of discussion is special manual fire NEAR fighting regiments which i can understand for some reasons, but special friendly fire i think is too much... big discussion can be built on that.. (exception is a wraights or perhars UD army at all, cause they dont feel pain and more importantly dont have any decent range units)


another issue im dreaming of incorporating ONLY auto shoots for mortair/lobber exclusively but maybe you willnt like it at all. But from other hand with manual shots mortairs superior devastating.

[Grend]

Wrights suck

What is a Wright exactly? Is it a mix of a Wight and a Wraith?

Would have been fun to make mortars and lobbers into AI controlled allies if possible

[bembelimen]

Collection:

Empire

Imperial Bowmen 2/2/3
Treeman 2/-/-
Flagellants 3/4/4 or 5/3/3 or 3/5/5 (<= best imho?)
Imperial Cannon 1/2/2

dwarf warriors 1/1/2 - no one uses them

I think Dwarves are one of the most underestimated regiments (compared with other infantry), lack only in speed: 1/1/2 or (1/2/2)?

mercenary swordsmen 1/1/2 - as they are the weaker than greatswords and halbardiers (maybe im wrong)

mercenary swordsmen are slightly better than the other (WS)



Countess' Guard:


The 1/2/2 has one reason: the play should use countess guard+swordmen+greatswords instead of 3 swordmen for example (when all are 1/1/2)

GREENSKINS

Orc Bolt Thrower 1/2/2 or 1/1/1
Troll 2/1/0
Ghouls 1/2/2
Spider 1/1/2
Scorpion 1/1/2

UNDEAD

ghouls 1/2/2
skeleton horsemen 2/4/2 or 2/3/3 or 2/3/2 or 2/2/2
wraiths 4/4/4
Wights 2/2/2 or 2/2/3

Mummies and BGK Do not suck still they a bit ott on the points 6/5/4 & 8/10/10 instead of 7/4/4 & 9/10/10 maybe?

Mummies have a banner problem. If you give them the B.o.D. they're nearly as strong as BGK, that's why they have 7 points as first, but without banner I agree, they should have something like 4-6 points (as they have as 2nd and 3rd). It's a small dilemma. Any suggestions?

So I hope I didn't forget something...please comment/suggest

[Darkmancer]

Imperial Bowmen: 2/2/3 - fine
Treeman 2/ -  was dubious but thinking about it fine
Flagellants 3/5/5 - def this one imo
Imperial Cannon - 1/2/2 - def too low, WK's roadbloak with boltthrowers? imangine with something usful like cannon - 1/3/3 or 2/2/3 be nicer
Dwarves - i'd go for 1/2/2
merc swors - agree stick with 1/2/2

Note although the points changes above are fair to the units, empire atm is very points restricted, alot more 1 pointers make it alot easier to constuct powerful 1 pointer army sets with plenty left over for powerful units - empire might be to powerful?
----

Greenskins
Ghouls - whoops :p
Troll - thinking about it why's the first one 2 pts?  maybe 1/1/2, 1/2/1, 1/2/0?  I always find trolls quite expensive as they tend to die off easily
scorp & spid 1/1/2 fine

-----

Ghouls 2 1/2/2 agree
wights - 2/3/3 - def
wraiths 4/4/4 - hmm very exspensive skittish units 4 fine for now
skele horse - pain in the arse to value - either scare the enemy of disolve quickly all for 840 gp? 2/3/2, or 2/2/3?

Re Mumies i'd go for 6, - by giving them the B.O.D your removing it use by wights/ghouls, plus at the end of the day with movement 3 you can out manoeuvre/run them with almost everything, i use 2 points for an average unit (1 pointers to build basic army), mummies worth 3/4 units? sounds about right to me.

[Wkurwiony]

I think Dwarves are one of the most underestimated regiments (compared with other infantry), lack only in speed: 1/1/2 or (1/2/2)?

Yes they have good stats except movement, but m3 makes them only a defensive unit and also loosing a melee fight equals loosing this unit in battle, they cant run and regroup as other m4 units, with their m3 they will be slaughtered by chasing regiment

The 1/2/2 has one reason: the play should use countess guard+swordmen+greatswords instead of 3 swordmen for example (when all are 1/1/2)

Im not saying they all should get 1/1/2 but the weakest of the 3, and on paper yes swordsmen got 1 point more in WS, but halbardiers and greatswords got bonuses from weapons what makes them better in battle imo. And making that unit 1/1/2 would give player 4 cheap infantries instead of 3 ;] but i can live whitout that

Orc Bolt Thrower 1/2/2 or 1/1/1

here ofc my answer will be biased as my favourite armybuilt is based around bolt thrower, so 1/1/1 if anything, 1/2/2 is too much imo

Flagellants 3/4/4 or 5/3/3 or 3/5/5 (<= best imho?)

maybe 3/4/5 ?

[lordbraprus]

who buy imperial bowmen i mean 2 2 3 ? they should be 2/1/2 or something  like that but 5 points in total.

bolt tower 1/1/1 yeee
trolls are okay because they are coward like any orc unti and if they rout , they just get masacred.

countless guard 1/1/2

and another thing is, i can not believe skeleton archers with their lack in all stats, and skeleton warrios , both with skeleton flag that make them as paper, are so expensive in points, you should 1/1/2 infantery and 2/1/2 archery or any mi x but 4 and 5 points


ahhh another thingggg  if you vote and play 5/15 okay, but can i suggest to fix the  ogres, wraiths and zombi erros ? cause fear, dont get destry if routed and inmune to fear. in taht way it would be nicer to play 5/15 ...

[Jeronimo]

My apologyses Bembelimen. Didnt remember about your current situation with University. I want to share something with Items, which havent be touched:

I suggest making some Items cost - points or 0 points. Many times you waste points or gold in Items which are not very useful (you would prefer 1 extra regiment).
Was shown in Tournament that preferrible Item with 1 point is always Defiance...

Meanwhile all Regiments will keep their "positive" points value adding x/x/x, with no negative points to make armybuilds easier. Most Items were the problem to solve (to give some attraction when you seek for options).

SWORDS

Grudgebringer -1
Runefang 0
Storm 0
Infernal 0
Skabskrath 1

SHIELDS

Spelleater 1
Enchanted -1
Ptolos 0
Dragonhelm -1

OTHERS

Urgok 10
Potion 1
Heart 0

BANNER

Wrath 6
Arcane 0
Mork 0
Defiance 2

MAGE

Osiris 4
Jet 0
Ashur 0

To sum up:
-1 x 3
0 x 9
1 x 3
2 x 1
4 x 1
6 x 1
10 x 1

EXPLANATIONS

Urgok, Wrath: I guess typical will be -2 use (Dragonhelm + Enchanted Shield), thats why the Items like Wrath or Urgok will end with 4 and 8, with the GOOD diference that you will pay more gold for them (in consideration with old 5k/15).

Staff of Osiris: With the "negative combo" will cost 2, however since this means like 250gc + (250+375), paying later 4 points for Vampire... we can say is better balanced.

Potion of Strength: Why costs 1 point? This is because when the low amount of units in the original game, a average powerful regiment with it, will have enough time to crash at least 2 enemy regiments. Its preety good, I prefer a Potion better to a Sword (relationship: gold--effect).

I think you dont need more explanations, but feel free to ask Jeronimo.
The total -3 points that New System guarantees can also be used for purchasing around +2 regiments or a expensive one (oh yes! I want back that 3rd Flagellant!)

[Flak]

im sorry Jeronimo i dont agree with this at all
Armies with too many Items will lose the balance of the game,
you may have a point in inventing some package deals on items but not extra points

[Jeronimo]

Cost 0: I think this way many armies which have gold left (after spending on regiments) will have something to invest in.

In my opinion Flak, there is NO Balance if you have 500 gold and prefer always a Goblin Infantry +F (450 gold: 1 point) instead of a Ptolos Shield (500 gold: 1 point).

Having as many regiments as you can is always the choice. However with 0 points to most Items, it wont be "Over Itemed" because it depends on the gold left: many items = poor army (bad armybuild).

Also this provides a chance to have some magical proteccion agasint Wrath/Urgok, other strong effects, if you pay 500 gold for every proteccion (Spelleater 1 point).

Cost -1: The idea is to waste your money in order to gain 1 extra point = 625gc.

With things how are now... will you ever see a Grudgebringer Sword in game? (at same 625gc, I will prefer a Infernal Sword 100! times).

About Dragonhelm (250) and Enchanted (375), they are not worth of existance.
However we can do them a together package, having both at -1 point. 375+250=625gc

[Darkmancer]

I've been creating armies with Jeronimos suggested system, it doesn't really work, the only boost it gives are to low cost & high point units, namely ones with flagellant & motars, maybe just undead armies with mummies or BGK.

Now you might have an arguement for making POS, Encharted Shield, dragon helm & grudgebringer sword 0 points, but I don't think your system works well Jero.

[Jeronimo]

True thing: The Tables points have their "free regiments" which cost 0. Thats why certain Items give same benefits (cost 0 or -1).

Do you edit "Quantity" armies? Use "0" benefits of purchasing multiply troops.
The gold runs out at making large numbers of soldiers. Perhaps few Items...

Do you edit "Quality" armies? Use "0" and "-1" benefits of buying cheap pointed Items.
The gold runs out at buying Items with the gold left. Surely few Regiments.
See 5k/15 videos and check that in DO quantity beats quality (if both play similar).

Its working Darkmancer,

GS get benefits, the big'uns for example... because are too pointed... "who will pay for 3 big uns?"---In battle they will be owned by large numbers (but now you can give them Swords, something IS something).