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Crusoe
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« on: August 15, 2009, 05:26:14 PM »

too many rules for different modes of playing; all modes requires a different point cost for a same army and so on...

i still suggets to create a unique table point, isnt so easy but its the only for doing an order. This way you r gonna fill about 100 wiki pages and its gonna turn confused and hard for explain and understand for new players, u should do an order now for prevent that.

------------------
Elite forces:

Main idea: if i got a winner 9k/30 army i would like to use it in further games using my earned gold and items.

Problems:
a) This kind of fights usually r unfair but i think there is a way to balance them.
b) Armies edited CAN'T grow.

Solution: mots probably all player has more than 1 army for set, in this example three 9 gold armies. Obviously the player armies has different names for recongnition (names like AAA9k30, BBB9k30, CCC9k30).
   If army BBB9k30 WINS a battle could take all the gold and experience collected for doing some arrangements and repositions (hire new soldiers, new armies, new items, etc.) BUT, this NEW ARRANGED AND EXPERIENCED ARMY should be saved us:

              BBB9k30 elite0

BBB       = specific name assigned for player, identification (ex.: archers, longrange, monsters, mpro, etc.)
9k         = gold spent during the creation of the army
30         = army limited to 30 points from the UNIQUE TABLE POINTS.
elite      = indicates that the original 9k30 army has been arranged and its experienced (its a winner 9k30 army)
0 (cero) = this number indicates how many WINNER FIGHTS does this army has. In this case the player has won a battle against another 9k30 army and surely he has decided to use the experience and gold earned but HE HAS NEVER USED THIS ARMY BEFORE and its looking for another similar army for battle against.

so, a player could have armies like: HHH5k15 elite2 ; DDD9k30 elite0 ; SSS9k30 elite4)

Special rules (for debate):
a) only similar armies can match each other (ex.: YYY9k30 elite3 v/s PPP9k30 elite3) [both elite3]
b) when player decides to do some arrangements whit gold earned he might preserve the original one
    (ex.: army based 3 canions, 2 mortars, 1 B mage = 6 troops in total
           so, he can FREELY BUY UP TO 4 TROOPS FOR ADDING NO MATTER THEIR LEVEL,
           he can FREELY ADD ARMOR,
           he can FREELY BY ITEMS,
           he CANT replace the original squads (3 canions, 2 mortars, 1 B mage)
           he CANT use an item more than once (ex.: MAX 1 HORN IN ALL ARMY)

Gameplay: in an eventual battle (ex.: YYY9k30 elite3 v/s PPP9k30 elite3), the winner battle wins an ELITE UPGRADE and the looser one stands on his level:

                        if YYY9k30 elite3 WINS ---------> YYY9k30 elite4----> he can do some NEW ARRANGEMENTS
                        if YYY9k30 elite3 LOSE ---------> continues been YYY9k30 elite3 (original settings must be preserved)

Supervision: this kind of playing is based on honor and honestly, but it could be supervised too !!
                 players could POST his original armybuilds, thats all.

Esencials:  
a) UNIQUE TABLE POINTS
« Last Edit: August 15, 2009, 05:33:53 PM by Crusoe » Logged

bembelimen
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« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2009, 11:41:15 AM »

Hello

I think I don't get the point. If you play a "normal" game you (and your opponent) choose which rule you will use, not the wiki and not the homepage. Ghabry and me played a lot with experienced armies and entitled it in a similar way you suggested even though 3k/10 etc. existed.

i still suggets to create a unique table point


That sounds interesting, but it will be hard to implement, cause for example the treeman: in a 3k battle he is to expensive in gold, so you can give him less points, but in a 9k or unlimited game he is a real killer and needs more points. Same with other units. But don't get me wrong, I don't wanna stop you, I'm looking really forward, if you could create a playable unique pointlist for all possible battles. That would be really cool.

Supervision: this kind of playing is based on honor and honestly, but it could be supervised too !!
                 players could POST his original armybuilds, thats all.


That could be a problem too. Beside olly not much player posts screenshots (it's a great pity) and the army builds forum is very empty if there is no tournament. If you have a good idea how we can motivate the player posting more army builds, feel free to say it.

So I hope, this post doesn't sound to negative. I would really like to see a rule/point list with your suggestions, but I also think, that there will be a lot of obstacles which you/we have to overcome.
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Crusoe
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« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2009, 05:58:50 AM »

hi bembelimen

The point/objetive is to resume all rules in an unique point table doing it easier to understand the system varieties and doing information faster in accesibility. The unique table not neccesary needs to be readjusted in the specific amount of points setted, maybe a table that combines all modes and points could be the solution.

This way, players could go directly to a wikipage that has all the necessary information instead of reading four.

"go to this link for 5k games" "go to this other for 7k"  "go to..... " too many goes to !!! (factions included)

The other point/objetive is try to simplify the points so the table could be resumed and more practical for armybuilds.

Finally, the elite forces concept is a way to incentivate the use of upgrade armies in game.
-----------------------

I did a suggestion before that had many errors or wasnt so adapted for the different systems but not enough people did his commentaries or sugestions so i lost the motivation; in this case is the same, if i got no enough help in suggestions, commentaries, sugerences, corrections, etc, i'm not gonna pull up this topics.

......but im not the only one who can do this and in fact, there are much better and dedicated players that could do it.
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alavet
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« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2009, 07:21:04 AM »

so from what i got from reading you're mainly talking about another method of playing, not about changing system with rules, right?
i dont see any problems, and more important, i can't restrict you to play with such mode (lol) so why not to play it? sure, keep your winning armies and find an opponent who will do so.

but for me personally unfortunately i dont see future in "experienced" armies untill its highly balanced from original version. with current version greenskins & undeads stands no chance in surviving against good balanced empire legions, because they have superior artillery & archers.

and i saw many battles where is only few units from regiments get alive and everything other deads (which makes unable to refill and go futher). and even if you manage to win in huge 9k battle you might possible win not more than maybe 6k max (i highly doubt in that, i think its much closer to 3,5k).

sadly but ture - evolution is for humans :-)

however maybe highly experienced units might save it up? i dont know, maybe at 2nd and 3rd stage of "evolution" your army will suck but maybe at the 4th stage it will grow due of high experineced armies; but i dont believe in it.



what about join us in conquest and see how it goes.
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sipax
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« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2009, 08:38:13 AM »

There is few number of players. If you will have "elite 4" or better army, it would be hard to search opponent.
And there are also huge difference in Players experiences. Good players will create UBER army in this system
(because only them can win with half army, or about it).

Reqiments upgrades it's level too long. It will die before it im think.


Its good idea, but game, as i think, have not soo good balance of races. (imo)
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bembelimen
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« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2009, 01:46:16 PM »

The point/objetive is to resume all rules in an unique point table doing it easier to understand the system varieties and doing information faster in accesibility. The unique table not neccesary needs to be readjusted in the specific amount of points setted, maybe a table that combines all modes and points could be the solution.

It sounds good, but also very hard to implement. If you have the time, could you start a sketch of it to see if it works?

This way, players could go directly to a wikipage that has all the necessary information instead of reading four.

"go to this link for 5k games" "go to this other for 7k"  "go to..... " too many goes to !!! (factions included)

We have also an overview page in the wiki Wink

I did a suggestion before that had many errors or wasnt so adapted for the different systems but not enough people did his commentaries or sugestions so i lost the motivation; in this case is the same, if i got no enough help in suggestions, commentaries, sugerences, corrections, etc, i'm not gonna pull up this topics.

I think the problem was, that the whole text was in spanish(?) and google translate sucks very hard. So I needed different translation tools and a lot of time to understand the whole thing.

......but im not the only one who can do this and in fact, there are much better and dedicated players that could do it.

I bet, if you start the whole stuff, other player will join and help.
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Crusoe
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« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2009, 06:50:52 PM »

so from what i got from reading you're mainly talking about another method of playing, not about changing system with rules, right?

Right ! its a some kind of contuination of the original modes doing possible the further use of winner armies, items and gold.

The system preserves balance because u must preserve the "regiment base" and u only can match similar armies.

No such matter if u cannot refill; THATS THE IDEA !!!, only better armies (players) can win and survive for be upgraded and thats not all, the army must win in good enough conditions that makes possible and rentable to refill, rearmy and requip otherwise thats never gonna be an elite army and u cant win such privilege.

I havent read so much about conquest but the few that i have read seems very interesting and its pretty tempter but i cant join due to my local timezone and other things relative to time disposal, thats the same problem that limits me for joining you in tournaments and i prefer to not compromise because i know there are at leat 90% of probabilities that i will not be there at time. Sorry for the inconvenience.

If you will have "elite 4" or better army, it would be hard to search opponent.
Reqiments upgrades it's level too long. It will die before it im think.

I had 3 or 4 3k10 armies somewhere, in fact using a normal an unrulled 3k army is hard to find and interested opponent.
I believe that its easier to find interested opponents for using their elite forces that players using 3k armies (for example) and the requirement upgrade isnt too long !! ; ITS TOO HARD , thats completely different. If u win in good enough conditions for 3 consecutive times u can hand an elite force 2 inmediatly. If u die or win in bad conditions, just do the same that u are been doing all this time, dont save the changes and continue trying using your army against another players or simply dismiss it and edit another.

Finally, i did the translation in the original topic inside the forum bembelimen, so it was in english. its very difficult for me to do this work in english, takes me 3 more times than normal. This forum response has took me about 45 minutes.
Well, to much words and no enough work, ill try doing a new table that combines 3k,5k,7k and 9k as a resume of all your work, but surely needs some little adjusts.
Pls understand that the original objetive is not balance the game so dont waste your time talking me about "cavalry isnt so...  the mage has too many...  my little pony has more range....  bla bla bla"

the table must resume all rules in an unique point table doing it easier to understand the system varieties and doing information faster in accesibility.

I DO THE TABLE FORMAT

ALL OF US (YOU) DO THE POINTS ADJUTMENTS.
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alavet
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« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2009, 06:12:29 AM »

i didnt actually udnerstand about "UNIQUE TABLE POINTS" (i think everything its clear - you promote system of expreienced armies, which can be based on the any point system like 3/10, 5/15 or 9/30 rules which are currently in good condition - why you want to chaneg it?)

!!! but my little pony has more range....  Cheesy:D
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« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2009, 07:11:56 AM »

Crusoe! My South American Neighbour. ¿Que hacés? (argentinian greeting) Grin

Since Fair Omen wont be widely played after his first Tournament, I will help you to create a UNIQUE table point.
I see many obstacles in your way: there are already some tables made and people use it without complaining.
You clearly notice this in players like Alavet, who consider the currently tables in "good condition".

First im going to predict your future: NO ONE will play the system of experienced armies or will have a brief success.
I dont want to be rude but I know about humans spirits... People already have their minds in the Conquest game (with experience), Reality says is a hard task to change an average player habits: this happens in all games, not only here.

Cheer up! Hope is the last thing one loses. I found a way to call their attention. Let me say I dont find currently tables attractive, what is more... they should be replaced for what im gonna propose.

Lets analize before modifying: 3k/10, 5k/15, 9k/30 (What happened with 7k !?!?!?!?)
You easily realize that 6k would be 20 points. (10 - 30)
I remember, when I saw 9k table for first time, that there were many points modificators (if you had more regiments of same type, if you wanted them with experience) and then super expensive items like horn of Urgok at 15 points.

Crusoe... Points tables cant balance the game, you already said it (Evolution Experience Cost is too expensive to be used with any gold limit, many duplicated regiments, Mercenary Oges wihtout cause fear, etc, etc)

In next post you shall meet the New Skeleton, Item points and some Regiments values, the other Regiments are up to you. I leave in your hands a strong base to complete your unique table points (truely Unique) Wink
« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 08:16:18 AM by lordbraprus » Logged

ito maquiesves
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« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2009, 07:54:29 AM »

Here we go! Table points will be based on multipliers of 4.
3k/12, 5k/20, 7k/28, 9k/36    Middle point 6k would be 24 points.

First decide which Gold Limit are you going to use and pay attention to the table.
Points evolution: a Experienced Regiment will cost +50% rounded up considering the basic points cost.
1/+1, 2/+1, 3/+2, 4/+2, 5/+3, 6/+3, 7/+4, 8/+4, 9, 10/+5   These will be the values.
In your system, no one will have to pay extra points for repeating a Regiment: Makes it easier to employ.

Items points
Horn of Urgok (12), Banner of Wrath (6), Ptolos Shield/Spelleater Shield/Staff of Osiris (3), Runic Sword/Morko's Banner/Wand of Jet (2), Others (1), Dragonhelm (0)
You will notice that Horn of Urgok cant be used in 3k armies and occupies the third part of 9k armies, is perfectly measured. Wand of Jet at 2 points (at last a bit of common sense), Potion of Strenght at 1 point (well priced), and Dragonhelm 0 points (bad priced)
I can be explaining long time about the Items with 2 or 3 points cost (you know, is about combinations or bad priced always, but believe me that is ALLRIGHT, cant be better, changes to Items will destroy balance)

Regiments initial points
Monsters: Giant Scorpion, Gigantic Spider (1), Troll (3), Treeman (9)
Wizards: Goblin Shaman (3), Orc Shaman, Ice Mage (4), Bright Wizard, Necromancer (5), Vampire (7)
Artillery: Ballista (2), Cannon (3), UD catapult (4), Orc Lobber (5), Mortar (6)
Empire Ranged: Imperial Bowmen (3), Mercenary Crossbowen (4), Outlaw Pistoliers (6), Sylvan Archers (7)
Others: Wights (4), Mummies (8 ), Black Grail Knights (10), Mercenary Ogres (5), Flagellants (5)

For example Flagellants will have these values: 5/11, where 5 is basical (with 2 skulls), and 11 becomes from 5+3+3 (with 4 skulls). Always respect how they evolve in gold and make the same with the points evolution.

What do you think? This is a start. If you want to see it finished, complete the missing Regiments.
Best wishes Crusoe. I like your initiative.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 08:04:41 AM by lordbraprus » Logged

ito maquiesves
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« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2009, 09:01:27 AM »

Previous messages: I forgot to say "Hello. Im Jeronimo" (It's the phrase that means you are going to read a very important post)  Grin
Once more, good luck Crusoe.
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« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2009, 08:15:29 PM »

hola vecino !!!

Le voy a responder en español porque escribir en ingles me sale mas tortuoso, por lo demás nos entenderemos mejor y mas rapido   Grin Grin Grin

Comienzo por agradecer de antemano tu interés y ayuda, confieso que de flojo y pajero no he hecho nada aún y que honestamnete me desinflo a veces debido a la falta de interés de las demás personas.

Me ha costado un mundo darle a entender a estos gueones jajajaja  que no es de mi interés modificar los puntos que ellos asignaron, ellos tienen mas experiencia y llevan mucho mas tiempo jugando, eso sin contar que se merecen todos los créditos del mundo porque han logrado formar una comunidad muy entusiasta, trabajadora y enviciada en dark omen.

La webada que yo quiero es hacer solo una tabla, una única tabla que resuma todo lo que han hecho porque al igual que tú, al ver por primera ves la tabla de 9k30, quedé mas enredado que las rechucha y me enfermó tener que estar viendo diferentes páginas, tablas , reglamentos , etc, todos dispersos por distintos lados en donde el exceso de información hace aún mas enredado el asunto. Resumir la tabla al menos lograría ordenar un poco el asunto, si la hacemos bien debería ser una gran ayuda para todos.

Si se trata de puntajes para asignar, lamentablemente logré descifrar un método matemático basado simplemente en proporciones que logra distribuir los puntajes de manera equitativa a medida que vas subiendo de 3 a 9k pero como dije, lamentablemente no me pescaron ni para el reverendo gueveo. La razón Huh???  para poder mantener la proporcionalidad tuve que cambiar algunos puntajes de las tablas originales y parece que a los niñitos no les gustó.  jejeje

la info en detalle aún está visible y la puedes encontrar en:

http://forum.dark-omen.org/rules-and-standards/5k15-revision-7k21-9k27-plus-elite-mode-fundaments-t302.0.html

la misma info pero en español y con los gráficos mas claros y visibles en:

http://mausoleojuegos.iespana.es/  dentro de esa dirección pincha en Anexo1: Warhammer: Dark Omen

La aparición de 9k30 fué posterior a la info que está en los links asi que hay cosas que no estan consideradas como el uso de tropas de nivel 2 o superior.

Debido a que te has dado el trabajo de calcular algunos puntajes y otras cosas mas, voy a terminar la tabla y la voy a postiar para que podamos revisarla y hacer las modificaciones que sean necesarias tratando de no alterar los puntajes que ya estan asignados ..... pero a mas de alguna webadita habrá que pegarle una pincelada
Consideraré las propuestas que has hecho puesto que por ahí, leyendo a la rápida, vi algo que me interesó bastante.

gracias por desearme suerte, suerte a ud tambien vecino

Posted by Alavet: why you want to change it?

R: i have never said that
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« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2009, 08:29:38 PM »

Crusoe, read the forum rules. Englisch only!

Sonst schreibe ich ab jetzt meine Texte auch in Deutsch, damit ich sie besser formulieren kann!
« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 08:41:19 PM by Ghabry » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2009, 07:41:26 AM »

Hello. Im Jeronimo. "Che amigo, ¿no me da una moneda?" (argentinian poor class greeting)  Grin

Crusoe, I read the web page. Nice review. There were lots of things I never liked of table points, thats why I started my "own business".

3/10, 5/15, 9/30: horrible distribution, doesnt follow any mathematical rule (and strategy games are based on that)
In the 3/12, 5/20, 7/28, 9/36 you perfectly notice 1k = 4points , so is possible to say "Ey buddy! lets make a 7k battle! Ok MY friend, host game now!!" (this conversation never happened)

Equal regiments cost more or less points: I dont like it, just complicates and thats why 3 columns appear in every Race Table. 5,6,4    1,1,2   2,1,2   1,1,0    1,0,1 (Zombies! Zombies! BUY 1 and get another for freee!)
Come on! Bad idea of making OFFERS. A player would think "I will buy 2 zombies and not fall in the trap of buying a 3rd one, I am very intelligent, I know how to make armies" (this thought... never happened?)
In the current 9/30 I like the Wights experienced point cost, but... can I pay 8400gc? Thats the irony of the system.

Items: pfff, I explained in previous posts a lot of their weak points.
Potion of strenght must always cost 1 point: Why 0? Just because costs 125gc?
Skabskrath Sword never must cost more than 1 point.. its bad priced, doesnt deserve to cost 750gc... then you have to see that many give to this Item high points values only because in original game costs a lot.

There is so much to critizice Smiley . I understand that everyone gives his best. My purpose is to open eyes.
Make people realize that all things they just accept as correct and balanced, maybe arent.

As you say Crusoe, they have the attention of everyone only because are Dark Omen experts, but... are they experts at making systems, building balance, manipulating numbers?
I read in a post of yours, to make members accept any Rule or System, this must appear in a Wiki article.
Who guarantees you, that the table is going to born, will displace currently 3/10, 5/15, 9/30?

Those who you call Experts wont accept it. All their work displaced for a unique table made by Crusoe?
With Fair Omen is different because requires a files change and doesnt need any extra rule, besides that has more variated head numbers and correct gold costs.

Dont give up. Look at me: Still trying to change the world in all topics.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 08:08:27 AM by lordbraprus » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2009, 04:29:56 PM »

Previous messages: I forgot to say "Hello. Im Jeronimo" (It's the phrase that means you are going to read a very important post)  Grin

I would still suggest, that you register your own account to see directly who is who.

Comienzo por agradecer de antemano tu interés y ayuda, confieso que de flojo y pajero no he hecho nada aún y que honestamnete me desinflo a veces debido a la falta de interés de las demás personas.

Nope we (ok, I can only speak for me, so I) didn't lose interest, but I think, that you have to start the table. I can tell you, how the other rule sets were created:
  • 3000/10 - I sit several weeks with pen and paper and created the ruleset. I had the idea in mind and tried to create it playable. After I have finished the whole(!!) ruleset, I posted my suggestions and we started to improve it.
  • 5000/15 - I took the 3k/10 point list and tried to improved it. After(!!) that, I made a forum post for suggestions. There in particular alavet and Flak improved it by themself and posted their whole (I would say nearly new) point list, which we implemented.
  • Factons - DJLeBomb made this ruleset also with pen and paper first. When he finished, he posted the whole (finished) list (btw. it's no point list...). And then we could improved it.
  • 9000/30 - Flak made this list also with pen and paper private and then he posted the finished list.

I hope you see, that you need a playable base first, before you can involve the community. I'm really looking forward to see a unique point list, but I also think, that you have to post a finish suggestion here in the forum and in english first, before we can start discussing.

Me ha costado un mundo darle a entender a estos gueones jajajaja  que no es de mi interés modificar los puntos que ellos asignaron

Nope I never thought that, and you're welcome to make your own system. We only define the rules once per month and that is Saturday from 5pm-8pm while the voltunary tournament, on all other fights you can use every agreement you like.

Si se trata de puntajes para asignar, lamentablemente logré descifrar un método matemático basado simplemente en proporciones que logra distribuir los puntajes de manera equitativa a medida que vas subiendo de 3 a 9k pero como dije, lamentablemente no me pescaron ni para el reverendo gueveo. La razón Huh???  para poder mantener la proporcionalidad tuve que cambiar algunos puntajes de las tablas originales y parece que a los niñitos no les gustó.  jejeje

Show me one post post, where someone said, that he don't like a new rule....I only see one problem with the mathematic method: It ignore the gc values. In a low gc fight, the cost of a regiment is more important than in a unlimited gc fight, so you have to improve the formula in that way, that you calculate also the cost+the gc limit ingame.

So I hope, that's enough feedback, and I hope my "feedback" will not stop you from creating this list. Good work!
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