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Author Topic: 5k/15 revision (7k/21 - 9k/27) plus Elite mode - fundaments  (Read 2648 times)
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Crusoe
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« on: April 20, 2009, 09:20:33 PM »

I know that im not an eminence on Darko as all of u mates, in fact i have been playing paused and most players doesnt knows me, but i have been studing seriously multiplayer rules because i have encountered a very interesting mode of playing.
I have studied the system rules and i believe that and found enough fundaments for doing some modifications. The big problem for me is the language, im a sapanish speaker so im apologize for have been done this article in my native languaje.

U can find the specific article in:

http://mausoleojuegos.iespana.es/

inside there, u must apply Anexo1:Warhammer Dark Omen

Pls, use google translate system or another media.
--------------------------
suggestions??
« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 10:44:54 PM by olly » Logged

olly
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« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2009, 01:08:09 AM »

Translated Site:
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fmausoleojuegos.iespana.es%2FDarko.html&sl=es&tl=en&history_state
0=es
|en|


Excellent and detailed work Crusoe,
if I understand correctly,the main ideas are:

-use an unique table points for 5, 7 and 9k games

3000/10 was originaly created to provide some basic structure and for more
Honourable armies to be made but also to make the Battles Smaller. Apart
from starting at the beginning with 3k and working our way upto 5, 7 and
9k, we also wanted to provide a good training ground for new memebers to
learn and gain experience, without feeling over whelmed by a Large scale 9k
Battle (wanted to keep 3k and 5k small). We all felt happy with 3000/10 and
it proved to make for some great Tournament Battles but as we all worked our
way into 5k, it became apparent that to make 7k different from both 5k and 9k,
wouldn't be a simple case of proportionaly scaling up the current Points system.
So I was pleased to see that u have covered the whole range, including 7k and 9k.

Smiley



-the 5k/15 playlability must be preserved in later games

I completely agree, we all appreciate the efforts that have already gone
into 3 and 5k Rules and apart from minor changes, based on playing each
other and new tests/information, they have served their primary purpose,
no one has made really dishonourable armies and it has kept it small and
enjoyable Battles. So your guides and new Point Tables should prove for
some fantastic 7k and 9k tests. Maybe we can have regular mini tournaments
to test all these recent and different great new Rules Sets, to evolve and
enhance them.



-all troops and items conbinations must be posible inside

I know what u mean about excluding Black Grail KNights from having the Horn
but I was championing this cause, as I feel that there is a difference
between Skelton Horsemen having Horn and killing them in Melee' (if possible)
and trying to do the same against BGK. Even if they did the same tactic with
Skeleton Horsemen, there would at least be more troops in the field to chase
and divert thier micromanegent away from Skeleton Cavarly.
(If this turns out not to be the case then my second judgement against them
being even 15 points together and not 16, would be that it would encourage
dishonourable behavoiur (my personal view) if my opponent spent all their
money on BGK and Horn. I wouldn't enjoy and have fun, if i reguraly faced
them.(Speaking from a 3000/10 and 5000/10 point of view as I need more Anti
Magic Items (Spell Shield Eater, and Banners(Arcane, Morks or Defiance or a
Mage to  Dispell,Not as bad a problem in 9k) on Troops, to Negate the effects
of the Horn. The problem is that you don't know, you are going to face them and
cater by having obvious countermeasures.


-beside that, rule must continue to be restricting the multi games

I agree, all the community has benefited from recent Rule sets and any that can apply to
7k and 9k are greatly received.



-Elite Troop

Very intersting concept,usually assosiated with Online campaigns but as it
is optional and upto players to arrange before hand, then it could be fun.

I think the problem would be that to gain experience would mean to win
and therefore become stronger, making other players unlikely to win and
gain their own experience, unless we have many pools of players. To incorporate
this idea which may make it more of an online campaign idea,it has been my long
term dream to host an Ultimate Undead army (that includes Dread King, doesn't require
 opponent to Mod anything , since DK already exists in single player game, same for Hand
of Nagesh,(maybe fixed DOC111). Then players could face me and try "beating the Dread king"
and as along as they receive lots of gold at the end of the match (when they probably loose
but DK is beatable as we know Wink ) they can use the Gold to replenish their army and providing 
they Tactical retreat their most precious Troops from being totally annilated, then they will keep
the experience and just require money to be spent on them. This provides Excellent training and
once u do beat the Dread King , then u can become the Host of The Ultimate Undead Dread King
Army that others can face. (Early concept ideas)



-looking4 the way to use other lvls(lv 2,3,4) of troops

Intending to keep 3 and 5000/15 different in gameplay styles to 9k, the
decison was made to keep 3 and 5k to all Level 1, and eventualy allow 9k to
use all other Levels, Armour included. However, i can appreciate how a different
set of rules will have to be applied to eventual 7 and 9k, since mutiplying and scaling
from 5000/15 (where it works well) will lead to problems.



Very Inspiring work and ideas for balancing 7k and 9k,
that we will enjoy testing and playing through in persuit of hapiness.

Thanks

Smiley



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and back in Nuln, the ageing Graf Berhardt smiled his secret smile of pride whenever he heard the latest tales of his eldest son's ever growing chain of glorious victories -(sothr manual)
Crusoe
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« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2009, 07:07:31 AM »

This is a proyect for all, in fact there are some things that we must discuss:

-use an unique table points for 5, 7 and 9k games
its OK! , for more detailed explanation this conclusion has the current logic fundament (using 5k/15 like "base system"):
5000 = 15 points
6000 = 18 points
7000 = 21 points
8000 = 24 points
9000 = 27 points
10000= 30 points

or;

3000 ------> 5000 (its up a 66%)       =       10 ------> 15 (its up a 50%) [3K/10 - 5k/15]
5000 ------> 7000 (its up a 40%)       =       15 ------> 21 (its up a 40%)
7000 ------> 9000 (its up a 28%)       =       21 ------> 27 (its up a 28%)

5x2=10  and 15x2=30 so, its obviously that 21 and 27 are the settings for 7 & 9K games (porcentage/proporcionality);
so 27 is the max amount of points for use in rules (theorically this should maintain the playlability that 5k/15 has)


-the 5k/15 playlability must be preserved in later games
just explained before and thats why we need an unique table

-all troops and items conbinations must be posible inside
Non of this "fundaments" should be applyed extrictly, this is a comunnity of DO gamers and all of u can/could do your own propositions. BGK and horns could be perfectly banned on 5k and 7k games, not so in 9k games.
Finally....  u got reason Olly, its not necessary to set a max of 15 points between troops and items; the sum of points between troops and items do not must exceed 27 points.
However, its more practical to do some "specific rules" for 5 and 7k games than points adjustments to table.

-beside that, rule must continue to be restricting the multi games
If all of u are agree using 9k/27 system (assuming that the system has been previously tested and approved), then the unique table must have at least "some points over the maximun of 27 points deduced for 9k battles", otherwise the rule isnt effective and vanish.
In my personal opinion the unique table should have at least 5 points over the maximun; that means 32 points and the actual table only has 25 points for greenskins.
If we made some adjusts for greenskins table, then we must do some "retouching" for the rest of tables.
Nobody sais than 5 points over 27 its the ideal amount, the job to decide that its yours; could be 1, 2, 3.... 731354635157, etc

-Elite Troop
all of us wanna fight using our experienced regimments!!!
Like u said its only a concept, i dont got any mayor idea of how to introduce this into rules but we must find out a way.
Elite troops could be used freely, using all the items colected on winned battles and our winner troops.
Just a blurred idea.
5k/15 winner armies should be saved as "elite armie-A", that way u got 5k/15 unexperienced one for tournaments and the experienced one for special battles; special battles needs some unknown rules.
Main idea: 5k/15 uses lvl1 unarmored troops, capped and items restricted. Should be very funny to own an 25k gold army full of magic items and using troops that once a time were lvl1. (at least for me)

"we fight for glory, gold and items, those are our prizes on battlefield"


-looking4 the way to use other lvls(lv 2,3,4) of troops
If we find a way inserting ruled elite forces on multi games, then we will not need to find a way for using lvl 2 and up troops. We must find a way to use our experienced troops growing from lvl 1.
Why does we need a rule for this??
Like Olly said: the problem would be that to gain experience would mean to win
and therefore become stronger, making other players unlikely to win and
gain their own experience



Thx for helping Olly, its difficult for me to explain members all this detailed and do not lost/confuse the main idea.


"no one has made really dishonourable armies and it has kept it small and
enjoyable Battles
"
......completely agree
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Mikademus
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« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2009, 12:39:24 AM »

I have read this thread and your suggestion with great interest, and you raise a number of good and important points. Could I encourage you to create a rules article in the wiki and move your tables and points into that, and update it as the discussion unfolds here?
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Crusoe
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« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2009, 06:27:47 PM »

Hi Mikademus, this is what i think:
(still more explained for the rest of the community)

I can write a Wiki article including some new rules and improvements for discussion and the way to insert Elites Troops but i still dont know if players have understood that THEY HAVE TO SET THE SPECIFIC POINTS TO THE UNIQUE TABLE (just like they are doing in 5000/15 topic  http://forum.dark-omen.org/multiplayer/500015-t252.0.html ) but considering a min of 32 points in total for every race.

They r doing a great work on that forum, i have seen some power/comparission graphics and more things but seems that they still dont understand that table must be adjusted to an specific parameter.

Here the main topics are:

- THE UNIQUE TABLE PARAMETERS and not the specific points.
- IMPLEMENTATION OF ELITE FORCES.
- ITEMS POINT TABLE.

THE UNIQUE TABLE PARAMETERS - explanation
The point tables made by me are only a proposition and are examples of how should be the manner to set THE TOTAL OF POINTS (parameters).

Here's the first example:  (original table left / improved one right)
Pls notice that the points were raised to 32 in first Greenskins troops column; table points cant be lower than 32 points because we need some points over 27.

1.- Are players agree using 5 points over 27?  Could be between 3 to 10.
2.- Players must set 32 points into table using their own fundaments, knowing and wishes (if they are all agree using 5 points over 27)
 

Second example:
"re-touches"
Original empire table had 43 points, exactly 18 points over greenskins.
If Greenskins are raised to 32 points then the new empire table MUST BE RAISED 18 POINTS over 32, that means 50.


Third example:
more "re-touches", same fundaments used as before on empire tables but in this case the new table was raised only 6 points over Greens instead 12. I used my own criteria due to playliability.

3.- All players should use their own criteria, same as used on 5000/15 topic before done some "new rules or improvements" but remembering that the unique table has its parameters.


Last example:

4.- Players must decide if they wanna adjust especific points to the items table, just a suggestion made only like a complement to the new 7k21 and 9k27 games (if they realise). Use your own judgement.


IMPLEMENTATION OF ELITE FORCES
im not gonna refer to this while players dont decide or refer about the questions/dudes 1, 2, 3, and 4.

ITEMS POINT TABLE
Its over there !! Its the question number 4, You decide.

If u got some difficults when u see the table points due to bad quality, just go to:

http://mausoleojuegos.iespana.es/ , once inside there u have to click in:
Anexo1: Warhammer Dark Omen ; inside there are the original pictures.

Thx for your time.
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