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Author Topic: Tournament or Playtest field  (Read 8472 times)
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DjLeBomb
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« on: July 15, 2010, 04:10:38 AM »

On the June tournament topic i was really confused by the new rulesets that where "finished" and ready to play even they seemed to be still on the testing fase, wich proved to be like that after the tournament when everyone started to post the modifications to make it.

We are not wasting a tournament on a new untested ruleset, we often use new rulesets in the tournaments, this is not new

i know, i expres myself wrong; i mean the new rulesets, i know that they are tested, but the 5k was also tested, Factions also have lots of tests, the first one of the "brothers" also was tested when was introduced, but then when they where presented to the community, members started to put their opinions, and a lot of changes where made before the rulesets reached a "popular balance". So yes, this is not new, and since then i wonder why we waste the competition of a tournament testing rulesets, instead of making this another specific day while we play the tournys with rulesets already full tested by the community and not only for the 2 or 3 testers that helped the developer. But well, i will start this discussion in a new topic.

This topic reminds me the ignored posts of Kikk on the September tourny of 2009;

whats wrong to play even with untested ruleset?
A tournament I see as an event in which the participants compete with each other with playing skills. With an untested ruleset, there can be room for imbalanced situations where half of the participants know that for example a certain unit is overpowered and the other half does not. Then I find it not a competition for playing skills but a competition for who can discover the most imbalances. Essentially, the tournament then becomes a playtest field. Also, Ghabry wrote:

One reason of the tournaments is to test the ruleset and then to discuss about improvments after the tournament...
so that means that the function of the coming tournament is being a playtest field.

That is perfectly fine, I respect the admin's decision. However, I was looking forward to a tournament as described in the first sentence of this post. And since that is not what we are being offered, I will not join.

And the two sentences of Ghabry and Flak, the one in my quote and the one in the Kikk quote, make my wonder, with the amount of rulesets that we have; it is worth to use the Tournament with still not fully tested and finished rulesets? Why don't we make a tournament with already balanced rulesets (even there is not a perfect one) and at the same time we gather in other date to test the rulesets being developed?

Something like Kikk said, playing every month with a different ruleset, new one for the mayority of the members, and still with several things to improve, may not be a problem for the veterans, and it may prove challenging for them; but as for the new players, it is a mayor headache and hardly they could have a chance against the rest if they at least don't had followed the discussions and modifications made for the selected ruleset.
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alavet
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« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2010, 06:31:02 AM »

thats cause really few members could play NOT at torunaments. tornaments its a big meetign point. for example i very rare play DO at casual days. mainly i play DO only at torunaments. other guys could play more but i dont think more than 10 battles/month anyway. Maybe im wrong.

and if we try new system then it means at least 8-12 people will play it for 3-10 games and give a reasonable feedback.

your point still valid, but i mean, if untested ruleset appears there is no big chance for it to be played at all.
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Wkurwiony
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« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2010, 07:48:19 AM »

the problem with orginised playtests is this

http://forum.dark-omen.org/tournaments/new-balance-may-22-tourney-t744.0.html

other than that hunting for players during month on hamachi isnt cool, many people seems to be online but to get a responce is rather hard ;p
and just to say that after each tournament no matter what ruleset we are making changes even last 5k/15 i think there have been couple of changes, and it doesnt entirely means that ruleset is unbalanced but that it is improved to be even more better

in case of my mod i will make couple of changes but i think that even whitout them it is pretty balanced, its just some units like wraith arent worth their price and because of that less likely to be used in army, and i want every regiment to be useful and have its own place in armybuilt

cheers
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Jeronimo
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« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2010, 11:57:44 PM »

The only Playtest field I can have is VS my little brother.
I go to cyber, we played like 4 hours of Dark Omen and thats it Smiley

So far, my ruleset received an overall of 85% (gathering left players opinions after May Tournament), which is very nice to hear.
Since then I have rewrited my document (simplified to 3 pages) and made a "different structure"... again! Smiley

Each structure I have designed has moved closer to the 100%, you know, from all possible ideas in World, it has been long the road to final version.. if needed, really few tweaks would take place "to achieve 100%", but I think,, that can max stay at 90-95% since resting % depends on gamers experiences (different opinions about last minor tweaks).


Concerning to Kikk, Im not with him. His world would be to vote/play same Ruleset every month.
He never offered to share a single day of his life to test a Ruleset.


Is not so awful to play a new ruleset, he just over-reacted to the fact that my 1st FO version appeared suddenly (and received an OK among members). What Ghabry wrote once is right.

I have seen what a laugh can do. It can transform almost unbearable tears into something bearable, even hopeful. Who plays outside tournament days? We need to gather and share new experiences.

Cheesy
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lordbraprus
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« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2010, 06:10:45 AM »

well, in my opinion is that there are ruleset that are more tested than others, and for reach a "tested ruleset" you have to take the work of find  players to play and test, and then makea softly balance... this june tournament i didnt like it for more reasons that the ruleset was not balanced, but that is another history, the thing s that we played a ruleset that was tested by who? played by who and how many times ; my ruleset DO7 was played with alavet in first place, them with cid halsey, jeronimo and happyman, and i have to say that i recorded more than 30 videos and pics of the games played with that ppl, so then, after each rounds of games i did the balances better change some prices etc etc, THAT IS A TESTED RULESET/MOD...

and it is a tested mod because i did the job of contact alavet happyman, cid halsey and jeronimo (that he is my brother Tongue) to play it, i even tried to play with flak and darkmancer but they were busy but in the end with jeronimo, that is a good balancer, with cid  halsey that knows all about undead, happyman that knows all about greensking and alavet that is a good player and he cares about balancing a game.

and even just with looking at the wkurwiorny link about his mod it is demostrated that the june tournament was played with a no tested enough ruleset, and the cherry of this, is that the ruleset was played with a wrong votes count. any way.. in resume i say that it is posible to play tested and REALLY balanced rulesets/mods as it can desafortunatly be played not tested ruleset.

PD: i congraturat Wku because i have realised one thing. the name of his mod "NEW BALANCE 9k" make that ppl thinks it is a balanced mod, but no, it is just a good looking title.
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alavet
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« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2010, 06:35:17 AM »

to Jeronimo: frankly speaking i never read your .doc file except tables with unit prices/stats
and i believe mot of playrs do the same Cheesy
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Wkurwiony
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« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2010, 02:04:09 PM »

ok dont know if you are joking or are you for real but this post is just a total bs

well, in my opinion is that there are ruleset that are more tested than others, and for reach a "tested ruleset" you have to take the work of find  players to play and test, and then makea softly balance... this june tournament i didnt like it for more reasons that the ruleset was not balanced, but that is another history, the thing s that we played a ruleset that was tested by who? played by who and how many times ; my ruleset DO7 was played with alavet in first place, them with cid halsey, jeronimo and happyman, and i have to say that i recorded more than 30 videos and pics of the games played with that ppl, so then, after each rounds of games i did the balances better change some prices etc etc, THAT IS A TESTED RULESET/MOD...

and it is a tested mod because i did the job of contact alavet happyman, cid halsey and jeronimo (that he is my brother Tongue) to play it, i even tried to play with flak and darkmancer but they were busy but in the end with jeronimo, that is a good balancer, with cid  halsey that knows all about undead, happyman that knows all about greensking and alavet that is a good player and he cares about balancing a game.

How can you say that my ruleset isnt tested ? when ive been playing it for about half a year now with various players :O
More people tested New Balance than DO7... warhammerfreak, jeronimo, kura, abe, contrasnake, darkmancer? oh and a people that took part in january tournament.. sorry if i forgot about anyone

Moreover you might not know but i took point system (5k/15 - yeah i know Ramiro its totally unbalanced) as a base, and tried to make every regiment being an average of 2 points thus changes like mortart costing x2 its price, HoU x4 of its price etc.

Oh and wow 30 vids recorded Ramiro really? well i didnt recorded any of mine ;/ well maybe with Kura some time ago but i'll ask, you know what version 2.4 means ? well it means that it have been changed 24 times, and between each change there was couple of battles, lets say 4 its low number so i wont be accused of some unreal number. Do a math

Quote
and even just with looking at the wkurwiorny link about his mod it is demostrated that the june tournament was played with a no tested enough ruleset, and the cherry of this, is that the ruleset was played with a wrong votes count. any way.. in resume i say that it is posible to play tested and REALLY balanced rulesets/mods as it can desafortunatly be played not tested ruleset.

PD: i congraturat Wku because i have realised one thing. the name of his mod "NEW BALANCE 9k" make that ppl thinks it is a balanced mod, but no, it is just a good looking title.

When it comes to the voting, in the end i think we can say it was right ? As Cid didnt played any game so whitout his vote it would be 4 to 3.. or am i wrong ? And the name of the mod is more related to athletic footwear company than to some evil PR mind tricks that you are claiming.

Back to the mod

You act like there was some major unbalanced things in New Balance so tell me which one ? you got all furious that Horn cost 750gc just to realise you didnt copied engrel.exe to the right folder.. than you started to look for something else you could start crying over :| well tell me what was so overpowerd it made games one sided ? From what i know each race could defeat another, there wasnt spam armies or any "I win" regiments so tell me what was it ? maybe it was HoU ? no that cant be it

Ill go a little offtopic and ill ask about your DO7 ? Does UD always wins vs Greenskins just as when i played with you ? Im really curious but i cant check it out myself as you still didnt posted a link to your mod on this forum ;/ Oh you could post those vids when we playd, when i had UD i would really like to check it out

You seem to have some kind of quarrel with me that im not entirely sure of. Dont know, maybe its because i got a little bit diffrent view on balancing things, as i think that making changes after each game is pointless as you might not know in DO there is a lot of dice game. So if your regiment A clearly beats regiment B you are making changes instantly, and i wait couple of games to see does it really do so well and only then i would make any change to that unit..

Another thing is that i dont change unit stats so anyone who plays the game knows how each regiment will act in this mod, based on their expirience from campaign and default multiplayer, you know keeping it like it was meant to be

Btw Ramiro will you try to win voting this month ? or are you gonna wait on a month that ill be voting for mine ? Tongue
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lordbraprus
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« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2010, 02:09:22 PM »

iam tired now to read all our reply, but i readed the last part :p , all i can say , i want to make love with you all night long till the dawn.. hug you , kiss you, whispering each second of my time at your side all the love i feel, and how good you are for me, you make my hearth healthly, you make that it is worth to live this life  wku.. i just.. love you
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Wkurwiony
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« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2010, 02:12:29 PM »

when no logic arguments occur Tongue but yeah love you too Ramiro Smiley and good luck in this month voting
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lordbraprus
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« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2010, 02:14:00 PM »

i even dont know if i will play... but next month, why dont you vote my mod ? honey? :$ please? :S
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lordbraprus
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« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2010, 02:16:31 PM »

WOW WOW WOW WKUU "kura, abe, contrasnake" pffffffffffff sorry?Huh? tell me where are these "users" "players", man they dont exist, and what do they know about modding? and balancing? :S please, give me a call +54 02245-15-433152 and we talk

and i mean,, what does kura, abe, contrasnake knows about w32edit, do they knew the stats?? and if the tabletop game exists? :S the amount is not the importance, the quality yes Wink (of testers)
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Wkurwiony
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« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2010, 02:32:55 PM »

WOW WOW WOW WKUU "kura, abe, contrasnake" pffffffffffff sorry?Huh? tell me where are these "users" "players", man they dont exist, and what do they know about modding? and balancing? :S please, give me a call +54 02245-15-433152 and we talk

and i mean,, what does kura, abe, contrasnake knows about w32edit, do they knew the stats?? and if the tabletop game exists? :S the amount is not the importance, the quality yes Wink (of testers)

well you might belive they dont exist but they were very real when i played with them, and why would they need to know anything about WH32 ? they tried to make most overpowered armies and we played, well at least i test it like that checking for overpowered variants and fixing them

oh and ive never talked, saw, played happyman.. so does this means he doesnt exist ? Smiley
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DjLeBomb
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« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2010, 04:58:55 AM »

Ok guys, thanks for your enthusiasm, but after the 4 reply this topic went through the toilet. So it is fine for me, lets continue with the tests and tournys as usual.

Of course you can continue with the sequel of the "The war of the roses", but maybe it could be more apropiate by pm's.

Again tx for the replys and continue with the great works on the rulesets, both of them.
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Wkurwiony
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« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2010, 08:39:52 AM »

well i just felt the need to correct his ignorant opinion

and back to the playtests, everything really have been said about it, as its hard to gather people outside of the "official" tournament to make some big test in mini-tournament, so its rather up to playing single players and checking things with them as most of us do. So dont think that something that is proposed in the votings and isn't a default game with some restrictions is automaticly bad
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olly
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« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2010, 11:58:41 AM »

Every Sunday and Thursdays we should all meet to play test Rulesets or simply play, no worries if can't make it or confirmation but if your are free then Please Join in.

Smiley

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