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Fair Omen 2010

[olly]

New additional Website Wraith Troop description taken from 1994 Undead Rulebook

http://en.dark-omen.org/troops/undeads/wraiths.html

[Jeronimo]

http://rapidshare.com/files/410167181/Fair_Omen.zip

(with Mappatch version .3)



Please, read the document

[Darkmancer]

When I said include map patch 3, I meant unpacked so everyone would defo have the same version you dingbat.

[Flak]

i read it but it seems in my memory kinda similar to the one i read last time?

what is it you would like us to pay attention to?

[Flak]

if all units now have LD 8, surely you have lowered the cost for elves and dwarves who now holds a much smaller advantage

[Jeronimo]

Well, in fact, in general regs have +1L including Including Dwarves (with L10 now). Except elves and mummies.

[Flak]

I like most of the things in FO
I didnt really feel the +1 LD but then it shouldnt be too significant anyway so
I think you need to consider that Spider, Scorpions and Trolls are now in groups of 3 and 6 while ogres are still just 3 and now fall somewhat behind as a primary regiment, i would suggest 4 ogres in a regiment for them to keep an edge

[Darkmancer]

It's nice restricting creature features to greenskins thou, ogres seem to be coming a standard regiment when they shouldnt really.

Units that are under expensive.  Before I said none but thinking about it all medium melee (orcs, biguns, ghouls, skeles, swordsmen, merc, halberdiers) could use a slight increase to promote a bits more unit type diversity.

[Jeronimo]

I like most of the things in FO
I didnt really feel the +1 LD but then it shouldnt be too significant anyway so
I think you need to consider that Spider, Scorpions and Trolls are now in groups of 3 and 6 while ogres are still just 3 and now fall somewhat behind as a primary regiment, i would suggest 4 ogres in a regiment for them to keep an edge

It happens that Ogres = Spiders (after comparing them, all things). They are at 660gc, previusly were at 720gc.
A resolution can be returning to old values. Troll from 840 to 900 again, etc...

BUT, the reason of making them -60 is because they dont stand chances vs hordes of soldiers, like the 26/26 or 32/32 regiments, so many units to kill, without mentioning those with several wounds.

I have recorded the battles, where is shown how 6/6 Scorpions run after recevinig a LCheck, or Trolls dying by magical swords (celestial),, so arent invencible.
Olly who had 3 Ogres, 1 Treeman regs, lost that HU vs HU battle because they couldnt face too many units.

The Role of these "3/3 6/6 (including wraiths)", is to chase, try to rout from behind-flank, pass throw narrow places, persue wizards & siege machines, but.... facing an army face to face... never >>> They will fail.

You can use cavalry instead of monsters, so its an equivalent, where you plan if you want more units, better speed, stronger armor or cause Lchecks with ease. I think all regs complement each other...

Example: 16/16 Orc Boar Boyz and 3/3 Spiders cost 660 (same).
Having to choose 4 fast regimetns, what do you pick: 4 Boars, 4 Spiders, or mix 2 Boars-2 Spiders.
Its hard to say, but since you can have with Empire, 4 Elf Runners, also you may buy 4 Merc. Ogres, similar to the example with Boarz-Spiders (also 660 these regiments).
The problem perhaps is that feels unnatural... we prefer to see 4 Elf Runners instead of 4 of Ogres because Elves have 20/20 units and looks like an Elf Army, however having many Ogres, looks strange.

I assure you that, beyond what looks visually accepted, the balance issue is allright, there is symmetry in the example above. People wont tend to mass, as I coloured, the natural choice of average players is to pick 2-2 in order to cover all necessities that may ocurr in battlefield.

It's nice restricting creature features to greenskins thou, ogres seem to be coming a standard regiment when they shouldnt really.

Units that are under expensive.  Before I said none but thinking about it all medium melee (orcs, biguns, ghouls, skeles, swordsmen, merc, halberdiers) could use a slight increase to promote a bits more unit type diversity.

The "Standardizing" of Ogres is what happens when things are Symmetric.
You can choose either Ogres or Elf Runners (their gold cost equivalent in Humans).

If I increase Ogres heads, the same I would have to similar with Spiders (their obv equivalent GS), but the power of them is to make the sneaky micro moves on battlefield, while big forces collide. With their current number they cant wipe out an army, but cant cost much more... 3/3 Monster Squad = 16/16 Cavalry >>> You choose.



Regiments underpriced: Do you mean Infantry too cheap? Its the base of a Standard Army.
1 Infantry will occupy a slot. In my armies I did combine weak-medium infantries. But you know you will have some extra gold at the end, which can be used for: buying Items, replacing Infantries for Other kind of Troops.

I ll tell you that I lost with Infantry Spam vs Olly who had less Regiments but Elite type: I had experienced Ghouls, Zombies, Skeletons, vs 2 Wights, 2 Mummies. I had Experienced Number, he Experienced Quality and won for that.

That battle made me thing that we always need to combine several elements, lack of magic - ranged attack - fear flank attack (monsters), becomes your doom. The Spam Infantry works better if you + Horn of Urgok (only with 9k possible).

In few words, you will need type diversity if you want to win. Look at the Catapults, strong Wizard, good Ranged, Mini terror Squads, etc. That cheap Infantry is just Infantry. MANY MANY times, they die stomped because of a Lcheck fail... "There you have your gold, massacred in the floor".



Tell me if I you both can understand my points of view. I hope my arguments were enough clear.

[Jeronimo]

After re-reading FO numbers and its performances, so far I decided:

1) Banner of Wrath from 650 to 600.
2) Mummies from 1080-1260-1440 to 1080-1200-1380.

Explanation 1: Alavet did combine Staff of Osiris + Banner of Wrath... and did kinda fail.
Anyway we see BoW is like a "Celestial Sword at distance", you need luck to kill 2-3 units, it works better if rays are concentrated to 1 regiment, which will happen only at 3k armies or final moments of battle.
If Celestial Sword is at 200gc... Banner of Wrath will be at 600gc, its triple cost.

Explanation 2: Mummies already expensive. Evolutions passed from +180+180 to +120+180, like the Wights, now both really good + Defiance. You decice who will have the extra levels.

[alavet]

you need to rework Wraights compeltely. Darkmancer suggested decrease them in cost futher, and possibly add up in heads, i suggest to make them 6-9 heads, +2WS +1S, remove "die when routing" flag and keep the cost (or increase a little)

also, yes, osiris gettign less usefull at 7k+ armies, making me not wish to use it, same goes to amost swords. i udnerstand you can't adjust price for items reagrding of gold limit, but still it's an option to issue diffirient englre.exe for diffirient gold limit maybe.

[Jeronimo]

Starting this reply, I wont make several Engrels due to is like a Standard Dark Omen, just you know that some Items become less effective with different Gold sizes, such as Defiance no useful at 3k Army while Wrath yes.

New decisions:

3) Ice Mage from 600-900-1200 to 600-900-1080.
4) Wraiths from 900 to 840.

Explanation 3: I already knew this but forgot to make something respect it. The Ice mage starts with 4 Spells in L1, then 5 Spells in L2, but in L3 replaces 1 spell for another stronger... which means again having 5 Spells.
Book of Ashur gives him a 6th Spell so is OK, but the +300gc everyone has in each advanced level means having 1 extra Spell... now for Ice Mage the replacement of a weaker spell will mean +180 instead of +300.

Explanation 4: Damn damn damn! Wraiths have L6 and Mov 5 + "unim by diff terrain". Also 2 double hand-weapon attacks, causing terror, projectil immunity... A perfect unit which easily breaks, what a problem!

At 840gc they cost the same as 3/3 Trolls (also with L6)... Its a matter of comparison with the "Elite regiments from other Races". Wraiths with their Mov 5 and etc, should be for flanking attacks or siege machine/ranged persecution, well seen in my battles, making them fight front to front is... suicide (rout in a time), also is recommended to attack "small strong" regiments, such as the Monsters to win them in Lcheck due to 2 attacks+Terror (6 units).

Its the way we use it, taking their true power into account they are still 1 great regiment (not good for massing).
My brother once had 3 Wraiths and beleive me... he won because blocked my fast regiments, and then used Wraiths together to attack my regiments 1 by 1.
Just imagine 12 or 18 wraiths attacking 1 same regiment without "fear imm"

They allow the Skeletons + Wraith combos.
+ Archers: you shoot your Wraiths in melee, so enemy takes Checks from Wraith terror, and enemy Arrows.
+ Infantry: Burble tactic: Send Wraiths first (with MOV 5 they will in most cases charge first), then send 32/32 Skeleton Infantry behind Wraiths and charge. Result: 6 Wraiths fighting and  Rear-Flank  protected by many Skeletons. It will be impossible to break Wraiths from enemy charges.

They allow the Wraith Defence tactic: I have used sometimes the 6/6 Wraiths like a Wall for Mage-Catapult (1 single unit), here they can absorbe attacks from Pistoliers, Crossbowen, Cannons, Ballistas in advanced positions, mainly when battlefield is open (few obstacles).


Come on guys, after reading this stuff, do you still want Wraiths to be just like "another strong melee fighter"?

The number 6/6 is thinking that Swords kill them just 1 by 1 (Commander inflicts the damage) so its in fact very difficult to see your Comm in a good position striking Wraiths with his Sword.
Using a Mage to kill 6 units that move fast (Mov 5), is another pain in the ass.
The best way of course, we all know it, making them run... but Burble tactic perhaps will stop you.

NOTE: Wraiths odds of running dramatically increase if they "are charged", you know they will lose a combat round almost immediatly. The Mov 5 upgrade helps them to be the "chargers"...

[Darkmancer]

Me and alavet are talking about wights not wraiths.........

Thinking about it I don't think anybodybody used skele archers.  Maybe increase no units to 28 or 32? (or decrease cost)

PS could you reduce dwarves from 32 -> 28.  They still a large regiment but will be easier to move and they won't take as long to kill off if they get BOD.

[Jeronimo]

About Alavet's post: Didnt you read that he suggested increase heads from 6 to 9, its obviously Wraiths.
Alavet also misunderstood your post, thinking you aimed Wraiths as well...

I know you still compare Wights with Skeletons Warriors... Wights arent part of the CORE, they are especial.
Dont know if you read the document, (sure not), but the Wights have L10 instead of L8, and believe me that being 16/16 with 3 wounds each one + Wight Blade, makes them a strong candidate for Defiance (like TOP Ghouls or Mummies).

At same 720gc can be compared with the 16/16 Skeleton Horsemen: Wights or Skeleton Horsemen?
In the uploaded videos of July Tournament, you can appreciate Olly's Wights playing havoc with my UD Army.

Skeletons Archers are fine, I didnt buy them, and was a really bad decision. I needed them.

Dwarves are OK: 960 + 700 = 1660 > Lots of gold, I know my bro was the one who make you write that suggestion now, and the main reason of their long life was due to Shield of Ptolos.
Easier to move? Let them take some casualties while they move towards Goblin archers.

[Darkmancer]

Re-read alavet's post, he's refering to a game, I had against him earlier as I wanted to see how good wights were with leader 10.  I sent a pure army of wights against his orcs, the wights fell apart.

Afterwards we discussed what could be done to improve wights he suggested reducing the number of soldiers, and improving they're stats basically making them unbreakable mummies (with worse stats).

I suggested a few more units (2 or 4) to make use of fear (auto break when you out number) and a cost decrease.

You mention the game against olly now think would the results have been different if he'd had 2 x 32 skeletons instead?  I suspect not.

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Skele Archers you forget how rubbish they are , slow reload and can't hit shit, I guarentie they will let you down
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Dwarves - - 4 units wouldn't have changed what happened in that game, shield of ptolos doesnt explain they're magical and melee immunity does it .  4 units doesnt make a difference in combat as its when they route when they take 90% of casulties it's only when they're banner'd up it'll change anything.