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5000/15

[alavet]

Flaks 5000/15 suggestion

ok my notes
i generally dont like idea of increasment points in regiments untill they reach q-ty:2
yeah i think 3rd regiment should cost more possibly |(but depending of the crowd, for example zombies useless anyway)

about mages - i think we just need a rule to set mages to go in close combat if there is only mages left at any side (no matter how many mages u have). i dont think that teleporting of mages have any tactial interest and "right for live" cause dark omen is wargame and not RPG.

Unit                       cost for 1st to 3rd unit

Crossbowmen                   2/3/3 - maybe ok
Imperial Cannon                3/4/5 - i suggest 3/3/3 - i dont see any real power in 3 canons or w/e
Bright Wizard                    2/3/4 - i hate it.
Halbardiers                       1/2/2 - maybe ok
Bowmen                          2/3/3 - maybe ok
Flagellants                       3/3/4 - like it
Mortar                            3/4/5 - i suggest 3/4/4
Ogres                             2/2/3 - like it
Swordsmen                      2/2/3 - like it
Greatswords                    1/2/2 - maybe ok
Ice Mage                         2/3/4 - i hate it.
Cavalry                           3/3/4 - like it
Pistoleers                        4/5/6 - 4/5/5 imo. you wouldnt be ably to contraol 3 units and if yo ureally able to then you desreve to win

Knights of the Realm          3/3/4 - like it
Dwarf Warriors                 2/2/3- like it
Glade Guards                   2/3/3 - i dunno
Wood Elf Archers              4/5/6 - 4/5/5 reasons the same as pistoleter
Treeman                         4/4/5 - like it


Goblin Archers                  1/2/2 - they really suck so i think 1/1/2 would be enough
Goblins                            1/1/1 - ok
Spider                             2/2/3 - 2/2/2 - spiders so fragile unit that u dont need to icnrease cost
Scorpion                         1/2/3 - 1-2-2 seems ok
Goblin Shaman                  1/2/3 - hate it for reasons above
Orc Arrers                       2/2/3 - ok
Orc Boars                        2/2/3 - ok
Orc Boyz                         1/1/2 - ok
Orc Big'uns                      2/2/3 - ok
Orc Bolt Thrower               3/3/4 -ok
Orc Rock Lobber               4/5/6 - 4/5/5/
Troll                                1/2/3 - 1/2/2/
Goblin Archer w.Fanatic     2/3/3 - 2/2/2/ imo. they're pretty much useless
Goblin w.Fanatic               2/2/3 - 2/2/2/ imo. they're pretty much useless


Vampire                           3/4/5 -hate
Ghouls                             1/1/2 -ok
Mummies                          5/6 - ok vbut 6/6 also not bad actually
Necromancer                    2/3/4 - hate
Scull Catapult                   3/4/5 -3/4/4/ ok
Skeleton Archers               2/2/3 -ok
Skeleton Horsemen            3/3/4 - ok
Skeleton Warriors              2/2/3 - ok
Black Grail                        10 -ok
Wights                            3/3/4 -ok
Wraiths                           7/8 - ok
Zombies                          ½/1/1 (2 zombies first must be purchased together and cost ½ each) - ok but i prefer ½/½/1


Items

Horn of Urgok                    10 pts (its better than grail knights in my opinion so it needs to be high to still present a challenge) - 9 imo. but 10 also ok
Banner of Wrath                3 pts - ok
others                              1pts - ok

[olly]

Great Lists!

I agree with nearly everything and would only suggest:

If Mage Last Unit must engage Hand to Hand.

Horn to be 8 points to teach us how Anti Magic Negates the Effects

Banner of Wrath to be 4points

Orc Shamen not Listed and all Mages to 3 instead of 2 and Goblin Shamen to 2 not 1

Cannon 3/3/3

Orgres 3/3/4 Given the Banner of Defiance these are the Empire's strongest hand to Hand Units.

Pistoliers I agree 4/5/6

Wood Elf archers 4/5/6  same again

Spider 2/2/3  as causes Fear and 3 of them running at you..

Zombies.. hehe yeah anything to make them appealing.



Good Work!





and can we list maps, im thinking Road to Bogenhafen, Empire, Black Pyramids

The Road to Moussilon  but need 2 more good ones.


http://forum.dark-omen.org/maps/all-maps-t155.0.html

Ghabry Suggested Border Bounties, that seemed a Favourite from Last Tournament.

Perhaps Return to Axebite Pass could be the 6th?

These are the first 6 most Equal and Fair Maps, as the rest are Defend /Attack Bias,

Ideal for Future DOST/Scenario based Tournaments.

[alavet]

ok i actually like this new ruleset http://wiki.dark-omen.org/index.php?title=DO/Rules/5000/15/Point_list&oldid=2174 but have few thoughts:
Screaming Skull Catapult  Level 1  3  3  4   why u increase it in cost that much? mayeb 3 will be ok as well? it misses so often...
Wights  Level 1  2  3  4  - maybe its a good thin - illl try to use them more this time, but 2 seems too cheap for me... maybe ok tho

Zombies  Level 1  1  0  1  really like how u solved it.
from other hand i think we need to allow get even more zombies (not 3 max). its funny, after all?

[Flak]

i think the 5k rules are now well balanced, i agree almost all of it

i think we've nailed it

especially happy with the buy 2 get 1 for free zombies lol

[bembelimen]

Screaming Skull Catapult  Level 1  3  3  4   why u increase it in cost that much? mayeb 3 will be ok as well? it misses so often...

How do you mean this? At the moment it is 3. If you buy two of them, you have to "pay" 6 points. The suggestions were "3/4/5" or "3/4/4" now it's "3/3/4" to make it more playable. Or did i missunderstand you?

Wights  Level 1  2  3  4  - maybe its a good thin - illl try to use them more this time, but 2 seems too cheap for me...

I don't think, that they're much stronger than Skeleton Warriors (cause they will die, if they have to flee), so only the 2nd and 3rd is more expensive.

[alavet]

Screaming Skull Catapult  Level 1  3  3  4   why u increase it in cost that much? mayeb 3 will be ok as well? it misses so often...

How do you mean this? At the moment it is 3. If you buy two of them, you have to "pay" 6 points. The suggestions were "3/4/5" or "3/4/4" now it's "3/3/4" to make it more playable. Or did i missunderstand you?

you got me right. but after your new ruleset i actually re-evualted and really think that mass artilerry doesnt work well. and for other artiellry you actually decreased cost for 3rd unit, but just for screaming catapults yo uactualluy icnreased it. so well we may remain rules the same (cause frankly speaking i dont ever think that some1 wish to use 3 catapults ever) but if i get your logic we need to make it 3/3/3 or 3/3/2.

I don't think, that they're much stronger than Skeleton Warriors (cause they will die, if they have to flee), so only the 2nd and 3rd is more expensive

thats nice point; maybe im just on impression of their power at singleplayer - one of the toughtest unit for me, except mummies and grail. even dead cavalry was weaker, lol.

[Flak]

talking of the actual stats then most undead are as weak as goblins but their fight to the death ability combined with causing fear is what makes them strong

[Mikademus]

Wouldn't Flak's suggestion be compatible with Alabet's objections above? Since unit prices climbs with additional units, you could have armies of only the same unit but it would be increasingly expensive (thus obey the law of decreasing returns).

[Flak]

ive been reviewing unit stats for empire units and Grungebringer Infantry needs to be set to 1/2/2 as they are the same as halbardiers and greatswords, the only differnce between these 3 is the weaponry, swordmen have basic hand weapon.

[alavet]

ok i suggest to put your thoughts about whole balance there
the latest rules link i have is http://wiki.dark-omen.org/do/DO/Rules/5000/15

my suggestions:

- for empire/orcs artilerry
decrease in cost of artillery for third unit. it should go 4/4/3 if you are against it please play against me with 3 mortairs/lobbers (which will cost you 13points and 1 point for regiment) 

- for necro artillery:
Screaming Skull Catapult  Level 1  3  4  4 
i think it should be changed to 3/3/3 cause they're REALLY SLOW in shooting and really NON ACURATE at shooting.

- for elven archers:
you might say that cause of my logic we should decrease elves to 4/4/3 but 4/5/6 really better cause elves may:
1)move
2)fight not so bad in close battles
3)come back after retreat

- for troll
i see that it chanegd for 2pts in about december but i dont see any reason why. i think even zombies may kill him?

[Flak]

I am pretty satisfied with the rules, i think that trolls should stay at 2 pts because unlike scorpions and spiders they regenerate and have magic resistance, if any spiders should be 1

Swordsmen/Greatswords/Halbardiers are of 100% equal strength so they are 1 as they should be

I also finally feel that undead have been balanced to match the orc hordes and the strong empire units

as for artillery and mages i think the cost is right

[bembelimen]

First to say: I'm currently busy with university stuff, so the changes could be slow down. Sorry for that.

Btt:

- for troll
i see that it chanegd for 2pts in about december but i dont see any reason why. i think even zombies may kill him?

Cause they cause fear, are magic-resistant and regenerate. (One other reason was: some player used a troll only army....)

// merged topics (if that was wrong, contact me)

[DjLeBomb]

Guys, first of all, congrats for the good work  , and tx for make it ready for the last tourny.

Now, since almost two months ago i'm testing DO a lot with a friend of mine, for a reason well know to Bemb obviously but to be announce to everyone on the next weeks. In this experience i realize of something that my lazyness made me avoid before; even if one have years of playing and a very well perfomance in general, at the time of make a sure proposition, it must be have been hard tested before, 'cause no matter what we read or assume, the facts on the battlefield are usually diferents that we have thougt. Few Examples:

- Ogres: as we all known, they don't cause fear  . But with the Olly discovering of the combo Ogres+Banner of Defiance  , they are enough fearsome haha  .

- Flagellants: i think this is the most underestimeted unit for the players and in the rules  ; well managed and without using them like another infantry troop, they are devastating, and confront 3 units of this troop supported by another units, it's a nightmare.

- Spiders & Scorpions: On the papers, the Spider is more expensive, in theory for have almost the same power of the Scorpion plus the 360 vision; on the battle they almost don't cause the fear that we buy and in the melee they totally suck  . On the other hand we have the Scorpy  , more cheaper than they comrade; on the battlefield, they almost always cause fear on the unit affected by this effect, in theory due to his Terror skill, but let's just said like Ghabry or Mika in the Hedit: "they do a lot of fear" (i will put my Terror opinion and tests soon in another "Just Testing" post  ). and if they charge from one side or the rear, wich is something more easy to do with a single unit, they are even more chances of success  . And in the melee they area good opponent having see one Scorp deal with 5 flagellants once  .

-Dwarfs: On the market they sold us that they are though, almost unbreakables, and fight well. Well it's hard to me said this since i love the Dwarfs of the WF World  , but on this battlefield, they suck, they stink, they are almost as useless as the Mercenary Infantry, who by the way is much more ineffective than the Alberdiers or the Greatswords. I don't have memory of one battle in wich they have a decent performance  .
 
After this prologue i will put my humble collaboration to the discussion  , but please don't thing wrong, i'ts not that i have tha final truth  , just putting it in an Alavet  tone: "please, if u don't think it's ok, then play at least 3 times with the objective of test the matter, and then u will have an argument":

GOOD ONES

- Flagellants: 3/3/4
- Dwarfs: 1/2/2
- Glade Guard: 3/3/4


GREEN ONES

- Spider: 1/1/2
- Scorpion: 2/2/3
- Boar Riders: 2/3/3
- Big'uns: 2/2/3
- Orc Shaman: 2/2/3


DEAD ONES

- Skeleton Archers: 1/2/4
- Skeleton Warriors: 1/2/3
- Skeleton Horsemen: 2/4/4
- Black Grial: still testing and experimenting


Horn of Urgok: 6
Banner of Defiance: 2

Ok, thats all folks, wait your opinions about this, and again great work, bye  .

[alavet]

ok tx for the input; my thoughts


GOOD ONES

- Flagellants: 3/3/4 - oki
- Dwarfs: 1/2/2 -oki
- Glade Guard: 3/3/4 - why? i never seen them any real good, and look for the stats:
- swordmen (1pts)
- glade
i think 2/2(3)/3(4) is oki

GREEN ONES

- Spider: 1/1/2 -oki
- Scorpion: 2/2/3 - oki
- Boar Riders: 2/3/3 - i actually dont think they any real better than biguns (see graphs) from otehr way they're litlle faster, so...dunno maybe ok maybe not
- Big'uns: 2/2/3 - oki just cause its orcs. maybe 2/3/3 is better? i mean these guys really strong one and they actually deserve /3/ for second regiment but other orcs regiment so weak so we make it /2/ as a compenastion?
- Orc Shaman: 2/2/3 - i dont agree. 2/2/2 as minimum or even 2/2/1. how will you use your shamans? i dont get it please eleborate. i actually want it to be 2/1/1/


DEAD ONES

- Skeleton Archers: 1/2/4 - cant comment i never used them (lol)
- Skeleton Warriors: 1/2/3 - i like it actually. maybe its better to make it 2/1/3? i mean they're stronger than ghouls cause they fearless, and most players buys ghouls just as a meat when you have "free" 1-2 points, and since skeletons better than ghouls (but not very much) we may prevent it by 2/1/3
- Skeleton Horsemen: 2/4/4 - dunno, these horsemen really weak in the battle but from other way they cause fear pretty much and fast cavalry... 2/4/4 i actually like it, cause i rarely use ud cavalry for 3 points - too expensive
- Black Grial: still testing and experimenting - maybe 9? or even 8? just dont sure that grail now able to kill 5 regiments alone (if they attack grail coordinated). but if grail has some artifact its getting way stronger... tough question.

[Flak]

interesting work DJ, as a general idea i sence that you wanna lower the points cost in the ruleset, some of your ideas i can agree with and some i find unbalanced but good work in any case mate 

Empire

- Flagellants: 3/3/4 they are 3/3/3 atm and not used much, i dont think the cost of the 3rd would change any but if some1 decides to make a Flagellant based army i think the 3/3/3 is fair.

- Dwarfs: 1/2/2 I can agree with this, they are much weaker in multiplayer than in singleplayer, they have a high leadership but fall easily victim to archers so i guess 1/2/2 is fair

- Glade Guard: 3/3/4 i must say that even tho they are faster than Flagellants and have high leadership then they will flee and i think 2/3/3 is fair enough.


Greenskins

- Spider: 1/1/2 - Scorpion: 2/2/3 should have the same theoretical chance to cause fear so i think that 1/2/2 for both is the best solution. Spiders have 360 vision but that is not enough to make them more than scorpions, they already cost a bit more so let that be it.

- Boar Riders: 2/3/3 They are slightly weaker than biguns but they are cavalry, and therefore must be considered more dangerous, 2/2/3 i think is ok but i wouldnt mind 2/3/3 either

- Big'uns: 2/2/3 are the best orc infantry and they are a match for elven infantry and wights so i think the 2/3/3 is ok

- Orc Shaman: 2/2/3 i spose 3 for the last is ok but is unlikely to come into effect


Undead

- Skeleton Archers: 1/2/4 - Skeleton Warriors: 1/2/3 eventho these troops have weak stats they will never break and that prolongs and fight they are in and that increases their chance to make the enemy route so 1 is too little, i think the 2/2/3 fair 2/3/3 would be too much 1/2/3 would be too little

- Skeleton Horsemen: 2/4/4 while they are the weakest cavalry in the game, they have the fear factor 3/3/4 seems ok to me, they are Shock troops that has to circle the enemy for an opening to take out some archers not head on troops but they are fast so they must be 3/3/4.

- Black Grail: in 3000/10 i would say they should be 7 or 8 but in 5000/15 10 is ok, ive used them myself alot and they are dangerous even with only ghouls as back up.


Horn of Urgok: 6 no no no 8 at the very least, personally i think it should be 10, nothing ruins a game as when its decided by who can blow the horn first to make the other flee first

Banner of Defiance: 2 you can only get 1 banner and while effective the unit that carries it is often targeted by alot by enemy troops because they are identified as the worst threat so 1 i think is fair enough.