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lordbraprus
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« on: August 02, 2009, 06:08:16 AM »

Hello Community. My name is Jeronimo.
I thought in a way to see Fair Omen in action. I leave with you a short file (1.5 pages) where is explained my new Tournament modality. Who knows? Perhaps we could play my system some day. I wait for opinions. Thanks.

* FO Tournament.doc (35 KB - downloaded 231 times.)
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alavet
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« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2009, 09:04:05 AM »

Hi, i briefly readed your system (even thogh didnt udnerstood much of some concepts) but i think it will be hard to implement (maybe untill shields will be in use, and possibly chaning balances even more)

Quote
Players must create 3 armies (1 of each race). In a TD wins the best of 5 matches, called Rounds.
Let’s see this example: Player A vs. Player B
1st Round: Alliance vs. Alliance – Player A wins.
After the battle, Player A must attend his army (sell/buy regiments or items)
Then saves his new army and prepares for next round.
2nd Round: Alliance vs. Greenskins – Player A wins.
After the battle, Player A must attend his army (sell/buy regiments or items)
Then saves his new army and prepares for next round.
3rd Round: Alliance vs. Undead – Player B wins.


the problem with this concept that the player A will be actually forced to the defending armies, otherwise it will be imposible for him to survive even 2 rounds. Its cleary shown at our Conquest project (see http://forum.dark-omen.org/overview-b38.0/, after which, we got following things:
1) its hard to surive more than 3 rounds in a while (depending of the opponent it might be easier but not against same skill opponents)
2) defending armies with more archers (we haven't tested mortairs still, but we tested lobberss) takes a huge advantage in "surviving", cause they usuly has less loses.

it cause that UD will have a big disadvantage in play, since they dont have good shooting units. Greenskins also suffers from that, but less.

Overall: i advice you to play with us in our next COnquest (it will start in 1-3 weeks or so) so you will test Flak's system for surviving armies. Its still not FO concept, but its interesting from other way cause its inclludes lots of new/unique units and i sure u will enjoy it & take adjustments to your system as well.

As for FO rulest i definitely think that we should play our next tourney based on that. I think we need Flak come back and lobby it though him Smiley
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bembelimen
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« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2009, 10:37:52 AM »

Hello

First to say: I don't like the actual system either. I created a new system long time ago click. But most months we have to regroup the fixture, cause some player didn't appear and so on. That's why we use the table system atm.

So back to the FO suggestion. I read it and I hope I understand it correctly. (Let me make a quick conclusion with an example)

Let's say we have 12 player, so we split them into 6x2 groups. In the first stage every group plays 5 times. And the winner of 3 battles reach the next stage. Ok, so we'll have in the 1st stage 6 groups, in the 2nd 3 groups and in the last a 3 player final. I hope this was correct. so but now I see in this system some problems:

1. What happens with the player who will lose the first stage? if it goes bad, he will play 3 times against the same opponent and is out.

2. The time: if we have 12 player, the player who win the tournament will have 5+5+10 = 20 battles, let's say every battle takes 15 minutes (I think this is calculated very short) and we have 10minutes break between each round (update the fixture etc.) We need 20*15+3*10 = 5,5h only for playing. But the past showed, that we have most time a delay or the battles needs more time etc. so It will be very hard to finish this tournament in less than 6-7h. This could be very hard for e.g. alavet who lives in an other time zone with ++ hour. (And also for me who lives in gmt +1)

So as result, I don't see the advantage of this system. If you're unlucky, you can play 3 games against one opponent and then you're out or if you're lucky, you reach the final and have to play 6-7h. But perhaps I misunderstood something, so feel free to correct me.
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Flak
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« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2009, 09:26:50 PM »

Hello lordbraprus

Ive read the system and its not a bad system by any means, it interesting with the duel type fixture.
Unfortunately like bembelimen i agree that it would be much too time consuming to be used for a regular tournament.
So far we have found it hard to organize more than 7-12 battles for each player, to even keep count of 2 4-5 player groups can be difficult enough as games are played constantly and many battles never get any result posted unless the players are asked.

I would love to make a more advanced fixture system with equal chances but it is impossible, as we always have 2-4 cancellations every time. A tournament fixture system needs a high level of flexibility, that is more important than anything else or the start is delayed and players get confused who they are spose to play against.

I try to make the tournament as fair as possible and i always add playoff finals for the lower placed players.

The survival mode you suggest is currently being tested in Conquest, based on our experienced from that i doubt it will be possible to use in a tournament as you need a constant supply of new armies or all armies end up being too weak to fight properly, while 1 or 2 armies will grow huge and impossible to beat with just one army.
In conquest i had an army with 10 wins, my elven bowmen had 4500 and 5000 xp thats lvl 4, 1 lvl 2 glade, 1 lvl 3 glade, 2 lvl 2 treemen, 1 lvl 2 dwarf and some lvl 1 units. All in all no other 7000gc made even a dent in this line up. Only 2 clever battles with a little luck with the map draw from Alavet was able to defeat the army and even so it had saved over 11k gold and could be replaced instantly.
In a tournament with survival mode such an army facing single battles only would be untouchable.

I would think that this system does have potential but not for one day tournament, more likely a week length tournament with one duel a day.
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lordbraprus
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« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2009, 09:04:58 AM »

Hello. Im Jeronimo. Long time has passed. I took into account your considerations. It's true I didnt think about players that dont show up the Tournament Day, so here is my resolution... it combines old and new stuff.

I think you should modify the rule when a "Wizards stays alone". I wrote my opinion in the file.
About time of a Tournament Participation (considering you have lost every battle) I want to clarify this:
3 duels - best of 3 games (you will play at least 6 matches to end your participation in first stage )---Last Tournament
2 duels - best of 5 games (you will play at least 6 matches to end your participation in first stage )---My Purpose

Dont be troubled by time: I played with my brother to calculate this, and our duel lasted less of an hour.

* FO Tournament.doc (40 KB - downloaded 271 times.)
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alavet
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« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2009, 05:32:42 PM »

Quote
When a Wizard stays alone, he cannot do 2 things: False Charges or use Wings to teleport.
This way he won’t move “fast” and for only be walking will be accessible to Ranged, Cavalries, and Infantries (they can do False Charges in order to catch the Wizard)
I don’t like the Idea of sending him in a “suicide” melee combat. The real problem was “hit & run”, well… if this happens he won’t be able to move very far, the rule converts tactic in a “hit & walk”.
This also allows Wizards to be part of Draw Games (if last Enemy Regiment has “Magic Immunity”)
have you ever played against good vampire user? :-)

didnt read much rest. i will read in future.
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tovertrut
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« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2009, 05:46:00 PM »

i have noticed that special rules for spellcasters are often implanted just because of the vampire,it almost makes me wonder should the vampire be in multiplayer?and if he does belong in it shouldnt the special rules be made just for him?since he can do hit and runs easely when just walking,but other spellcasters would get caught by enemy cavalry or ranged easely.

would be sad to have a regiment not be in multiplayer tho.... :s

if only vampire had 1 less point in movement he wouldnt be such a problem :p
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lordbraprus
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« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2009, 10:10:57 PM »

beside the vampire thing, the other is allright?
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lordbraprus
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« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2009, 12:18:14 AM »

Hello. Im Jeronimo. About vampire, Avalet I played time ago against a good vampire user.

We played without any rule, in the Bretonnian River. I could kill his vampy thanks to the Banner of Wrath (the best Item for that purpose, so consider it when building an army)

These situations are special... your only Vampire surviving (remember max 1 wizard of each type)
He can "hit and walk" as I said, no use of wings (if have it). If we can say something about Vampire is that is the most capable of resisting if engage in melee (3 wounds, 3 attacks, good attributes). In few words, he was made for fight.

I created this rule because I consider that even wizards should be part of Draw Games.
Example: When your wizard is against a Infantry Regiment with SpellEater Shield
Im sure that if you dont want to lose (you have a Vamp)... you will engage in melee, his stats gives you chances.
But poor the guy that has a Goblin Shaman, we can say he has already lost.

Please. Stop considering the Vampire as some kind of God. I have seen vampires retreating of fear (he isnt immune)... vampires dying because of a spell even having "anti-magic balls" spinning around him... etc. It's possible to deal with him.

Considering Melee Suicid Rule of previous Tournament: Let's imagine your Necromancer doesnt have Wings, but you kept him safe with effort, using him wisely, and battle is reaching end... Should I give you the life I have been taking care along all match and lose in that stupid way? No Sir. I do not agree.
Even worse... attacking melee to an Orc Regiment with Morks Banner. Can you see his face when this happens, tell me... can you see him grinning?

Vampire Movement: True, he has 6 mov points when others have 4. When walking will move faster in relation to others Infantries. At least... and this is important: He is NOT "unimpeded by difficult terrain", means that will be walking slowly in certain terrains (remember that cant do False Charges, like others Wizards--same rules for all)
Cavalries will be the best to caught this unit: they HAVE "unimpeded by difficult terrain" (+ False charges).

Talking seriously, until when we will be talking about Vampires? Other Wizards can be so destructive as him... the new gold prices from Fair Omen show he is more than just a common Wizard (also a Warrior), but come on!
Being a Warrior means (talking about "last regiment alive" because this reply is about that Rule) that he will have chances to win in case "Draw Game conditions" presents (Vampire's Player is Hoster)

I hope my post serves to clarify realities about this Unit.
Have you ever played against a good Vampire Killer?  Smiley
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olly
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« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2009, 04:21:03 PM »

"Have you ever played against a good Vampire Killer?"

Check out my Orcs dealing with this Classic Vampire Undead Army  

Dark Omen Special: New Match 4LQ | HQ | by Aeva


My point would be that in 9k Games he isn't as much of a problem as more Units can afford Anti Magic Items.

However, I can still remember a Battle against Darkmancer (many years ago) when we agreed to play a Game that would  show me the power of a Single Vampire, when he beat my whole Army with just his Vampire. Yes it did take along time and that's the Main reason of the Rule, especially in 3k and 5k Tournaments where Time was Precious and its a Gentlemen's Agreement Rule only.

Smiley

« Last Edit: August 08, 2009, 04:41:13 PM by olly » Logged

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lordbraprus
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« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2009, 02:17:59 AM »

Hello. Im Jeronimo.
After thinking in how to improve my Mod, I discovered a way to play Tournaments with 5k/7k.
The solution was to change Items costs. With this change, also Regiments were changed, thats why you will see Basic Regiments costs more expensive (many cases +60 or 120, respeting the multiply of 3 AND not having to use 05 endings)

Why do I call it Final Version? Its because i wont modify it anymore. I tested it with my brother all day. We played with different armies of 3,5,7,9k and used all items. The goal was to see if something was bad priced. Everything is OK.

Of course, this is our point of view after playing many battles with Fair Omen, but now is your turn. What do u think?
A new Doc is here with not only Fair Omen changes, has also the Rules to create a FO Tournament.

I wrote 8 pages. I know its heavy, thats why I ask you to read when you're plenty of time.
Try some matches also, you will taste the real sensation of the Mod. (first impression helps)

INSTALLATION

First of all, extract files where Dark Omen is installed.

For not losing Dark Omen values, make a copy of original "2parm" and keep it in a safe place.
Overwrite carpet "2parm" from GameData with the new "2parm" from my Mod: This has the Regiments changes.

To patch EngRel, you must use programm LIPS (this was needed to compress Engrel archive for being too heavy)
1) Run Lunar IPS programm, press "Apply IPS Patch" (a window opens), click on the Heart Icon called EngRel.
2) A new window opens. SELECT FILE TO PATCH, change type from "Most Common ROM Files" to "All Files (*.*)"
and click on the EngRel archive of Dark Omen. (with this you are changing the Old EngRel with the New, so remember to make a copy of original "EngRel" before)
3) After patching, a message will appear saying that you have made the operation successfully: My EngRel archive brings the new Items costs.
 
It's easy to install. I hope you enjoy this as much as I did with my brother. Goodbye.

* Fair Omen (Mod).zip (25.33 KB - downloaded 186 times.)
* lips101.zip (42.59 KB - downloaded 189 times.)
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ito maquiesves
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« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2009, 08:53:45 AM »

these guys are very experienced on Darko and they have many tactics and many "white" tricks for using mages, cavalry and mages so they are afraid themselves from been atacked using their own "gameplay"

anyways, they have done a great job studying "fair play mode" but i think they still dont recognize they cant pass trhought the "original rules" made from "the original creators of the game" and thats why we still are discusing tópics like "what to do when mage is the last unit"

why do i did this comentary??

because this guy has made another contribution for hole community and instead reading "sugerences" i have read old threads that have never been approved for all members.

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alavet
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« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2009, 07:32:54 AM »

i didn't get "sugerences" thing, but as for FO system i like it better. we need test it in tourney for sure, hope in September we will.

not to be a faggot but:
i still see some balance changes from new 9/30 experience) like firemage 3lvl is udnerpiced, osiris is still maybe too low, etc.. but its okay since its a first release and its ok if prices get fixed after dozen battles appeared
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lordbraprus
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« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2009, 10:27:58 PM »

Hello. Im Jeronimo.

Always remember i made this version because my real purpose is to have fun with players of all the world without having to complain about IMBA prices or playing with extra tables. Happens that with 9k/30 I found myself making an army with the game original prices + another table in my hands, and it becomes a bit annoying when you spend exaclty your 9k but you realize you have used 31 points...
SO, I inverted weeks of my life in order to end this. I'll always consider 9k/30 as a quick patch to fix DO flawed balance, but never as the FINAL CURE that desperatly needs.
The Cure was to recreate Dark Omen, as I did (still Shields aren't changed but i wander if any good willing programmer is figuring out how to do it, so we see this feature possible in future)
Anyway, Fair Omen can perfectly be played in all Gold Limits.

My brother recorded a video where Regiments and Items are showed with their respective Costs and Head numbers.
dark omen with new balanced prices and regiments resizedLQ | LQ+ | HQ | HQ+ | by Aeva


A Fair Omen Tournament will be the real key to place it as the currently system. I understand if you dont like my Experienced Tournament Modality (Endurance battles), you are free to decide.
It wont affect me if organizers prefer to play with NO experience (as usual Tournaments)

Its nice to see Doc and give an opinion (Alavet has made interesting suggestions, thanks to his commentaries, I gave FAIR prices for artillery, Treeman 1200gc, Mummies 960gc, Vampire 840gc, etc), but what I would really like now is to read experiences from gamers; install FO and tell your impressions.
My brother is going to post a battle we had last weekend (9k - empire vs empire). It was awesome, and you will notice the real strenght of dwarves walls staying together Smiley

Are you prepared to take the ship? (funny metaphor)
This question appoints to leave, once for all, DO original (and horrible) numbers.
I dont know if I ll be here (because im studying in another city), but I trust in you people. I trust YOU will employ Fair Omen in the next September Tournament, even if I can't participate (Lord Braprus would replace me)
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lordbraprus
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« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2009, 12:08:26 PM »

Finally, I have updated rules, adding the Battle Communication Code, Rule for Draw Games and how to play SDB (Sudden Death Battles) which are the ones that will give the needed point to create difference between 2 or more players with the same score.

INSTALLATION

First of all, extract files where Dark Omen is installed.

For not losing Dark Omen values, make a copy of original "2parm" and keep it in a safe place.
Overwrite carpet "2parm" from GameData with the new "2parm" from my Mod: This has the Regiments changes.

To patch EngRel, you must use programm LIPS (this was needed to compress Engrel archive for being too heavy)
1) Run Lunar IPS programm, press "Apply IPS Patch" (a window opens), click on the Heart Icon called EngRel.
2) A new window opens. SELECT FILE TO PATCH, change type from "Most Common ROM Files" to "All Files (*.*)"
and click on the EngRel archive of Dark Omen. (with this you are changing the Old EngRel with the New, so remember to make a copy of original "EngRel" before)
3) After patching, a message will appear saying that you have made the operation successfully: My EngRel archive brings the new Items costs.

* Fair Omen (Mod).zip (25.8 KB - downloaded 179 times.)
* lips101.zip (42.59 KB - downloaded 177 times.)
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