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Warhammer Dark Omen Forum | Warhammer Dark Omen | Multiplayer | Rules and Standards
Discussion "How to act in multiplayer"

[bembelimen]

We are talking Gentleman rules here, like dont re-arrange for forever, in tournament decide which army to use before entering the game and so on

I had a small talk with Flak in the chat. Due the fact, that this rules will be "gentlemen" rules, who will only take effect, if both player agree, we thought about the "vamp problem". We (I) wonder, why do we need such a rule? For example Ghabry and me played months without such a rule and it worked, if one player had a mage and the other player various regiments, the player with the mage recognized, that the other player is better, so the mage was moved to cc. Otherwise, if the result was tight, the vamp acted like usual (=no cc).

So my suggestion now is: Could we implement something like a codex (gentlemen agreement) which do NOT force mage to cc but point new player to the credo: if the other player is better, I will stop playing lame?

If we would create this "hard" restriction into a gentlemen agreement (last mage have to go to cc) I think, that there will be many player who feel domineered over.

[Grend]

I had one game where I completely crushed the opponents army with an orc list, but his mage had teleport and fireball. So even though I had every single unit intact, as well as a wizard with superior spells, he insisted on fighting. I think I spent half an hour chasing him, without him killing anything but a troll and a scorp. It fortunately ended when I sniped him with the laser beam spell. What irritated me the most about this was that even if I left the pc, he would have to spend hours killing all my units with the fireball spell. I am very much in favour of the three round proposal, as it leaves the mage a chance to change the outcome if it is nearly a tie, but else it is just annoying and despicable behaviour that ruins the game for everyone.

Imagine in a tournament where your opponent insists on running around like that. He would have to play for hours, wrecking the time schedule as well as winning the fight unfairly in my opinion.

[Crusoe]

finally we are discussin this using "common sense".

differences are granted by our different mode of playing but i think that its obvious that the original gameplay must be preserved, that means or include the game options like movements, deployment, charging and retreting modes, etc.
It isnt so hard to understand it.

Personally, i am the one who "dance" whit the mage against Grend and that has to faces:
- his one.
- my one.

He has just commented his feeling and i am completely agree whit him and all the players whit similar points of view. Its a headache, its sick, its bored, its simply stupid to continue playing against a player who does not "plays".
In my view, it has been a "great relief", a big "luck" and a an excellent choice to have been included a mage on my army. If i wasnt choice a mage i was lost earlier. Again, im completely agree whit all players who has choiced a mage for their armies making it stronger and prepared for the worst.Dont forget that we must choice troops inside a rule posibilities.

I think that both points of view are completely legitimal and i dont understand why some players still continues requesting that mage enters in meele just like they dont wanna listen to other players who has legitimal rights for casting magic from a mage. Cant be more simple.

But "common sense" must be over our "tears" and we must use it to do even better battles, in this case a limited rounds should be a good solution. We also should be talking about how many rounds and no talking about "if mage should or shouldnt use his magic powers" because is simply stupid. The specific thread is taking too long.

---------------
I have tried the system proposed by warhammer (we both); deployment 1 by 1 troop.

- its too slow.
- could be interesting for some battles (depending what kind of troops there are in settled on battlefield)

....but its too slow!!!  it cant be applied.

We tried the system "one deploys all units" and the other player deploys after.
- fast and simple.
- second player can hide his troops same as first player.
- first player "feels" that he is on disvantage because the second player can see his hidden troops.***

***just a "feeling" for me, its like when u play against AI and i dont see a mayor problem about this. In fact, the solution proposed is that the first one who deploys should be the one who hosts.
***it is not possible to add an attack order for players (i thought that it was). In game players decide freely who enganches first; units deployed by players are the one who determinates who chrarges first.

system could be perfectly applied until.....

--------------
Gentelmen agreement is "always on" but we need something more reliable for tournments. Soccer players, tennis players, chess players, DO players, i think that all of them are gentelmen but there are always different criterias, i dont wanna play against a player who has reason and im in reason too, like the battle againts Grend where i finally decide for my own to teleporting the mage near his troops and not in borders, givin him a chance and hoping he finish me soon because i was entering into bore too, not doubt because i had to wait until the ***** magic slots where charged but to the fact that he was bored and game lost his bright.

[alavet]

where i finally decide for my own to teleporting the mage near his troops and not in borders, givin him a chance and hoping he finish me soon

lol, i see what you're doing
you're just tried to tilt him even more. delicious

[Grend]

I did not feel like mentioning your name Crusoe, but since you mention it yourself I guess it is no problem.

In the Warhammer Board Game there is a time limit. After a set amount of time the player with the most victory points is the winner. So if we were to play DO as one plays WFB the game should simply end after so and so many turns, and the player with the most units left should be declared the winner. So after three rounds, if the mage is worth more than the enemy troops, he could be declared the winner.

[Crusoe]

There is no problem Grend, in fact i am very pleased u have entered here and exposed your opinion, its very helpfull too.

Now i see that i forgot about two things more:
0.- Round limits
1.- Time limit.
2.- Point cost.

Those three are our tools for modding.

we should not use another one tool, least those who limit game posibilities.

-------
Personal proposition: (for mages, pistoliers, cavalry using BoW when they are the last unit)

Rounds: 5 (moon cycles)
(0 cant be applied for reasonable reasons exposed, 1 is almost 0, 2 is almost one, 3 is a cero shapped like a 3, 4 is enough but is still a limitation for mage, pistol and cavalry users, 5 is a number that has no controversial criterias)

Time limit: not neccesary to control it since we got moon cycle timer.

Point cost: (based and compared on BGK point cost)
Bright mage: 5 points.
Ice mage: 3 points
Vampire: 6 points
Necromancer: 5 points
Shamen: 2 points.
Pistoliers: 4 points.

......personal opinion

[lordbraprus]

Hello. Im Jeronimo.

MMhh... "How to act in Multiplayer?" I prefer to call it: "What should a new member know to play in Multiplayer?"

We are obviously talking about INSTRUCTIONS to follow. Rules that should be easy to learn... not too complex...
So, I'll write the steps in order to end once for all this DISCUSSION. New members must know these rules and the Battle Communication Code. The same Mechanism im going to expose will be used in Sudden Death Battles (Fair Omen Tournament)

Session Instructions
1) Hoster creates, Guest joins.
2) Hoster chooses army, chooses map and goes to battlefield (press FIGHT)
3) Guest chooses army (seeing enemy's choice) and joins battlefield.

Deployment Phase
1) Hoster deploys first all his Regiments and types **.
2) Guest deploys second (seeing enemy's positions) and types **.
3) Both players assign movement and fire Orders. When are ready, battle starts!

Finishing Battle
1) If there is a clear winner, they both will type xx and click in END button.
2) If a Draw Game condition presents, one will type --, and the other will answer if yes or no.
If says NO, must explain what does he have to change the situation (and make suddenly important damage)
If says YES, both will write xx and no one wins: real Draw, no victory, both defeated.

Its all so clear, so simple, so easy to learn. Any new member will quickly adopt it.
Please... dont add time, round, points limits, all that stuff that will confuse beginners.
Do you agree with me? Can we all adopt these manners to use forever?

[alavet]

i feel so sorry for Jeronimo. you take so much loads energy for all this stuff but the fact is, that new members usually doesn't have much problems with adapting to current rules.
i personally never met any hamachi channel member who doesnt understand/implement our current 3/10+ rules (another questions is about whether its good or not)

i fully understand why you want to improve system but i think you're doing it way too wrong. like your message above - pls reread it - doesnt it smell like a robot play? you're prearing "rules" for the players but actually any "rules" doesnt attract ppl! the less rules we have the better game is (and thats why your FO project feels so good - we only need players to change files once and everything fixed - no need in learningrules. // hovewer there is loads of problems considering it - creating manuals how to change files, changing files right, adding up changes in balance (which will happen most probably on regular basis, and so on... probably thats why such project still not implementd//)

and i hope my post willn't discourage you from participating in community. i might just doesnt answer to that but i think it will be even worse.

now little bit offtopic, but just to clear my view on this process (since i hope my opinion might be considered as "weighty" due of some wins in tournaments //and i know that i not the best player in DO and that torunaments requires some luck etc etc//):

anyway:
- i think that current rule system 3/10, 5/15, 9/30 is rather balanced and provide good base for play. it can be better and we constantly working of improving it (usually after tournaments:D) but still it based on several tournaments and by common view is a good tool preventing disbalances.
- each system (3/10, 5/15) have diffirient point system. its very hard to prepare equal point system, due of special attributes of each army.
for example, value of wraights in 3/10 system is significantly higher than in 5/15, because of their special characteristics - they're very fragile if overhelmed but vs smaller armies they're the strongest weapon. they possibly loose value in 9k armies as well. same might be true for other "special" units which are causing fear, fanatics or unbreakable units. unbreakability icnreases in value vs smaller armies, and loses value vs. bigger ones. and so on.
- allowing increase units in level is very attractive idea and i love your solution how to solve it in price. however its little more difficuilt in point system,  especially for mages. i'm quite sure it might be tweaked for 5/15 armies but the problem still remains in pricing. mages 2nd lvl might be tweaked in points as well but it will be hard job to do, since mages really getting up in value. also allowing 2nd lvl mages will raise up a question with hit-n-run tactics, cause lvl2 mage is way stronger and have much bigger chance to get teleport now. in 9k battles there is usually not very big problems vs mages cause usually 9k includes more stronger units & antimagic items, but 5k army cant afford such things sometimes. also allowing lvl2 mages in 5k battles will probably close the non-mage builds (armybuilds without mages) because mages're so sweet.
- there is no 7/20 rules due of reasons above, where it will be even harder to implment right points.

thats why i not quite sure how Fair Omen or any other "universal" system might be implemented. i think we need give a try to FO and test it in future - maybe gold might balance everything but only time will show..

as for "draw games" and "rules of play for newbies" i think elementary logic & "gentle" sense might solve 90% of game issues

cheers

[lordbraprus]

Hello. Im Jeronimo. What you say is true. I already know this feeling.
Its funny when you try to take down a solid fortress. All this metaphorically said.
Ideas, the world spins around ideas.
Try to change your son first toy. He will offer resistance. Because everyone feels comfortable with the first thing they have in their hands. Lets say I come with new toys (my rules/systems/ideas). Even if what i propose ends being better than the first toy you had, it has high chances to NOT be accepted.
Thats the sad part of this world. Is the human true nature. We are babies with fear to change

I wrote all that stuff because I was eager to give solutions to all threads. I think i have done well my work.
I dont know if this phrase will help you, but is another reality I learned while working with my first jobs.
"Destroying means progressing", When its about Ideas, only destroying first ones and allowing evolved to take place, we can say there has been an improvement in something.

The key is Destruction. Mental Destruction.  No one will do this, so whatever. Reality is Reality. Greetings Alavet.

[bembelimen]

We are obviously talking about INSTRUCTIONS to follow.

No, we're talking about gentlemen agreements. Something like Ms Manners. It shouldn't be something like: you have to do, it's more: we suggest, that you act like this to play fair and don't upset your opponent, but we don't force player to act like this.

Session Instructions
2) Hoster chooses army, chooses map and goes to battlefield (press FIGHT)
3) Guest chooses army (seeing enemy's choice) and joins battlefield.

I always play, that both choose at the same time the army and both press at the same time "fight". So I think, it's really fair and the 2nd player don't create armys like: "If my opponent uses empire, I will use this army", we'll have fights with different armies independent from the opponents choice.

Deployment Phase
1) Hoster deploys first all his Regiments and types **.
2) Guest deploys second (seeing enemy's positions) and types **.
3) Both players assign movement and fire Orders. When are ready, battle starts!

Same here, I always deplay at the same time as my opponent and say "rdy" (yep, I have in the deployment phase enough time to write it). My opponent can now start the game (or write "rdy"/"ready"/"ok" too) and I will press start. Otherwise he say "no"/"one moment" etc. and I have time to reorder my army till the next player says "rdy"/"ready". I had never problems with this way of action, and even if, then I point it out, that we'll press together "start".

Finishing Battle
1) If there is a clear winner, they both will type xx and click in END button.

If there is a clear winner, I know who has won

2) If a Draw Game condition presents, one will type --, and the other will answer if yes or no.
If says NO, must explain what does he have to change the situation (and make suddenly important damage)
If says YES, both will write xx and no one wins: real Draw, no victory, both defeated.

Did you ever had a draw in Dark Omen? I had never, if my opponent has a lame teleporting mage, I stand in a corner and wait for him defeating me (or perhaps I can defeat him with a luck shoot). For that, we have the gentlemen agreement "Don't play lame." (This point is also the reason, why we don't fore player to follow this rules, cause a lame teleport mage is part from Dark Omen, and we don't want cut down or ban stuff from Dark Omen)

Please... dont add time, round, points limits, all that stuff that will confuse beginners.

Read the post, we have no time/point/round limit in it.

Do you agree with me? Can we all adopt these manners to use forever?

Not in that way you suggest...

[lordbraprus]

[Jeronimo] Bembelimen. I called this "Default Battle" because allows to follow a order of steps ("Steps" seems to be more acceptable, instead of Instructions), that guarantees a fair battle, no matter how gentleman can people be.
The main reason: Will be used in SDB (yes, Sudden Death Battle), and means equal advantages for both sides. Once this was thoguht, I saw no problem to use it for all battles also. Thats why my suggestion to adopt it.

Session Instructions

Hoster is able to choose a preferrable map for his army.
Is the same for you to play with The Empire (superior artillery) or Undead in the hill of Troll Lands?
An advice: Orc Camp Scenario is suitable for Goblins Army. Both players start close each other, means that Fanatics Goblins will be more effective due your enemy will have few space to move.
All this stuff is important. And hoster has the advantage... he will surely have a good strategy considering the Map beyond opponent's choice.

"If my opponent uses empire, I will use this army": + the map he has chosen. Dont forget that Bembelimen. Persons dont create armies in the way you say because of the maps variety, although he can prepare something like... if he chooses Greenskins, I will play him with the army that has Horn of Urgok.
And if enemy chooses Empire, there are still infinite combinations to do there (Empire has 18 Regiments).

Both players clicking on start: Hoster has always to click first, otherwise GAME CRASHES. Happened to me many times playing against my brother.

Deployment Phase

You are not the first in making a joke about my code idea. Obviously, all persons can type "rdy". The code appointed to express feelings in a 2 seconds way, instead of having to write sentences while fighting or boosting a Regiment. Also, determinates a different way of communication among Dark Omen members, not seen in other games, providing not only practical, also spiritual advantages (original reinforce identity).
Regretably, the "Organization commands" were taken as hilarious.

Finishing battle

Writing xx, is a replacement of gg. Why? To reinforce community with a neutral expression. All symbols of code are NEUTRAL, no matter the country, the part of the world, ?? !! $$, makes everything more neutral. GG, LOL, ROFL, OMG are just english short expression used ALL around the world, but have their Base in the English structure language.
I know what happens: the Culture is so strong, that everyone prefers talking with the internet english slang instead of creating an own code. Its fine. I understand you.
Have you ever tried to change the first toy of a baby? (Reflection)

In the very depths of your minds, some agree and others dont with my idea. "I call all member to complete our own code".... No iniciative or no approvement?

Finishing battle

If I had had Draw Games Conditions? Yes. One example: Against Olly in 9k/30 Tournament. My goblin archers against his Mummies. Isnt it a typicall Draw Condition? Of course, because no one wrote about this (and I thought in the solution afterwards), guess what: I had to suicide my goblins archers in a melee combat (stupid Vampire Rule applied to this ocassion) --- 1 point for Olly!
So... why dont accept my steps to follow? New (and old) members wont have problems to adapt: are easy and clear to follow. No more reasons to get angry or complain.

I read the post about currently rules: Dont convince me. That part of "play lame" wont exist anymore if "hit and walk" is implemented.

"Do you agree with me? Can we all adopt these manners to use forever?": If you understood my strong arguments, I dont see the problem.
If you still prefer leaving many things at "random" with the gentlemen agreement and not considering map choice, deployment order (because of before map choice), typical moments to draw (both lose, see my DOC), etc. I understand the phrase "Not in that way you suggest..."

Is up to you (and other admins). Waiting for a convincing answer to end my fight.

[tovertrut]

wouldnt using things like ?? !! $$   just cause way more confusion then it would solve?

typing things like rdy,gg and lol are globaly accepted everyone knows em and they work(they are alrdy made short to be able to type easely ingame)chaning em would sort of be like...americans changing their language because they want to be different and feel it would be better for people speak american(new language they would make)instead of english since they they dont live in england and want to reinforce an american feeling of community....hope im still making sense

by the way the best manner of making communications ingame easier is by putting up a voice chat server(ventrilo,teamspeak,...)

[Kypper]

wouldnt using things like ?? !! $$   just cause way more confusion then it would solve?

typing things like rdy,gg and lol are globaly accepted everyone knows em and they work(they are alrdy made short to be able to type easely ingame)chaning em would sort of be like...americans changing their language because they want to be different and feel it would be better for people speak american(new language they would make)instead of english since they they dont live in england and want to reinforce an american feeling of community....hope im still making sense

by the way the best manner of making communications ingame easier is by putting up a voice chat server(ventrilo,teamspeak,...)

I... totally disagree. "rdy" is a ugly version of a word, as a Grammarnazi I cannot allow this, and not everybody here has a fluent English (not me at least). :-°

[alavet]

wouldnt using things like ?? !! $$   just cause way more confusion then it would solve?

typing things like rdy,gg and lol are globaly accepted everyone knows em and they work(they are alrdy made short to be able to type easely ingame)chaning em would sort of be like...americans changing their language because they want to be different and feel it would be better for people speak american(new language they would make)instead of english since they they dont live in england and want to reinforce an american feeling of community....hope im still making sense

by the way the best manner of making communications ingame easier is by putting up a voice chat server(ventrilo,teamspeak,...)

I... totally agree

[lordbraprus]

[Jeronimo] Alavet and Tovertrut: Still convinced that a own Code is "obliged to" and not "unified by"?

"wouldnt using things like ?? !! $$   just cause way more confusion then it would solve?"

No. Have you tried using those signs? Where do you see Confusion? !! ?? are easy to understand, it means something of that kind is happening now in battle. I didnt suggest expressions like "7hk" or "=9Ç"

By the way, everyone knows the English Internet slang, but... it doesnt have expressions like "On ho, my men are suddenly retreating, fuckin cowards, you paid them money at my backs hehe" ( $$ )

About your English, American, blah blah blah, dont misunderstand my purpose. The "2 symbols" expressions are neutral SYMBOLS, dont think I had this idea only because im not a english speaker or whatever (if your argument comes from that part)

Ventrilo or Teamspeaker is not necessary. The easiest way to "improve" fast communication is with a code.
One more thing... only 6 commands (3 organization, 3 expressions) Wow, what confusing! We arent retarded, are we?

Do you know "Chess language"? They have ! for good moves and ? for bad or doubtful moves.
Thanks god that Chess is clean from internet slangs. Neutral symbols for Dark Omen! (gives it a unique status)

Feel free to use your expressions, although its obvious your freedom will end with gg lol rofl.
At least give your freedom to something unique (and being part of it), you slave of internet culture.

OH... still stubborn? Kypper understands what i mean.
Please, dont consider me as a new BAD BOY that appears and says: "You are gonna play my game, under my fuckin rules, under my fuckin code, under my..."
Everything I propose are multiple solutions to existing problems.
The code idea appeared when I couldnt type a intelligible sentence playing against my brother to express my indignation about my Ogres performance ( I dont use Internet slang, what keeps my mind clean to think in topics like this). The true is many times I had the same problem: letters pressed didnt appear or at low speed what wasnt convenient and obliged me to play as Mute most battle.

( "LOL" ) lots of laugh , it doesnt create the minor ilussion you are laughing
Try an innocent hahaha or !! (that will caught my attention)

Continue this conversation in the topic of the Code. Here is how to act in multiplayer: combines the steps + the code. If your only problem is to employ a code, write there. About steps what are the "default battle" settings, write here.