Well, that about proves it. I already did tests in multiplayer a while back with my brother. You don't get XP or gold from summoned creatures. This shows you don't get it in multiplayer either.
Yeah, so I started the first mission and thought 'no cannon? Nice, no easy luring the enemy in tactics!' I deployed everything and started the first round. 2 Ballista's kill off 4 units with their shot. While I'm grinding my teeth about losing 4 dudes before the game even started a mortar shell crashes into a regiment killing 15 of the 16.
Yeah this one is the hardest I've played so far.
The map where the enemy has 3 cannons spread in each corner... brutal. All that artillery forces you to act, and keep acting. I realised I was doing more realistic combat with this game than any other game I've ever played. I usually have at least one regiment as reserve for any type of situation, and they happen a lot.
The relative weakness of your units with low armour is both a blessing and a curse throughout the campaign so far. They are all cheap to replace but make one mistake and they end up as kebab. Since you need to destroy armies easily twice as big as yours it's easy to earn enough money to replace almost all of them even if several regiments are nearly wiped out.
The addition of allied regiments that aren't under your control is very nice, they force a pace on the whole map that I wouldn't expect otherwise. Trying to keep up with the allied regiments to keep them alive and use them as extra punching power is tough but rewarding as opposed to letting them die.
And then those Wights! If you don't use every tactic you have one regiment can kill off 3/4th of your army. My first experience with them all went perfectly smooth with minimal losses until these guys litterally killed off 3 of my regiments before they fled. Even when you are prepared they need a constant rain of arrows, icicles and two rear attacks to kill them off. And every single damn mage has a WOJ. They are magic piniata's that spray death wherever they look. After my bazillionth try of the square church village I managed to get out with barely any losses. Only the necromancer survived. He retargets my Ice mage unexpectedly and BAM, game over bye bye Ice Mage.
Definitely waiting for the rest of the campaign. This is the type of hard settings I grew up with.
So I've been fiddling a bit. I have made several infantry units for Empire and Greenskin. While creating they have gotten some unique features that are still under my own review .
I want to test these groups against eachother before continuing. Balancing of all units will take a long time, better to start now before I move on to other balance issues such as infantry vs mounted, archers vs infantry/mounted etc. I got a laptop and PC to try it out on but I don't know how to push my own units into the game. Anywhere where i can find how to do that?
Flaming head must be one of the best spells in the game, if not THE best. By aiming it yourself instead of clicking the banner you can decimate an entire regiment. Especially with a flanking attack. The best hits are when you kill so many that the regiment re-arranges and the troops are basicly throwing themselves underneath the slow-moving Head. Whenever I throw a Flaming Head there's about 50% chance a regiment is about to shit their pants and flee.
I have different experiences with Meteor. Often it deals less than 3 kills. While it does force a few fear-checks I have much better experience with a single Flaming Head. It's also not very accurate, often missing my intended target by a Regiment's width.
Does Ere-we-go give some initiative and armour bonus as well? I always found that Regiments with Ere-we-go survived longer and had waaaaaaay less casualties even when engaged with two regiments. In fact, I use it on my Mages all the time to help them survive battles and gain XP faster since their attack spells suck. Could it be that the extra strength with possible extra initiative helps them kill units before they ever deal damage?
It's a shame I can't remember what mod I currently have my DO on. But I doubt it matters much.
Take a look at the bright wizard. The only thing I did with him the entire battle was crimson bands, about 5 times. I didn't do a single attack and he never got into a fight. He hasn't got a single kill... but he's got 1260 XP. (for anyone wondering why the imperial cannon got so much kills, it's modded to be 4x Blunderbuster Ogres).
Anyone got an idea where the XP could be comming from?
Another suggestion: In the data sheet it is opted to have units size determine their solidity and/or power. You could add in something like Size+armour. Armour is affected by the creature size. So a creature size 10 (in a scale 1-100) is a small Goblin. 30 a Human. 60 a Human on a horse. 70 a Giant and 100 is something truly massive and heavy. The bigger something is, the more weight is added for each additional armor. A giant carrying a shield won't be carrying a goblin shield. So the final result of solidity, required to determine if they can be pushed back, would be the size and armour combined. An unarmoured human is much lighter and easier to push back then the same human in full plate and shield that is heavier then the human carrying it. Not to mention the added weight on a full-clad giant...
I'm still reading into the WARTBED program but I'm excited about it . Gameplay above graphix!
Now I don't have a real background into the warhammer games and their workings, but I suspect a few ideas outside of those type of games wouldn't be amiss.
My first suggestion has already been mentioned somewhat: Keep it simple enough. Every unit needs to be intuitive in it's use. When you select it, you should know instantly what it can and can't do. If it has abilities they would be easy to use with as little selecting and targeting as possible. Games like the lates Tiberium Wars and Red Alert 3 failed in that respect. Every single unit had a different ability, most of them not very intuitive and it's hell to use a mixed-army ability.
Second: give every unit a 'fortify' command. Each regiment has their own bonus gotten from it. Example: Pikemen dig in their pikes and ready themselves for a Cavalry attack. If charged by Cavalry the Pikemen get a bonus attack and damage for the first round. Normal footsoldiers get ready to deflect incoming arrows with their shields and whatnot. Any ballistics team sets up their stuff. Archers put arrows in the ground in front of them style or something to fire faster. Other groups could prepare fire-arrows for bigger damage potentials. Bad stuff of fortify is that it takes longer for units to get moving again. Pikemen need to drag pikes out of the ground, Bowmen etc need to extinguish their fires and/or put arrows back in their packs, footmen need to get better bearings after lowering their shields etc.
Third: Siege battles. Especially nice in case of multi-team games. But absolutely possible in small fortresses. Allow one team to assault a fortification. This can be a full-fledged castle, with mounts where your artillery can be placed, others could be small outposts. Nothing more then a few wooden walls or even just a hill with a circular ditch at the top to slow down enemies, and anything in between. While full-fledged siege warfare with ladders, giant towers and rams would be great I think it's best to keep it simple: Doors and gates can be broken down with simply attacking it, perhaps place a few items on the ground that can function as oil or tar that can be used to burn the gates down or function as a Ram item, basicly just giving them a large bonus attack when in 'combat' with gates. Futher get a few routes into the fortress. Some elevations and special spots for archers to besiege enemy attackers, both outside and inside the gates. Allow infantry to go through small gaps between buildings (if attacked while going through a gap it counts as a flank or rear attack) while mounted divisions are forced around the bigger paths inside the fortress.
Fourth: Terrain obstacles From what I understand, maps will have a much larger scale. This opts for much more refined obstacles, from a small group of trees to entire forested area's. Rocks, jagged peaks, rips in the ground, rivers, lakes, bridges (destroyable?), battles inside villages with houses and narrow streets where smaller regiments can move much faster. Allow for destroyables! Burn down houses (stay clear or you might burn a few of your own), break down bridges to prevent flanks, trample high-grass to get more vision (in fact, a whole map filled with high grass where you can't see any enemy until you are on top of them... Trample grass in stragetic swathes and set up scouts watching them, set up archers nearby that can cover the swathes and you can spring ambushes, would be great!)
Fifth: tactical retreat. Currently any fleeing regiment is pancaked instantly. I would rather have a system underneath to allow for skirmishers to hit&run. Imagine this: You attack an enemy regiment in H2H combat. But you want to disengage. You can rout your troops manually. At this point a few things are taken into consideration. 1: speed of both groups. The faster the routing group is compared to the enemy, the more likely they will not 'rout' but 'tactical retreat' 2: Current morale of the routing group. Once routing starts, a morale check is needed. If they fail the check they will rout and flee, if they succeed they will go into 'tactical retreat'. Having higher speed then the enemy boosts their morale. 3: if necessary, the enemy team can complete part of it's last combat phase and deal damage as the regiment retreats. 4: A regiment in tactical retreat will be able to receive orders, but has a penalty on pathing until they regroup.
Once in tactical retreat, they will run away from the enemy regiment. They will not flee the battle and when attacked by another regiment will act as if they weren't fleeing. A regiment caught in a tactical retreat will have a penalty on strength in the first combat round.
What would this accomplish? You would create the possibility to create real skirmishers and hit&run melee regiments. Skirmisher infantry groups could get a large benefit when charging, 2 attacks the first round for instance instead of one or a good strength bonus. After the initial attack they can retreat and regroup somewhere else for a new attack. Cavalry groups with lances would be able to act more like middle-age knights, who would sometimes charge in, disengage en charge again once they created enough distance. While effective, there are ofcourse enough drawbacks to make it something tactical and not spammable. If your morale fails you have a fleeing regiment that can be crushed underfoot. If you manage to catch a regiment in tactical retreat you are probably attacking them in the flank or rear. Lastly, a regiment in tactical retreat will not regroup instantly. So if you disengage in a multi-regiment battle to get some extra attacks in you will have to wait for it to reform before you can engage again. If you make it so that it takes at least one up to two battlerounds before they reform you are effectively losing possible attacks in the battle.
Currently there are a lot of rules everyone has made to deal with imbalances in the game. Having a fear inducing, heavily armoured, hard-hitting and fast group of Cavalry for reasonable prices is all fun and all but also introduces imbalances when 3 regiments of cheaper units have so little attack and damage they will surely lose. Not to mention tactics with Wizards or Pistoliers capable of annihilating entire armies with a single regiment.
The goal would be that any mixed armies would be best used instead of single-unit armies. Preferably there will be at least two types of regiments capable of dealing with one type of other regiment. For instance, one cavalry and one infantry type capable of dealing with hit&run style shooters like pistoliers, probably by being faster or more manoeuvrable. And perhaps two types of units with automatic anti-magic capabilities to deal with late-game wizards teleporting all over the place. An infantry type and one specialised unit like a monster designed to have extra attack against Cavalry. A group of units that is capable of casting ice-shield to protect against arrows, but are slow enough that a light & fast cannon-fodder regiment like Zombies or Night Goblins can intercept them. etc etc.
Key would be to shift which units are capable of what per faction. Empire might have magic-protection in the form of large, rune-inscribed war-machines and Infantry regiments capable of dispel magic. Greenskins would sport their magic resistant Trolls and perhaps a monster-type Cavalry regiment with magic resistance Undead could sport magic resistant chariots and a group of dispel-magic capable archers.
You get the gist, a counter against wizards in the Empire would be a different regiment than the counter the Greenskins could field. Creating more unique tactics and capabilities among all factions.
Hello, I'll be trying to make a new army mod. I'll try to post updates in here as well as hope to get people to discuss some changes I intend to make.
First a question. For the Empire I want to create a type of melee warmachine. I want to do this by altering the warmachine to have a melee weapon and be attackable (easy in Wh32edit). Question is: will any steam-tank in combat crash the game? There aren't any attack sprites ofcourse... Whats more, with the 'engine of war' rule off, will it still be able to crush enemies by driving over them? That would be a bit disastrous, imagine a fleeing steamtank that the enemy regiment is trying to keep up with. The entire regiment would crush itself under the fleeing steamtanks treads.
For those interested in what I am planning. I want to introduce a more rock-paper scissors kind of gameplay.
Infantry can fulfil different roles. Polearms would be used to engage cavalry. Broadswords and similar as anti-infantry and normal weapons for standard combat. -Light infantry functioning as cheap ass skirmishers or cannon fodder, small-medium squads, good manouvering, pretty fast when it can walk around. (just examples, you don't need to agree with these units, Grudgebringer infantry, Countess guard, outlaw infantry, night goblins, zombies) -Medium infantry functioning as Shocktroopers to take the brunt of any assault, medium-large squads, medium manouvering, slow units.(Skeletons, ghouls, Orc Boys, imperial greatswords, dwarf warriors) -Heavy infantry (cheaper then Heavy Horse and also for heavy combat), small-large squads, varied manouvering depending on size, very slow. (Flagellants, Orc Big un's, Mummies, Wights) -Light horse, small-medium squads, very good manouvering, extremely fast units to run down stuff or tear into archer/artillery units. Light armor but have a good punch. (Carlson's cavalary, Ragnars wolves, Skeleton horsemen) -Heavy horse, small-large squads, tough manouvering, heavy armor means slow movement slightly faster then Light Infantry (Orc boar boys, Knights of the Realm, Grail knights, Black Grail knights, Grudgebringer cavalry) -Special units, usually small squads with a lot of varying abilities. (wraiths, wizards, Treemen, chariot, spiders, scorpions, trolls, etc). Note that this is just a quick mockup, the actual abilities etc should still vary from faction to faction, but a more clear line between units could help create a better balance. Attacking archers would be more profitable with light horse then Heavy horse as light horse can close the distance faster. Cheaper units can still be fielded without being nothing more then a temporary barrier that deals practically no damage to the ultra-heavy units like Black Grail.
Ofcourse it would be important to make all 3 factions unique. If they are carbon copies there would be a lot of fun lost. Now I'm not well-versed in Warhammer lore, so if these idea's aren't in line with it tell me and I'll try to change it.
Greenskins seem to be a mix of low-power to Heavy hitters, missing a medium choice. Goblins are a bunch of easy-to-scare and lacking a punch groups more meant as cannon fodder than anything else, while their Orc Archers are already a full melee group with the added power of arrows. I would try to enforce this rift by giving the greenskin armies either ultra-light units or Heavy, tough creatures. Their 'abilities' seem to be centered on sly cunning (fanatics) and physical abilities (regeneration, 360 view) mixed with mystical abilities that boost the unit itself (magic resistance). These would be the unique factors I would try to put into the army.
Empire is a middle ground. I would give them lower damage potentials per-turn than Orcs. The empire mostly seems to rely on ingenuity to win: Steam tanks, cannons, crossbows, pistols and a lot of well-build armors to protect their men. I would give them the ability to wear the most armor in the game and give them the most tactical advantages given to them by their ingenuity, such as larger arrow range, slightly faster troops and good manouvering.
The Undead are in my eyes large groups of meatbags in worn armor. They would get a lot more hitpoints (An arrow in dead flesh doesn't do much) but low armor ratings compared to the other two factions. They would rely mostly on fearless warriors as well as mystical and psychological abilities that are projected on their enemies rather then themselves (Fear, ignore armor) and a few on themselves (incorporeal).
Is there a good introduction in modding Dark Omen somewhere here? I assume there is but I'm short on time atm to look for it.
I would also like a more expanded group of units available. My ideal vision would have only a few options where one unit-type can easily wipe out an army with only a small variation, such as Wraiths going up against a no-magic army. The best thing that could happen is that there are enough options for every army to build just about any army-type you want. I'm still thinking what the best trade-offs would be for each group. If I am going to mod it, I would probably end up making my own regiment types rather then using the current one's.
Now I'm not well-versed in Warhammer lore, so if these idea's aren't in line with it tell me and I'll try to change it.
Greenskins seem to be a mix of low-power to Heavy hitters. Goblins are a bunch of easy-to-scare and lacking a punch groups more meant as cannon fodder than anything else, while their Archers are already a full melee group with the added power of arrows. I would try to enforce this rift by giving the greenskin armies either ultra-light units or Heavy, tough creatures. Their 'abilities' seem to be centered on sly cunning (fanatics) and physical abilities (regeneration, 360 view) mixed with mystical abilities that boost the unit itself (magic resistance). These would be the unique factors I would try to put into the army.
Empire is a middle ground. I would give them lower damage potentials per-turn than Orcs. The empire mostly seems to rely on ingenuity to win: Steam tanks, cannons, crossbows, pistols and a lot of well-build armors to protect their men. I would give them the ability to wear the most armor in the game and give them the most tactical advantages given to them by their ingenuity, such as larger arrow range, slightly faster troops and good manouvering.
The Undead are in my eyes large groups of meatbags in worn armor. They would get a lot more hitpoints (An arrow in dead flesh doesn't do much) but low armor ratings compared to the other two factions. They would rely mostly on fearless warriors as well as mystical and psychological abilities that are projected on their enemies rather then themselves (Fear, ignore armor) and a few on themselves (incorporeal).
Some people in this thread say that the Wizard was designed as a hit&run vehicle. It's clearly not, if it was it would ALWAYS have teleport. The wizard is more like a mix between a moving artillery piece and archers. Capable of cashing out incredible damage in short time but needs protection.
Let me comment on one of the video's posted here. In some of them you don't even SEE the mage turn up until the battle is lost. The player was literally just weakening you and hoping he could win with his forces. When he couldn't he shows up with a mage that generally just hops around the field, ripping apart any regiment by sheer time.
There is nothing wrong with wizards themselves. Their power is curbed by being just one person and their relative weakness in melee or when being shot at. Where it goes wrong is that he can stay out of shot from arrows and melee indefinitely just because he has a teleport spell. No single unit should be powerful enough that if you haven't prepared it, that single unit (not a mass of that unit, just that single unit) can destroy your entire army. Sure, there is no 100% guarantee that you get this ability, but the fact that you CAN get the ability to destroy an entire army with one unit and patience proves it's unbalanced. There are multiple ways around this. Increase the price of teleport, decrease the range of teleport by making it have either a maximum range so it can't teleport away/to enemies far away, or to have it be a 'visial range' spell that you can only use on anything in direct visual range of your caster like a cannon so your enemy will ALSO be able to see you regardless if you teleported away. Now people will say 'you can use a spelleater shield/banner to counter it'. Yes and no, it doesn't protect for 100% in my experience, just elongating the 'battle'. You should also not be forced to protect those units from beginning to end just in case they have a mage in the background. I would be perfectly happy with removing teleport altogether. Mages would become perfectly capable and powerful siege-support units capable of cashing out great damage from behind the lines with more accuracy and less friendly fire then archers or cannons ever will. With enough magic points you can also wipe out an entire regiment faster then almost any other unit can. They are pretty balanced without teleport, and it would make the gap between shamans/ice wizard (who cannot have teleport) and the necro/bright wizard/vampire smaller and fairer.
As soon as the mage is solved, people will turn to units as pistoliers to use as hit&run tactics. At least they can be countered by a nice big siege engine, archers (if they don't have Ptolos), a mage, a regiment as cannon fodder wearing Ptolos or some cavalry. They have a lot more options then 'another mage or spelleater shield'. If necessary you could build in some small nerfs to the character like having a less consistent 'charge', forcing a longer regroup period afterwards so other units have an easier time catching up. You could also make them turn around slower somehow so they take longer to aquire a target and to change direction to flee. It would still allow the hit&run tactics they are meant for but they would require more backup from other units to do so safely.
Last but not least, any rule that forces one player to give up is detrimental to the game. If the player will win with almost 100% chance because of a single unit suddenly has to suicide because of, you know, 'rules'. People don't tend to want to agree with it. If the player who defeated an entire army and came off with several regiments left suddenly comes to a standstill because of one uncatchable unit it's unfair to him. So whatever happens, the suicide rule or the 'Im gonna ***** up your day because I'll just abuse one element in the game', it's not fun for either one. We shouldn't be looking at creating subjectively enforced rules here, we should be looking at creating balanced units.
After reading most of the rule-sets in these forums, I realised that it's trying to combat symptoms instead of the ailment.
The fact that you can play lame means there is an imbalance. Instead of creating rules that rely on both players abiding to them, if they even know about them, it would be better to solve the roots of the problem.
The Horn is an incredible item as it can send units fleeing, turning them into cannon fodder for anyone walking through, and taking the rest out of the fight as long as they flee. Not to mention the fear-resistant Undead benefiting more of it's effects then Orcs/humans. Instead of banning it or making it expensive, you can curb it's effects. If possible allow it to rally troops at it's current radius. For it's effect on enemy regiments you can make the effect so small you need to be in combat with them to have it work.
Teleport is obviously overpowered. You can easily teleport in, blast an enemy and be back before they react. Even against the AI they have barely any time to react when done properly, let alone a human player that is managing armies outside of the view of the attacked regiment. Increasing it's mana consumption to 3, or creating a maximum distance it can be used it are great ways to limit it's effectiveness, especially the hit&run tactics that evolve near the end of a match that I encountered against my brother.
Some regiments are obviously overpowered, otherwise there wouldn't be any rules to limit how many you can have. You could limit their power by increasing their costs or building in vulnerabilities. Having a fearless, heavily armored, maximum-fear inducing, heavily hitting and fast horse-regiment is all great and all but shouldn't there be trade-offs? Example: -Light infantry functioning as cheap ass skirmishers or cannon fodder, small-medium squads, good manouvering, pretty fast when it can walk around. (just examples, you don't need to agree with these units, Grudgebringer infantry, Countess guard, outlaw infantry, night goblins, zombies) -Medium infantry functioning as Shocktroopers to take the brunt of any assault, medium-large squads, medium manouvering, slow units.(Skeletons, ghouls, Orc Boys, imperial greatswords, dwarf warriors) -Heavy infantry (cheaper then Heavy Horse and also for heavy combat), small-large squads, varied manouvering depending on size, very slow. (Flagellants, Orc Big un's, Mummies, Wights) -Light horse, small-medium squads, very good manouvering, extremely fast units to run down stuff or tear into archer/artillery units. Light armor but have a good punch. (Carlson's cavalary, Ragnars wolves, Skeleton horsemen) -Heavy horse, small-large squads, tough manouvering, heavy armor means slow movement slightly faster then Light Infantry (Orc boar boys, Knights of the Realm, Grail knights, Black Grail knights, Grudgebringer cavalry) -Special units, usually small squads with a lot of varying abilities. (wraiths, wizards, Treemen, chariot, spiders, scorpions, trolls, etc). Note that this is just a quick mockup, the actual abilities etc should still vary from faction to faction, but a more clear line between units could help create a better balance. Attacking archers would be more profitable with light horse then Heavy horse as light horse can close the distance faster. Cheaper units can still be fielded without being nothing more then a temporary barrier that deals practically no damage to the ultra-heavy units like Black Grail.
I did a few tests with my brother yesterday. We found out that, at least in multiplayer, you do not get any gold or XP for killing zombies, even though the kills are recorded. We tested it by using 3 level 3 vampires with the standard 3 magic buffs to maximise the amount of chance on a raise dead spell (using a money cheat for more vampires would have been better but we had 100% of the time at least one raise dead spell) Then the other team used magic and arrows to decimate the zombies as fast as I could summon them. If you intent to do something similar yourself, I suggest taking a cheap 4th regiment and equipping it with a spelleater shield (it can be one dropped by your opponent so he can keep supplying mana). At the end, kill all vampires (use orcs with Morks banner for 100% quick success) After that, do the same scenario, only you kill the vampires instantly. You will see that your XP and gold will the the exact same as in the scenario where you killed all the zombies (assuming you didn't get any gold chests)
So at least in Fair Omen Multiplayer, you earn no gold or XP from it. Which is pretty bad in my opinion as proper usage of these zombies can potentially be very powerful. I used it pretty well VS orc/goblin shamans to keep them grounded for a short time while other forces get more time to get away/get in his way. I also use it a lot as an undispellable temporary wall, or to charge cowardly goblin regiments, throw them around the flank of the right goblin regiment and you can have all their fanatics spinning harmlessly around their own regiments. When used at as a wall, nothing is more perfect for a nice soul drain or magic attack through their mids, they are the most expendable unit you can think off. I am even considering as I write this to try things like giving them the heart of woe at the beginning of the stage, they are easily routed and killed for a nice starting damage in combat. With any luck your opponent will just leave it lie as manouvering to get it takes time, and you can summon another group on top of the heart and do a rematch, something to try out later. If you have teleport, raise dead is loads better then the fire field of the bright mage VS archer regiments, stops them firing instantly, they can't run out of it and if you are lucky you can do a backstab on them, hopefully routing them in the process.
I think you should earn something from summoned zombies, absolutely not much, but something. Still need to see a way to test this in single player now.
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