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Author Topic: SHIELDS evolution  (Read 6903 times)
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Jeronimo
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« on: November 12, 2009, 07:14:34 PM »

I wander when this will be figured out. Its urgent to make them attractive for adding a new element in our "edited armies".
After making some tests with Editor, I could find out how evolves the cost.

There is a UNIQUE system for all regiments, I thought was depending ID/type/class... but I was wrong.

SHIELDS
Current Level 0: 10gc per head
Current Level 1: 30gc per head
Current Level 2: 60gc per head
Current Level 3: 100gc per head
Current Level 4: 150gc per head
Current Level 5: MAX.

The following Cost is "gold x units" required to obtain next Shield. Its the same for Infantry, Cavalry, Ogres, etc (you can check my info in multiplayer). This means there is no secret or special type (I thought Ogres were special but they arent).

So... 1 system that affects cavalries, archers, infantry, etc. This takes me to re-elaborate the shield's system of FO.
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alavet
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« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2009, 07:05:46 AM »

so do you mean that you cracked the "code" and now able to change shields cost, but mannually for each unit?
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Jeronimo
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« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2009, 06:08:55 AM »

No. I didnt crack the code. I just discovered how works.
1 system for all regiments, no matter the type, and how costs the next shield.

Cavalries start with "2 Mounted Shields". Is it a stronger shield than "Ground Type"? Not really.
In fact cavalries shields are worse because the "Mounted type" means they receive extra-damage from Polearm.
So its balanced: +1 shield than Ground Troops but with the disadvantage against pikes.

Considering the info above I consider a good idea making all levels x10gc. They will be cheap, also for cavalry.
Example: Mercenary Cavalry (12 units) full shields: 360 gold (2+3x120gc = 5 armor)

Dont forget Magic Swords can impact through all shields, many proyectils too, and specially all casting attacks.

PD: Its 1 more step closer to the discover of cracking this feature.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 06:14:05 AM by Jeronimo » Logged
tovertrut
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« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2009, 12:47:48 AM »

wow....
when u say:
Cavalries start with "2 Mounted Shields". Is it a stronger shield than "Ground Type"? Not really.
In fact cavalries shields are worse because the "Mounted type" means they receive extra-damage from Polearm.
So its balanced: +1 shield than Ground Troops but with the disadvantage against pikes.


i had discussions about this before,and complained how in mark of chaos units with spears or halbreds(and other pole arm weapons)are classed giantslayers wich makes them do extra dmg against large,huge and giant creatures and that this does not seem to be the case in dark omen.

nowhere in dark omen(not with unit info,op in the game manual it says anything about this,the stats also mention nothing about doin extra dmg against a larger enemy)

i also have not seen alot of difference when i send my halbrediers against cav units.

i know dark omen is a badly explained game(as there are many rules active in the game that are not explained in the unit description or the game manual)so....where have u found info that in dark omen polearms do extra dmg against large units?i know dark omen should follow tabletoprules ut this and a few other rules i just havent seen any evidence of them bein at work
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« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2009, 03:05:26 AM »

Check with olly but DO does follow warhammer rules but the 4th edition rules (giant killer added later I believe).  In the fourth edition all polearms do is grant +1 strength (why they don't just give the unit +1 strength i don't know).

All magic sword ignore armour?  Thats a guess, it describes it in some of the sword text but not all.

TBH it's worth leaving armour alone you could easily unbalance the game, and there's not much to be gained by messing around with it.

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olly
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« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2009, 08:21:20 PM »

Excellent Topic about Research on Armour etc, good to see that you can demonstrate Armour being the same Cost per Unit.

Smiley

Please also read these relevant Posts in Darkmancer's Necrominicon Research

http://forum.dark-omen.org/tools/necrominicon-t466.0.html


Halberds -Polearm

The halberd is a heavy bladed weapon mounted on a sturdy shaft. The steel blade had a point like a spear as well as a heavy cutting edge like an axe. It is held in both hands and used to chop as well as thrust, so it is a very adaptable and extremley effective weapon for infantry.

1) Troops equipped with a halberd require both arms to wield it and cannot use shields in hand-to-hand fighting. If they carry shileds it is assumed they are slung onto their backs or placed on the ground before fighting begins.

2) Halberds are heavy weapons and a mighty swing can cause considerable damage. Halberds therefore confer a +1 strength bonus on all hits. A man with a strength of 3 therefore hits with a strength of 4 if fighting with a halberd. The strength of a hit affects the armour save of the target, so this may be reduced as well. In the case of a human with a strength if 3 a halberd hit has a strength of 4 and -1 to save for instance.


ps. I don't think Cavarly do suffer more damage against Pole-Arm, as Paper, Scissors, Stone Gameplay, is the alternative method to Warhammer Dark Omen and is more for games like Total War Series- Pike V Cavarly. However SOTHR does have Mounted Lance Bonus that could be a possible Unknown in Dark Omen- lets hope, as doubtfull".


-4th Edition
Warhammer Rule Book 1992

http://forum.dark-omen.org/tavern/warhammer-table-top-rule-books-on-ebay-t367.0.html



and for Armour Research in Shadow of The Horned Rat of How it Relates to Actual Table Top Rules

http://forum.dark-omen.org/singleplayer/sothr-game-mechanics-stats-t273.0.html

Dark Omen Manual -

"You should note that the cost of troops for your regiments will increase each time you buy armour for the regiment and finalise the purchase (by exiting the Troop Roster). Therfore, whenever possible you should always buy troops either before or at the same time as, buying armour".



Smiley

« Last Edit: November 15, 2009, 09:28:53 PM by olly » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2009, 08:43:27 PM »

Nice find, if you have time, could you add a section to the Wiki with this stuff? Would be very cool!
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« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2009, 08:46:12 PM »

I was under the impression that "Shields" was not just shields but also body armor, Platemail & chainmail and such
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« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2009, 09:04:42 PM »

I assume that he means Armour (not purchasable Magic Shield Items) and more about increasing their amount of Armour "Shield" Icons in the Troop Roster.

Smiley

"In the tabletop WARHAMMER BATTLE game each armour type has a name such as shield, chain plus shield etc. The reason we have Armour Ratings as opposed to written descriptions is simply for ease of comparison. After all, there are many different combinations of armour which would produce the same result. For example, a mounted regiment with a shield would have approximately the same protection as a foot regiment with heavy armour, making an Armour Rating of 2. In WARHAMMER BATTLE, any wounds on such an individual would be ignored on a roll of five or more on a six sided die (known as an armour save of 5+)".

http://forum.dark-omen.org/singleplayer/sothr-game-mechanics-stats-t273.0.html
« Last Edit: November 15, 2009, 09:24:34 PM by olly » Logged

and back in Nuln, the ageing Graf Berhardt smiled his secret smile of pride whenever he heard the latest tales of his eldest son's ever growing chain of glorious victories -(sothr manual)
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« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2009, 06:50:02 AM »

@ olly

u say:ps. I don't think Cavarly do suffer more damage against Pole-Arm, as Paper, Scissors, Stone Gameplay, is the alternative method to Warhammer Dark Omen and is more for games like Total War Series- Pike V Cavarly. However SOTHR does have Mounted Lance Bonus that could be a possible Unknown in Dark Omen- lets hope, as doubtfull".


u say this is more for games like total war,but the new warhammer tabletop rules do have this system.and i think it is an amazing improvement.its one thing i quickly noticed when comming from mark of chaosd back to dark omen,how uch i missed a giantslayer unit.
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olly
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« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2009, 04:08:26 PM »

So all we need now is a Warhammer Table Top game that utilises the latest Rules then...to have Cavarly v Pike

Since Dark Omen only uses 4th Edition 1992 Table Top Rules. Our Best bet is to wait for the Medival 2 Total War Call of Warhammer Mod (released by Christmas hopefully) that won't be Table Top but will have, good Old Cavarly v Pike etc..However, there are so many games like that, which is why we love and still play Dark Omen.

Smiley

« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 04:56:25 PM by olly » Logged

and back in Nuln, the ageing Graf Berhardt smiled his secret smile of pride whenever he heard the latest tales of his eldest son's ever growing chain of glorious victories -(sothr manual)
Jeronimo
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« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2010, 07:31:31 PM »

I have created a system for resolving this problem, instead of cracking shields.

An additional level comes with 1 extra Shield + 1 extra Item Slot (as usual)

The resolution was so simple... ok Fair Omen, lets go!
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« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2010, 04:43:58 AM »

Re: Armour:
In the single player Black Grail Knights have armour 14.

Now this rules out d6 rolling as to hit them you'd have to get a 6,6, then a 4+ to hit them.  The odds of that happening are 1 in over a 100.  So we can discount that.

The other 2 systems i can think of are either you always have a chance of hitting though by rlling a 1, (ie you've a 1 in 14 chance of hitting though), or

In my copy of 3rd edition rules it the max armour score you can get is 5, so it my simply be a 1/6 chance to hit.

Unfortunatly we cant really test this (unless you have far too much time on your hands Smiley  )

However has anybody ever tested strength v toughness.  There may be a level when units simply don't have enough strength to kill a creature (a strength 3 unit can't hurt a t7 unit in 3rd edition).  Eaily test-able, and we can get alot of information about various things if this is the case in DO (charges, strength button, pottion of strength, even finding the strength table in engrel).
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« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2010, 11:20:47 PM »

w/s test

* army321.arm (1.84 KB - downloaded 243 times.)
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