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Tournament January 2010

[Jeronimo]

Is a pity that last battle was already decided before playing it...

I rememeber Darkamncer Greenskin army had 3 big'un 3 immurtalz, 3 arrer boyz, 1 shaman.

Nice army indeed, but in disadvante against any artillery (specially lobber/mortar). Even more in a large map.

What map did u fight, I bet was Troll Land.





I liked last Wku battle vs Ghabry. Fanatics killed half BGK.

Also TELEDEATH, its very annoying hehe.

[Ghabry]

I uploaded the videos

Don't forget to watch wkurwiony vs. Ghabry at the same time using both "cameras"

[Darkmancer]

Yep i used that same army against WHF, funnily enough I altered the roster of my army purely because of that match with you and it was the new rooster I'd meant to fight against WHF with but i couldn't rerember which army was which and I picked the wrong one , admittedly i think I would have still lost with the new rooster but it would have been a better match.

I wish i'd recorded that match against you (Jeronimo), it wasn't brilliant fun to play but the odds on winner must have switched what 4 / 5 times? & In the end I had 5 orcs left, i won that match by the skin of my teeth, it would have made a brilliant video.

The final was fought on the tutorial map which is fairly perfect for arty, enough trees to block troops but not enough to provide cover.  Also starting in the corner allowed whf to jam his troops into the corner making them impossible to get too.  I'll upload the video next week when I get somemore data allowence, although my mood went from excited, to whats the point before I clicked fight so its more a lesson how not too play

I should have known really, in the semi finals the game i lost against whf was when he did the same to me with tons of empire xbow & archers.  I did think of fighting an empire battle with 2 cannon, 3 elven archers, 2 xbow, and 3 elven warriors + smattering of magic items, but I didn't want to descend into cheese.

[Darkmancer]

Re Balance

Thanks again WKirony, the mod worked really well and produced many fun games, which I think everyone was happy with.
I’d say the mods fairly balanced good at the moment.  The only real problem i’d say was mages, the main reason they’re so powerful in the main game was due to hit & run tactics, esp with the vampire.  The current balance has discouraged that, but in turn shown mages to be surprisingly weak.  Everyone using a sup’d up mage seemed to be at a major disadvantage and was rapidly overwhelmed (in my experience) due to the large cost.  
Arty’s seem a bit powerful but I think that’s mainly down to mages being weak.  Maybe a 4/2 rule to stop games becoming ballistic matches. (upto 4 missile units, upto 2 of which being siege engines).


Empire:
Fine, although perhaps a small increase too xbow and elven archers.  The only real out of whack thing i came up against was elven warriors – perhaps reduce them to 12 units like archers?
The Treeman was used! –yay, although I still think he’s a bit too expensive.

Greenskins:
Generally fine, although I’ve heard people saying black orcs were too powerful.  Personally given they cost 930gp i think they’re about right given that they’re basically bigguns with out psy, and compared with flags & BGK’s...

Wargh magic still as piss poor as ever but you can’t do anything about that (although maybe make the war banner cheaper to make up for it?)

The only really problems are the cheaper stuff that are basically wastes of army slots.  Goblins and the bolt thrower, could do with being made cheaper (lets face it the bolt thrower is worth around 10gp    ), fanatics are a difficult thing too price as they’re as likely to plow though the enemies forces as you own.  I still think scorps & spids are are little expensive.

Undead
Probably the weakest side in my opinion, basic troops are fine.  I think BGK could be made a lil more expensive, horsemen cheaper.

Wraiths seem bugged, while they don’t lose troops they still seem to take psyc tests.  I broke a set with BGK who had no magic items.  They broke well after my knights had charged (ie during combat resolution).  Personally I think they’re a specialist unit and shouldn’t be used as you main troops (like you would say black orcs), but used as something to pick off enemy squads, maybe increase their movement speed for more manoeuvrability?

Wrights are awful, they have practically the same combat stats as basic orc’s, i’ve seen people use squads with the banner of defiance, great, except for that you just a bit short off a set of BGK, or 27+16archer skeles & a magic sword.  Instead of just making them cheaper how about giving them the trolls magic resist + the raise the dead spell?

Finally skele catapults.  I didn’t come across any of these (unsurprisingly), as an alternative how about removing the instant panic test on hit, reducing the crew to 3 (for slow ROF), then making them ethereal like wraiths?  They’ll be even more rubbish than before but will prevent people sitting on their ass vs undead and be tough to destroy.

[Jeronimo]

My opinion about GOOD battles: there are 2 kinds.

Fun battle: is short and intense. Practically all the regiments are being used at the same moment, no time for boosting, you may forget to activate an Item. Small maps.

Interesting battle: is longer and odds on winner change every minute. Unexpected events occurs. Enough time to change plans (and consider enviroment). Big maps.

Darkmancer we had an Interesting battle there in Troll Land.
Instead of rushing (like u were going to do), you moved to the hill, making my 2 Pistoliers almost useless from surface. There were "unexpected events" like Miska Hawks working or missing and my Ptolos Shield failing (expected ).

[Wkurwiony]

Dark Omen January 2010 Tournament vs Ghabry 2 part 1	DQ | by Aeva

Dark Omen January 2010 Tournament vs Ghabry 2 part 2	DQ | by Aeva

missing fight with ghabry

and couple of things:

i dont think black orcs are bad balanced or overpowered in any way, sure they are often picked by GS army as they are natural unbreakable units, but check how much they killed after battles, not that impressive at all ;] they are usefull for the reason that player may utilize his tactic better and not for their sheer power of killing enemies

wraiths do take panic check when they fight, i noticed (might be wrong thou) that if they fight against massive regiment 27/27 it works more on their dissadvantage, so yeah 4/4 wraith will often run away, hell i even got situation where whfreak wraiths charged my wraiths straight ahead, and after couple of rounds my wraiths run away ;] so they are also not that overpowered as some might think

@darkmancer: i dont plan on changing original stats in anyway ;] so i guess only reg size and gc, and about wargh magic ;] well it may suck but they got this one spell that can change tide of battle in a split seconds ;]
and yes about mages, as we talked on irc after tourney

well next tourney with this ruleset is far far away ;] so i will have lots of time to tinker with it
hope everybody had great time as i did

[alavet]

- remove troll's land from the tourney map pool. this map is really imbalanced due of starting location of second player.
- decrease mages cost a little
- maybe add grail knights to humans? instead of 3 standard kngits, repalce it with grail ones (and boost stats a little)
- rebalance liche (add other spell) current spell is total rubbish, not usable at all
- need to boost some stats of UDs maybe. i found hard playing vs black orcs  with ud, cause main UD power (fear) doesnt worked. maybe change stats of skeletons a little (bootst up WS?)
- is it possible to add accuracy to UD catapuilt? if so, boost it. if not, decrease in price a little.
- is it possible to add damage for goblins shot machnie? if not, change price drastically.

[Jim]

Congratulations, warhammerfreak!

What a tournament, what a ruleset, what games!
I loved the videos!
It's awesome, guys.
Looks like the ruleset is amazing, and really balanced. The finals of the most of the games are bearely predicted up to the very last minute. What an intrigue.
Black Orcs rock! Finally greenskins have their fair elite unit. They are hell of a warriors now! Yeah, I'm so glad, being a goblin
It's such a pity I couldn't participate. But next month I'll do it I swear to Gork

[lordbraprus]

all ok with  wkurwiony but..
4 wraiths  that when flee are destroyed?
6 coward and slow mummies.
so few skeletons , in archery infantery and cavalery who  die faster than goblins cause of the skeleton flag.

inmortal? units that does not even exist in warhammer world, goblins troll spiders scorpion.. why buy them having the inortals, ahh, dont forget the  boars boys, with the same price , what do you buy a  boar or a inmortal (retoric question)
very cheap lobbers and generaly warmachines.

hemlglart archers and pistoliers?? compared to elven archers everyone would prefer to buy   12 archers rather than 9 pistoliers or the human archers.

well. like almost all was imba,  it was in some way balanced i had battles that i dont believe they happened, olly lost against my like if he played this game for first time, i dunno what happened with olly 0/6, darkmancer, well that battles was so laggy that i thought i was going to lose but not.. i won the 2, and i won alavet orc armie with my human one then i lose 1 battle against him (ud vs ud).

and having 27/27 regiments with almost the same price that the cavalery 3/3 , you dont have to choice, it is almost obligation to buy the 27/27 regiment.

i have fun  because like i told i was so imba with all races that was something like bala...

I did have a lot of luck with some lobber shots and my army was stronger then yours in this map vs your army.

yes very stronger , in the corner and with 2 lobbers, you are so fuc king brave player, do you play like that in the table top game?? cowardfreak , how you dare to play in that way in a imbalanced army, i even did not buy any mage with undead and human. and no artillery, cause they were cheap . i have a little respect to others players, well here you just drive ,me crazy reading your posts

[lordbraprus]

sorry my bad word "*****"

i dont congraturate warhammer freak, but i admit that wkurwiony had the balls to try to make a balanced mod. i hope some one here had learned something, so can think insome balances  thinking inb the units capablity and usage. and stats. but no all have the abilitie to use w32 edit too see them well thats all

[Jim]

Wait a sec... Immortals have the same characteristics as Black Orcs in «Shadow of the Horned Rat», don't they?

[Wkurwiony]

@jim black orcs got same stats like bigguns with leadership at 8, and got armor 2 instead of 1, dont know why some ppl think they are overpowered ;] overpowered units are those that kill a lot, black orcs dont but they hold they ground pretty good

@lordbraprus said, well i must say he dont know game mechanics too much o_O 3/3 cavalry can rout 27/27 regiment and their cost is about half what 27/27 cost, second thing large regiments are easy target for ranged units, and tend to run away more than smaller units

about wraiths well they run of course like 5/5 and 6/6 and 7/7 etc its game mechanics nothing i can do about or you neither, or maybe you want to change stats and psychology of troops ? slow mummies ? blame games workshop... and they are far from coward unless you play good with them (i made mistake in my game and lost them)

UD army is all about their special regiments and supporting ones, dont think skeletons are meant to kill lots of troops but rather cover flanks

immortalz are legit regiment, they are black orcs and they are bodyguards of grimgor ironhide...
who would pick boar boyz over them ? player that would like to kill archers or other range unit regiments (hence not you)

and comparing 9/9 pistolers and 12/12 elf archers i would pick pistolers, but both of them got diffrent roles on battlefield

ok gonna stop here ;p

P.S. and lordbraprus maybe dont insult whfreak just because you lost oO guess your army wasnt so imba after all

[Darkmancer]

Yerr i can understand not wanting to mess around with the stats, and I tried not to suggest stat changes it's just the undead are a bit of an odd side really, so i though you might go for changes that kept the weakness's but made the units worthwhile (i still think wrights with raise the dead spell would make a funky unit ).

@ lordbrapus, seriously grow up.  I didn't like WHF tactics anymore than you, but he played within the rules, and there's no need to insult him in anyway. 

[Jim]

@jim black orcs got same stats like bigguns with leadership at 8, and got armor 2 instead of 1, dont know why some ppl think they are overpowered ;] overpowered units are those that kill a lot, black orcs dont but they hold they ground pretty good

But I've never seen them run in any games. They fight like skeletons. However bigguns run, and quite often.
Or is this because of the leadership 8?

[Jim]

Raditz, Jim: Give me a reason why you havn't took part in the tournament! You were confirmed!

Sorry, Ghabry, I've just read this comment of yours.
Well... There has been a huge missunderstanding I guess.
I just said (in totally different thread) that I would like to take part in the tourney. And asked about patching the game for the new ruleset.
I don't know how come you decided to add me. And absolutely don't understand where my mystical "confirmation" came from.
So it was a big mistake. I didn't want to spoil anything.