Warhammer Dark Omen Forum

Ok so after tests that i've made playing against Jeronimo, mod now looks pretty balanced. I've resigned from point system for items and now its all about how much gold you have. There is only one rule when building your army (up to 3 same units). What i wanted to achive in this mod, is that every and each unit in DO should have his own place on the battlefield. That the game should be about using proper counters at right time, executing your tactics, destroying plans of your enemy.

What is new in this mod, compared to default game ?

1. Basic infantries in various sizes : you got small normal and large unit sizes
2. Small cavaleries : each race got a 3/3 cav type, very usefull in scouting, pursuing enemy, chasing mages, attacking unprotected artilleries
3. Black Orcs (4 4 3 4 4 1 3 1 8 armor 2/3) for greenskins : unbreakable unit that balances horn and bgk, of course very usefull units in killing rate similiar to flagellants,
4. Bone Giant (6 3 0 6 5 6 1 4 8 armor 4/4) : he will never rout and will pour terror into hearts of his foes, althou hes killing rate isnt great ;]
5. Mobile Artillery : all artillery pieces will have movement 1, thaks to this we will be able to play on large maps, whitout worrying who should rush if both players got artilleries
6. Every regiment have been adjusted (gold price or regiment size) to balance race against two other races
7. Added missing abilities of regiments : causing fear to ogres, immunity to fear to zombies etc
8. Changed item prices

Soon ill upload some videos from games with Jeronimo

Hope you all will enjoy it as much as i am, and if you want to test it with others, join DarkOmenNewBalance//darkomen you will find link to current version in the welcome message

Also list of unit sizes/prices you can find in attached file here, its an xls file so open it with MS Excel

Cheers

Dark Omen vs Jeronimo NewBalance (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dC7s-OGYDr0#normal)

ok one movie for now to get you all interested (lets hope)  ;] enjoy

Interesting Logo. At first look I thought in Airlines  :)

Video: Damn fanatics!

it was not gg.

Too bad my logo was copied by some shoes company ... but is cool right ? ;]

artillery that can move was needed in this game.

ARTILLERY with MOV 1

I agree with this change (even if isn't in Warhammer World).

But... Why I like it? Do you really want to listen me?  hehehe...

1) Maps with large distances make artillery part of a defensive strategy, which only can be defeated with fast rush or hit & run tactic (ouch). With this of MOV 1, you can traslade your artillery forward, to make it mobile-defense and not stuck in your base. Becoming the 3rd option to deal with enemy's High Defense.

2) You can save artillery crew moving them away from those tipic spells like soul drain or firestorm without having to cast on them dispel magics as emergency (many times i have those dispels in my wizard, and suddenly I found myself casting on artillery for saving them... sometimes I dont reach them and artillery dies--- Waste of magic points).

3) Move artillery when is being hit by proyectils or inminent long range magic attack (cold wind, arnizipal's black horror). Also is important to be constantly hidden from enemy sight, what you can do now.

4) Take Items from the battlefield (or block enemy racial item standing over it---Good move). Also make rear charges in order to desmoralize sometimes work.

5) My favourite advantage: You can reach strategic positions that are away from deployment zone, like a hill in the middel of map, or a cliff like in Troll Land (at flanks).

Do you still want a 6th reason?  ;)

Here's a vid showing mobile artillery in action, its not the best example of what it gives, but you can see my enemy moving his artillery behind a hill, trying to get out of the range of my lobbers and attack troops that are crossing the river

Dark Omen vs Kura NewBalance (Mobile artillery) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc9RtPLQGCU#normal)

Two things
1. there is a little bug, in that version i forgot to replace mortar to cannon, so he got 3 mortars instead of 3 cannons.
2. for now those mobile artilleries got movement 2, thats because with movement 1 it takes them very long (about 10 seconds) to be ready to fire when target is from their side or rear. So i think M2 is best solution as they are still the slowest unit avaible in multiplayer

Enjoy

There seems to be some really weird price increases for units that don't really deserve it.

Plus bone giant - 1245 for a generally useless unit?

please give examples of unit prices that you think cost too much, as for now your opinion dont give me any clue what regiments are you talking about

as for bone giant he is not useless, and with more games i play with him or see what he is able to, the more i can say how much he should cost

As he has 0 strength all I can think the bone giant is for is as a "boo" unit to try and rout other units.  the only time he will achieve this is during charges - he not going to win any combat rounds is he? He could do with a single but very powerful attack, even then i'd be hesitent to spend that sort of money on a single unit squad with little offensive capability.

Why would i use him and not say a vampire/skele horsemen/bgk?  All having the advantage of shock horror actually being able to kill stuff?

Over priced units:
Zombies - rubbish, slow, fighters that easily rout and die, nearly cost the same as other standard units? I know they've a slightly larger squad size, but it's rare that going to ome into play given slow speed and poor stats(including fear).
Skelehorsemen - the worse calvary in game, knights of the realm even with 3 less units is cheaper and 3x better.

Empire
Mortar - I presume you don't like this unit as you've made it ridulously over expensive.
lvl 3 ice mage?


Greenskin
lv 3 goblin mage?
scorps & spiders are basically slot fillers and you've doubled them in price?

Darkmancer hi,

dont know from what to start hm, ok lets start from Bone Giant, i think you are reffering to ballistic yes he got 0... blame warhammer as it is taken from 4th edition book and he got 6 strenght. and he is suppose to be alternative for chariots as they crash the game from what i know

ok lets go to overpriced troops

zombies - i added them immune to fear, as the description in game say, try them now you might like them

skelehorsemen - well i wouldnt call them the worse as you said earlier they got this advantage of shock horror and are able to kill stuff, and really if your saying they are worse three times than 9/9 knights of the realm i dont know if we are playing the same game ?

mortar - well hes killing rate suggest its right price, people a play with dont hesitate to buy it at that price, and now hes mobile unit

scorpion/spider - they got this thing terror, makes normal regiments run a lot, dont think 120gc/150gc is good for such attribute sorry

as for mages, every race got one mage that can reach lvl 3 and one that can reach lvl 2, and as for slot fillers you got tons of units, very small cavaleries, small infantries try them

did i answered your questions ?

Sorry i normally omit the Balistic skill with melee units.  Anyway

BoneG: 6 3 6 5 6 1 4 8 armour 4 . unbreakable
...Troll: 6 3 5 4 3 1 3 4 armour 3 , regenerates wounds, magic resistance

Is the bone giant worth over 3 trolls?

Fear ins't the main problem with zombies, panic tests for losing over 25% over the units, and losing combat rounds and disintagrating due too low leadership are.  I never saw zombies used before points systems were into-duced, the only reason they're use now is due to they're low point usage.  at 240 gp, you get 2x zombie for 1x standard so you can afford to use them as cannon fodder, although slow movement is a problem.  Unless you've made them unbreakable they are not worth 400gp ish price.

Yes scorps/spids cause terror but are easily riped to pieces, even low quality units quite often don't break and will quickly dispatch them.  They certainly arn't overpowered in general games I don't think they warrent a 2x price increase.  Greenskins are supposed to be a horde playstyle, that requires cheap units to bulk out your main force, thats what the spids,scorps, gobs, and bolt throwers are for, but they need to be cheap for it too work :)

Not havig a lvl 3 vampire is understandable.  But no lvl 3 ice mage is just rotten to those who like ice spells (frankly firemage is used to often), and the orcs loose a nice alternative in a weaker but cheap lvl 3 mage, again it seems a pointless loss.

I still think motar is to high a price when cheap arty is an empire advantage, plus orc lobber is cheaper.

Re Skele Horse

I once engaged a merc calvary squad with a unit of skel hrose holding a heart of woe, they lost and exploded, i then charged another skele horsemen into the merc calv, they lost too :(

Rerember normal calvary have w/s 4 and s4.  Skele have w/s2 and s3 plus take aditional loses when they lose a round of combat, and with those stats they lose often even vs standard units.  The fear is useful, but normal calvary causes plenty of rout tests anyway with strong stats, and high probobility of flank charges.

could you please compose some document with list of units and prices for them (with special markups whats diffirience agaisnt standard units (i.e. terror, not die when fleeing, removed unit, avaliable level3) and so on?

@alavet there is attached file in first post with xls file documenting all changes done, and what default regiments cost. but keep it mind it is a little out of date, some minor changes have been done, ill upload new file after ill add last unit i have in plans ;]

@darkmancer about bone giant, he also have Two-handed weapon, so that adds to his strenght with total of 8, and yeah i think he is worth 3 trolls. The diffrence with unit that can run away and one that wont is very big i think. As for his price i started with 1450 and went down with it, he is now at about 930 and i think it will be a final price.

- zombies, from what i noticed they fare pretty well in battle right now, didnt noticed them routing and dying before engaging in melee, and what slow movement you have in mind ? they are M4 so normal infantry speed

- scorp/spider well they are easily ripped if you send them alone, but they have other uses M5 with terror for 120 is too low in my opinion, yours might be diffrent and its ok, but this mod this price suits them better

- if mortar would cost 450 all i can think of is that every empire army would have 3 of those, and with 3 of those they would tear every and each important regiment in enemy army

I think darkmancer its just a diffrent approach to balance with you and me, i want to balance game by changing prices/sizes and you by forcing limits to regiments, guess thats why your so negative :) but you played with it at least once ? or you saying all those things based solely on numbers ?

P.S. and about story with skeleton horsemen ;] well i think we all had some funny stories, like mine that goblins with BoD killed BGK 11/12 ;] or that fresh unit of bigguns with BoD lost to greatswords and they didnt lost a single head etc

in those cases i say "dice happens" ;)

hey wkyurny ,can you make troll 3 spiders 3 and scorp 3 o6 ?

and what do you think about increazing +25% the bone giant size, you can do that with gimp :O is that it is a giant and should be taller,, and biguns +15% and ogres +25 , in the descriptions, they all are bigger and taller than human and sprites are only wihter.

it just to make a better good looking... if wanna know how to doit, ask me.. iam on hamachi now

This has nothing to do with balancing styles, its to do with opinions on unit strengths and side playstyles.

Best solution is to put my money where my mouth is hence...

i will create a side of 10 knights of the realm (9 units each).  You can create a side with 10 skele horsemen (12 units each).  No items.



Despite my side costing less, and having a quarter less units I bet I will rip you side to pieces.

If I win you have to use 3x units of zombies in the next tornament and your not allowed to use any ghouls, skele warriors.
If you win I'll accept whatever penalty you want.

Accept?

yes of course darkmancer, those tests are really great!

and after that we will test mortar vs dwarfs, ill make a side of 10 mortarts and youll make 10 dwarves, and altough mortar is cheaper ill bet he will tear your army apart

this is what those tests are good for... they represent one situation that might happen on battlefield, you negate the rest
btw didnt see you raging about point system, in 5k/15 skel horsemen cost 3 points just like knights of the realm and i dont see you saying one thing about it

you were wrong about many things from yours post 1 in here.. raging about bone giant strenght while you didnt even bothered to check it etc. in my opinion you are making decisions about things too fast

as for yours penalty i think i got it ! you will take a cold shower

@lordbraprus

dont want to make spidres scorp or troll 3/3, not to mention darkmancer would kill me if i did :) as for sprites i know how to do that but i dont see a point in doing so

Motars and dwarfs are both vastly different units made for entirely different things.

Horsemen and knight are both calvary units, and are basically speak intended for the same job.  They are comparable units and thus is a fairly valid test.  I'm saying the fear, unbreakability, and +3 units, is not worth the loss of strenght, w/s, iniative and leadership, along with the aditional loses the horsemen recieve.  A straight 10v10 match would demonstrate that quite clearly.

Re bone giant, i admited i was wrong but i still thought he was to expensive.  You obviously agreed as he lost 25% of his cost and gained a double handed sword.

I didn't have anything to do with 5k/15 balance which is a completely different system anyway why you brought that up I don't know.

This isn't a personal attack it's just an oppinion on the pro's/cons on each unit, unexpected things can and do happen with DO but horsemen getting trounced is fairly common in my experiance.

And zombies, they are basically the same price as ghouls and warriors, would you ever pick zombies?  I doubt may people will.

lets get clear two things:

1. I didnt add bone giant two handed weapon or lowered his price because of you, he had two handed weapon from start and you would noticed that if you would download mod from hamachi channel

2. I didnt said this version is complete, it will be before tournament if it wins or loose the voting, im guessing it will loose as lordbraprus is crazy about this thing ;] but anyways its my way of balacing regiments, start from too much and lower it, and as he started as a new unit i didnt have the base to compare him with anything. But after lots of games lately its obvious he needed to be lowered, as so this happened... based on experience from game and not only on numbers

cheers

True Wku. My brother has been fuking crazy these days.
Warning! Dont touch him. Out of control :P

@Darkmancer: !!!

1) never said you did, I just said you agreed with me that it was too expensive, it's a game no need to get pissy.

2) again I never said it was, if I thought it was complete it be pointless talking about changing the unit balances.  I'm basing my opinions on the numbers you post, and past experiances of unit performance which should be valid enough unless you start with random stat & psy adjustments. 

You method of balancing is perfectly valid, the problem comes when say the greenskins are losing lots of games.  Is it because goblins are too expensive?, big uns too weak or expensive? spells? archers?  It's hard to monitor a single units performance in a game with so many completely different unit types and random outcomes as DO.  A bit of comparison between similar unit types doesn't go amiss.

If you want to ignore my opinions thats fine but you asked for them.  The challange was for a bit of messing around there's no need to get the hump.

ok great that we have this cleared out :]

As for your opinions, they wont be ignored like anybody elses its just I didnt like the way you wrote it earlier.
After I played vs Jeronimo he had couple of ideas and some of them are now implemented.
As for yours suggestion, you pointed out this thing about lvl2/lvl3 mages, well yes i change it so that both mages are lvl 3, for now at least, and be sure zombies price will go down as i didnt knew how they will fare with that immunity to fear, one thing is sure they can take lots of ranged damage and wont run away(at least from what i saw) ;)


and a thing that i cant add to first post :

9. Vampire changed into Liche (4 3 3 3 3 3 2 1 9): he will survive a bit longer than necromancer wounds 3, and got a permanent spell "Soul Drain" (in v1.4)

in attachment you got latest file, current version is 1.4

so say what you think, and if someone wants to play im on the channel ;)

I played around 10 games with Wkurwiony over the last 2 days and I love this mod. It still needs some tweaking but i love the bone giant idea.

here are screens of new units in armybook,
i just cant change Da Immortulz banner in army book, as they share it with Troll and i dont know how to add new one ;/ but in game they got their own banner ;]

(http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/1721/blackorc.jpg) (http://img121.imageshack.us/i/blackorc.jpg/)
Da Immortulz (black orcs)

(http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/9656/bonegiant.jpg) (http://img716.imageshack.us/i/bonegiant.jpg/)
Bone Giant

(http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/6928/liche.jpg) (http://img641.imageshack.us/i/liche.jpg/)
Liche

oh god man. this looks awesomly. where you got such great pictures?

they are from warhammer armybooks, i repainted them as they were black and white ;]

Hey, guys,

Where can I read about how to patch the DO to apply this new ruleset?
I really hope I can still join January tournament.
Just need to handle all this.

join channel in my signature and you will have download link in welcome message

could yo uplease put latets file with description there? is Liche still there?

oh i didnt noticed there was new post on this topic ;]

anyway yeah alavet he is still there, i reworked mages a bit, now they all have permanent spells and cant use items so no wand of jet, book of ashur and staff of osiris.

also there is new units spider riders that is the fastest unit in game now, its in orcs army

but what is most important is the rule of Elite units, that put to an end spam armies, and makes armybuilts more varied

oh and of course i forgot to upload file with changes

anyway in this file you got described what spells each mage got, i would like to hear your suggestions

you are a bad bad bad person and will sufer in hell.

i dont belive in religions so no hell for me sorry ;/

Stop fighting mates.

The best way: Opening Middle month Tournaments. Sign up from 1st to 10, 11-13 confirm, 14 Play!

Then from 15 to 25 Signing up for End month T.

I know what I'm saying, I can predict worse things in future. Rulesets have increased and will continue...

Remember we any Member can open Tournament Threads (as Wkurwiony did, but only I showed up that day).
What I ask is a General compromise  and make many people dreams true--> accompany and play their Mod projects, simply that.

Jeronimo has spoken. Thanks for reading 8)

nah im far from fighting Jeronimo hehehe its all fun and games ;] one cant win with endless spam of Ramiro hehe, and i dont have enough energy to keep talking about this mod

i made that avatar earlier today and thought i might just do another hehe

ohh wku, i didnt meant to make our mesages look like a fight, i was joking about hell, iam not religous neither. i said that because you made a gay photo of me :( , i love you wku, but in the mods world, i have to be strong hehehhehe, if i would like your mod, i would vote it, but i dont like so neverrr , i made my own mod :P. after taht, i am sure i can marrie you in real life.

you cant marry wk, you already promised me :(:(:(

uops, you catch me