Warhammer Dark Omen Forum

[Jeronimo] HERE is Fair Omen. Read installation and Doc File. Dont be Lazytown.

INSTALLATION

First of all, extract files where Dark Omen is installed.
For not losing Original DO values, my ZIP has brings a carpet named “DO_Backup”.

Overwrite carpet "2parm" from GameData with the new "2parm" from my Mod: This carpet has all the Regiments changes.
To patch EngRel, you must use program LIPS (this was needed to compress Engrel archive for being too heavy). My EngRel archive brings the new Items costs.
1) Run Lunar IPS program, press "Apply IPS Patch" (a window opens), click on the Heart Icon called EngRel from my Mod.
2) A new window opens. SELECT FILE TO PATCH, change type from "Most Common ROM Files" to "All Files (*.*)" and click on the EngRel archive of Dark Omen (with this you are changing the Old EngRel for the New). After patching, a message will appear saying that you have made the operation successfully.
Returning to original game is the same procedure (using obviously the Backup archives)

@Community: I hope to see you in Tournament. I will organize and play with you.  :-*

one comment:
once you created right engrel.exe (with FO changes) you might save it as a copy (like named FOengrel.exe) and then use it as a fast switcher between versions. Please make a backup for your original engrel.exe if you dont have such, cause changing from FO to original DO is little more complicated.
as far as i can see only item prices corrected in new engrel.exe


i wish to start there a balance thread.
first of all, i have to say that its not much balanced, and the most pitty that i think it will be impossible to balance it right in the way Jeronimo dreams about. and thats why:

if you ever played table Warhammer40k, you possibly know that all regiment have some kind of "type" like, "base regiment", "elite", or "special units" and in standard game you're limited in each type of units to use. sure, it differs from type of the game you play, but more than less, you're limited in troops. Good example might be found in Mika 9k ruleset 9where he divided armies for "core", "elite" and "unique" troops. I dont quite sure if type of units imoplemented at fantasy warhammer, but i feel that it should be the same as at wh40k.

how it all affects DO: with current ruleset and prices i was able to create some pretty "standard" combo of army:
x1 grail lvl2 with ptoloss & banner of antimagic
x1 vamprie lvl4 with osiris +ashur +wand
x2 mummeis (one with banner)
x5 ghouls as a meat.

its not some kind of really "imba" army but its very hard to be countered with any of our standard 9/30 army ruleset.
for instance, in our 9/30 ruleset i was only able to buy lvl2 vampire + osiris + wand and x2 mummies + other stuff and thats was enough to win tourney.

and its even not too much imbalanced build. what if i choose to have 4 graisl (or how many of them i will be able to buy?)+antimagic items. it can be coutnered ONLY with soem crazy special build (i can't imagine one, but suppose it's soemthing about mass flagellants + perhars mortair or mass mummies).

or imagine mummies invasion (like u faced in the last mission but when they attack from all sides at the same time).

and some other build which for sure can be implemented and might be foudn as imba.

also i'm currently talking about 9k armies, but if we look to the lower ones, like 3/5/7k, situation also not much good, until lwe implement some "points" or just simple "rules" for it.
the problem is that in any army mage will be a "must" even for 3k amry cause his power is just amazing comparing to any other standard regiment (and decreasing with icnreasing of gold limits). in that case only possible solution is limit armies to 2lvl for 5k army and etc.

also prices for some regiments/items should be corrected (like osiris, etc)

[Jeronimo] About Regiments I did: Mummies +120, Flagellants: +120, BGK: +60.

Items... Osiris at 480 is preety now from my point of view (only wizz can use it, if wizz dies, i can take your item with mine, anyway Banner of Wrath is much better and cost 1200gc, x2.5 Osiris Cost)

The UD army about is the one that faced me. (remember first battle), yes I know is tough, but it can be handled. In that battle my army wasnt "the best to stand them" and I also commanded badly, (send archers forward instead of shooting from beggining you know it).

I see mummy invasion so bad... no chances if only 1 has banner and also they cost 1080gc in basic.. not really a good decision. I did FO for not using Rules if possible. Give it a chance.

Lordbraprus, i really think your FO system is very easy to create army (w/o point system).
And if there any mistakes, i think you can fix it. (but better before tournament)

I feel nothing bad about test for 9k tourney (especially cause i LOVE 3lvl mages) but please give us some idea how is possible to handle 4 or even 6 grails?? i just dont have ANY idea how to deal with 6. 4, maybe 5 of them maybe doable on very good map + mage with paralyze/firewall + flagellants + mortairrrrr. but 6...
and HOW  are you going to counter even 4 grails with greenskins?

to handle this case i see nothign wrong in modifing greenskisn armies in stats or in "heads" (since you already changed "heads for human regiments".
solution might be found in icnreasing swarms of scroprions/spider/trolls and adding stats for orcs but in "standard" modifications greenskins is jsut trash at 9k FO

i have to additionally say that i pretty much like your system in regiment heads changes (like, differing human cavalry and swordmen).

hi , iam not jeronimo, iam lordbraprus.. avalet if you are a good player, you can deal with 5 grials(maximum cause of the goldcost 1560).. there are a lot of ways to defeat them, with orcs you will be able to buy maximum big uns and orc shaman lvl 3, with the mork fist, the boosting and the foot. mortar , make a combo with magic items, horn of urgok.
 with humans withpistoliers cannon mortar fire mage lvl 3, or even ice mage lvl 3, that with one tornado can kill 3 grial, flagelants elf spear man, you can buy 2 treeman and use in combination with the elfs spears, so please , before reply, use your brain. thanks

and i f you make a lot of flagelants, i just buy 4 crossbow, 2 canon 1 mortar, cavalery and maybe spears elfs (and mage)

guess i am a bad player...see your armies with my 5 grails soon!

haha, maybe you are not a bad player, just that you are like a coward crying baby calling for mamma to drink milk (and food)  :D     :D

Maybe its clever to make osiris more expensive?
Try to explain:
its cause extra damage (more than wrath banner) and its totally accurate!
Also it can be used against mages & penetrate magic armor as well.
Also, it fires throw all units in range, so sometimes it can kill artillery crew (at least 1-2) +some infantry and even other troops!
Can you make aimed shot with baner? No!
600-700 at least i think.

[Jeronimo] "You are wraith, you are wraith" True.. Osiris is cool, if wiz is well played it can be devasting. Also I dont like the future im seeing about BGK.. although at 1560 u cant have 2 with 3k, you can still have 3 at 5k, which is equal of disadvantage... so i resolved this for last time.

Version with Osiris, BGK, Mummies, Elf sylvan archers, UD wizards (a bit more expensive)

I hope for the last time.. this pleases Community, and think in FO as a real FO (wouldnt be Fair if Osiris was underpriced, you get my point :) )
The whole MOD now has 34.500gc in goldprice (items+basic reg)
Also named DO.EngRel and FO.EngRel, as Alavet suggested.

@Sipax, Alavet: Do you like it better now?

Alavet says the truth.
Black Grails is a tank, and even one regiment 1lvl can destroy half of a good 5k greenskins army.
If we want to make this all fair, we have to make them cost about 4000, for the 1lvl :) Seriously.
That is BG's adequate price.

naa... that is absurde.. your reply was not well thinked, we talked this a lot of times, wont repeat the same answers. jim if i dont remember wrong you are new, so with the time you will see the several ways of killing grails, it seems it hard for you understand that if he makes 5 lvl 1 rails you will be able to have 8 lvl big uns, and mage lvl 3 too... i wont answer more un thinked replys


braprus.

ok we tested it with sipax and it's possible to beat 4-5 grails by some special builds of humans now. unfortunately its IMPOSSIBLE to beat 4-5 grails with orcs.
the problem with orcs that they're pretty weak and coward and dotn have unbreakable units. and with all these cost reduction for humans and undeds (im not only talking about "gold" reduction, but also their "points") means that orcs now suck even more (as they were the worst race in syatnard DO in my opinion). it will be ok if it'd be possible to place more than 10 regiments, but since its impossible, orcs suffers badly. i see some kind of solution if decreasing cost for their armies even more, like at least 20% reduction for most common units like biguns, cavalry & orcs.

and dont talk shit about your big shaman and biguns - shama ncan do nothign agaisnt antimagic, and biguns flee vs grail just liek any other orc unit (on the second or third turn as max)

you can say "bah he's whinign again, and im so tired of all these bbalance issues etc etc" but maqking a good balance its not a easy job but a regular work...

[Jeronimo]

Ok. I can make BGK even more expensive after Tournament.

The actual problem is many BGK against Greenskins. You see it now at 1800gc (the same as Vampire TOP or 16/16 skeleton horsemen TOP). If you do 5 Grails you cant give them any Item and lose all magic option, since you dont have any wizard.

Lets say 4 BGK with maybe an average wiz or +some Items. If 10 regiments of greenskins (even supported by Horn of Urgok, or BOOST magic) cant deal with them. I will recognize they must be higher in cost.

What about 2400gc? Yes, like a bloody Horn of Urgok. BGK = Horn of Urgok sounds good balance. (after Tourney)

You already see Mummies at 1200gc = Banner of Wrath  :)

@Jim: Forgive my brother (he justs go berserk when reads something doesnt like).
I dont care if u are new or old member. I consider all comments. Is good to hear many opinions.

i dunno maybe grails shou,d be increased i ncost. but i sue that orcs should be lwoered. currently i can imagine how to beat lvl3 human mage + stuff with greenskins

[Jeronimo]     Alavet!

Well, about BGK i think that would solve the problem.. but mage lvl 3+osiris? I think that is MUCH easier to deal.

Killing a Wizard.. is not a task of another world. Btw Osiris is at 800gc! Wand of Jet at 480! Do you wanted to teleport and Osiris me  :)?  Its lots of gold.

Recommendations: Banner of Wrath, Morks Banner (Boar boyz), Use of Antimagic, Shields Anti-magic spell. Arrows (Orc arrer boyz are good shooters). Trolls maybe (I dont know how resistent are against Osiris).

Come on Alavet. You can resolve this without my help. You are a good player.

[Jeronimo]

Well, after long Tourney, I see Greenskins have serious problems dealing with 4 BGK. My purpose is to make them +600gc. From 1800 to 2400.

About Items, I feel they are OK.

About Ruleset, this sentence "To participate you need 3 armies, 1 of each race with the Tournament Gold Limit." I will specify that is the Max. you can have... only 1 army of each race :)
Besides clearying that TD you cant repeat map/race unless is a match to end a draw.
I will add 5th draw condition: Everyone dies, like JIM's experience with Heart of Woe.
Remake 10 maps List, add Great Forest x Tutorial (some players have problem to connect it), The Empire x Road to Bogenhafen (this is too large and defensive, typical map for Wizards with Teleport), Grissburg Town x Loren Lake - Holy Shrine (its very large, and still players confuse about the positions, deploying their Regiments towards West).

Of course, I will never share the Computer with my brother. I promise this. Not only slowed Tournament a lot, also was quite annoying to play with him staying at mi side and shouting (move there!, attack there! , look where did you targeted the Mortar! Oh no Jeronimo you are BAD! >:( , blah blah blah).

I will appreciate more opinions to change Balance Mod even more. BGK to 2400 is a good idea.

Are there any plans to write the ruleset into the wiki (well formated)?

after changing black grial price, me"lordbrpsus" think we can use the new prices and armies, and make a ruleset for tournaments, as the 15/3g or 30/9g, but different... anothersistem, i would vote, for the real arhammer rules table top game, heroes, special, basic and singular units. and make a table points that values the armies, a "unique" one,.. as the game.

[Jeronimo] Forget everything I wrote. I will do different.

BGK same price 1800-2700-3600. Description say they are the strong Bretonnian reanimated.
What im going to do is to remove Leadership Check. They will have same stats, still strong warriors, but LCheck out.

I know that skeleton flag was removed from Screaming skull catapult because made them more awful that they were.
So, removing Lcheck from Grails will also balance the game (and race). Their performance will be equal like when they face others UD (you see they dont are so great). They will still have "cause fear" but this effect is weaker than "cause terror", and even weaker than Lcheck.

The truely reason GS cant face Black Grails is because that psychology. BGrails with 2attacks have double chance of creating the PANIC TEST in Greenskins troops. Removing that, they will be able to face them (consider same BGK price).

Others things I noticed... Why GS suck so much against other races? Well one of the points is fixed (remove Lcheck).
My second fix to Fair Omen will create difference among Gs monsters heads.

You see Scorpion 90, Spider 120, Troll 300. The 3 options suck when talking of 7 or 9k. Not worthless.
Greenskins lack of fast units.. Unique mosnters or just Boar Boyz is NOT ENOUGH to face Empire shooters or Undead cavalries. So... what am I proposing for next release?

 ;D "Goblins cavalry" I call it. Considering we need less duplicated numbers I thought in Scorpions 6/6, like the 6/6 Wraiths.
Spiders 3/3, like Ogres 3/3. Doing this only 2 unique monsters left: 1 Troll, 1 Treeman.
Of course i will reorganize costs: this would mean a huge progress for GS, seeing them now with different eyes. :o
6 scorpions advance: have 5 mov points.
3 spiders advanvce: cheaper reg, 5 mov points + unimpeded by difficult terrain + radar (360º view)
The stats wont be changed, are Original. So these guys have 4 wounds each one, although still are awful in combat (Initiative 1!)

Greenskins will have now some sort of 2 "Tank" options. Mov 5 and 4 wounds each unit in Reg (without mention the obvious that they have no Item Slots and keep their 3 Basic Armors).
Goblins Infantry can be combined with these "monsters tanks". Lets consider the truth about the race... Monsters were made for Goblins because they lack of some speed racial companion, but 1 monster doesnt serve much: they must be at least 3 (spiders) or 6 (scorpions).

I think this was what Alavet was asking for. Some tanky for GS, and at the same time, making a TRUE difference between Monsters options.

[Jeronimo] Lordbraprus who are you?? :D

There is no need to make special rules. Lets think in this game like something that can be played even for non-Warhammer persons. When someone without that knowledge only wants to have fun, can see prices and just click, with the certainty its all balanced. As I always wanted: only clicking wihtout considering extra-valuating data.

CAN BE DONE. Im just following the correct way. The big 9k Tournament was not a WHIM. Was the chance to do a Mega Big Test to both parts: Mod + Ruleset. After that experience I am now in higher condition to improve the game.

I read and also felt the experiences of 9k battles (this gold limit revealed things quicker. Thats the main reason I insisted 9k).
Read above, GS and BGK changes. Are needed if we want to be free of Warhammer clasification.

What happens if we play with that of special, unique, core... happens for example that Alavet armies will always have 3 Flagellants, UD armies will always have 1 BGK, and so on... The Warhammer clasification is reducing the Freedom of players because considering some are OverPowerful, they will mean the CLASSIC OPTION.
"If you dont have them in army you are not intelligent at editing armies..." I dont know if People realize my analysis.

I hope some PC Strategy Player (not heavy-Warhammer), also understands my point of view. Im making Dark Omen a PC Game for everybody (like when I sat to play this game for first time when was a kid).

@Warhammer fanatics: The Clasification of Unique, Core, Special Reg is something of Table Board Game.
Of course is needed there, with so many powerful heroes and strong reg... But for Dark Omen, despite being created in consideration of Original Game, can be done in different way.
Here we (I modder of FO) can change this, balancing different parts and not having nothing so Super (like BGK) or too Weak (like useless GS monsters in big battles).
The Result: A real time strategy game with 3 races, commanding infantry, archers, cavalry, mages and artillery of different style. Each Army with his strong/weak points etc. Just a cool game! :)

 8) Well. Was time of having my own account.

Renovated FO, Renovated Jeronimo. Post your comments sires.

Changes for next release 12th October: BGK without Lcheck, GS Monsters as Small Reg (3/3, 6/6) to make them useful in big battles.

The Goal is to have multiple options when editing armies.
BGK: You wont need anymore Special Armybuild to face these nightmare knights.
With Empire you always needed some Flagellants/Treeman.
With GS you... well, total massacre.
Now game will be more open for different strategies.

Monsters Squads: Greenskins lack of variety of "Fast Regiments".
I killed many birds with 1 shot by doing this change: difference between monsters, some "goblin cavalry" (since they have 5 mov points), and "Tank Regiment" because these monsters have 4 wounds/3 armor each one.

i hate BGK without LS check. why they ever need now? wtf? who will ever buy them for 1,8 or even 1,4k now? whats will be unique in UD then? their vamprie iwll be decresed i nspeed, mummies will suck more agaisnt more strong opponents and bgk have no LS check? WTF?!

apart from this i actually like your changes, despite of your "style of posting". your proposed changes really good. mainly i like it cause you'r going to change stats of the units, the idea i appreciate much. change vampire MS to 4 as well..

i think after you will made all these changes you need to create big .changelog file with diffirience from orginal DO, so it will be possible to browse breifly through it and make adjustments easier (cause now there is a lot of posts and its hard to search)

gl man!

That's why i dont gonna play again FO :).

Aclaration comment.

Although I suggested changing stats, Im now not convinced of that. I prefer to reorganize prices and head.
Removing Lcheck is still a good idea because allows GS to fight them. (You realize many BGK could kill GS easily)
And my propose is to "destroy" special editing army rules. Attack to Warhammer?? :D
Coming future: "Mmh, perhaps i will buy 1 grail, 2 horsemen, some ghouls, 1 wraith, 1 necromancer!"
BGK will be still special because does 2att/2 wounds, causing fear and never flees. Think in them as fast flagellants.
The game becomes even MORE TACTICAL with this. Note: Still UD Catapult has Lcheck! (buy it :) )

Truth: I wont change stats, many dont like the idea, and in fact, me neither. But BGK change was needed because allows more diversity in other races when facing them.. Lets see, in future you wont "be afraid" if your opponent masses BGK: the consecuence of their Lcheck pushed all players to buy flagellants. YOU already know this.

Vampire will be the same, new price of course: I reorganized all wizards in a better scale.
Mummies will be still the "Stars", because i wont give Big'un more att, or whatever I wrote before. Same stats all Reg.
[/quote]
apart from this i actually like your changes, despite of your "style of posting".[/quote]

I have finished the Re-Valuation of prices. I will share wizards new costs (notice there is more difference)
Shaman Goblin: 360
Shaman Orc: 480
Ice Mage: 540
Bright Wizard: 600
Necromancer: 720
Vampy!: 1200
First, I clasified in worst/better Spell Book, then revising stats I found some of them shared similar numbers (the 480/540/600) so they have only 60 difference considering the spell book.
But Necro, Goblin are slighty better/worst than average. So they are +120, -120.
And finally Vampire, is x2 average cost +120 (1080+120 = 1200). This also creates a initial 480 difference with Necro (previous FO was only 360, now a bit more).
I already like this new balance because makes my favourite combo expensive: Vampire + Osiris (1200+800=2000gc)

About Monsters Squads...
6/6 Scorpions: 1200
Triple Ghabry: 660
1 Troll: 300 (same)
Considering the Boar Boyz are at 600, this has been the suitable prices. Arent they a bit... expensive? Yes, otherwise some man would mass them at 3k. However Imagine some Monster armybuild
6 Scorp x 2 (2400), Troll x 2 (600): 3k
Oh nice,, 12 scorp, 2 trolls, but scorp are moving together, so you can handle them with arrows, magic (and not miss)
Also makes "Terror Compacted", the best was when they were separated, so allowed multiple tries, but now... Troll has that honor only, and the triple spider cost 660 (lets say a Spider Squad costs you 1320gc and occupies 2 Reg Slots).

All is finely balanced.

PD: Treeman new price is 1320 (yeah, like 2 Spider reg) and at the same time... like 1 Super Mercenary cavalry: 660--1320 (is more Balanced now). Other changes are in HU/UD too... one on the points i focused was "Imagining Goblins being Victorious", considering that small chance they have to deal with ranged HU or scary UD.
Of course they dont have it that easy, but I worked hard this time for revaluating all races.

Whats bad with my style of posting? haha

For example i dont like remove lcheck from BGK ;) so, sorry Jeronimo but some of your changes i dont gonna like.

Hi Nitrox. Removing that is crucial if we want a Fair Game. Otherwise Special editing rules must be used.
And believe me Nitrox, Im trying to keep original reg. But BGK counts more like a "hero", not even close to a Standard Regiment. BGK still will be same of potent. Combined with swords you know its a formidable adversary.

Whats the problem with Regiments "heroes like"? They are too imba in relation with others... so rules such as "you can have only 1 BGK" becomes more an OBLIGATION than a free Regiment to choice from 12 options (the 12 UD regiments).

Same happens with Flagellants, they are far to be "Heroes like" but if you face UD with Empire... you think "I MUST have at least 2 flaggelants to face the 90% obvious BGK my opponent will have in his army".
I hate this type of LOGIC. Look Nitrox.. if Dark Omen had more Regiments such as BGK (with his Lcheck/power), I would leave it, but if only UD have such an advantage... I dont agree with the Lcheck.

I hope Im not the only one that notices this... Do you want to keep editing army with the same logic forever? "If he buys the BGK I will need... to face it due to his Lcheck" Its no longer funny.
Cuts Imagination. You edit thinking in BGK always you make a Greenskin army, tell me the truth.

What will be of Tactical real time game? My decision will help to explore other possibilities. Perhaps more Imperial/Mercenary troops in Empire. Its Over-used the Elf archers + Flagg.

I dont agree with Alavet about BGK are going to suck. They are still great cavalry.

@Nitrox: Before anything you are going to write... tell me first if you understand my point of view.
And of course, I would like to HEAR your reason about why you dont like my idea. What do you expect from a FO?

Fair Game? You joking now right? Warhammer is not a Fair game, one army is better second is better and third is the best. In Warhammer there isnt a balanced armies, one is better than one and searching a balance for own in a created system is something like ...Joke.



Changing Prices, editing a size of armies is ok. But changing rules of the units, stats etc..(I'm not talking that you changing the stats!) It's suck in my opinion, rules for BGK was made and editing it for your own suck Jeronimo. For example i dont gonna buy BGK without lcheck they suck, with cost 1800...It's a joke right? 2attack/2wounds dont make them overpower and good unit.

Im still reorganizing prices. 1800gc is old FO price (when had Lcheck).

Nitrox, here's my opinion: Empire and Greenskins dont have nothing similar to BGK.
Warhammer is not balanced of course. But has MANY more things. Here we just play with few reg.

Description of BGK say they are strong cavalry... and still cause fear. The Lcheck is just "causing additional fear".
They will continue being bought tough. (new price isnt known)

There are differences between armies. I never said FO "Fair Omen" is "Equal Omen", that sounds like shit.
FO is about giving chances to "never bought" regiments. How? Making changes to cost/heads, not stats.

And psychology. You mistake in talking I changed this for my own: Zombies ddint have "immune to fear", Ogres didnt have "cause fear". Considering your arguments I will respond: Warhammer texts say it, but werent "ticked" on game (Editor revealed me that). So no changes were made as silly whim.

The Lcheck was one of the things that ruined the Tournament. (you saw many BGK in all armies)
Fair Omen is not a joke. Its the key that will open New Doors. Its the light that will end with the currently repeated UD logic armybuild. Its the beggining of free choices...

Some of your changes like give immune to fear zombies and ogre cause fear is ok, but remove the Lcheck from BGK...Sorry, i dont gonna accept this one change.

There is NO another way.
To keep my Promise "Edit whatever you want": Thats how we will be free armybuild editers at last.

In fact, there are more advantages in removing this, than keeping it.

Empire wont have the Obligation of buying at least 2/3 Flaggelants.
Greenskins only chance was having Banner of Defiance in something like Big'uns. Even strong Wizard wasn't effective.

I... as strategy game player... need to see more possibilities: Many restringed due to Lcheck of BGK.
If you have played much DO you agree with my words. How long will we have to play the same?

I won't say anything to the ruleset before it is finished, but I will comment your sentences. However FO will be, it will definitely not be the first ruleset which ends the "currently repeated UD logic armybuild". I looked through the older tournament UD armybuilds posts and there are nearly all regiments used and every armybuild is different. First took grails as core unit, others two skeleton horsemen and the third used ghouls. So there it was possible to create different build without removing any Lchecks or whatever.

I think the problem is not the Lcheck itself, the problem are the number of grails.

Interesting point of view Bembelimen.

I thought in another solution. Lets keep Lcheck in BGK. In fact... that is what makes them Black Grail Knights, otherwise would be just another strong cavalry of game with nothing special.

It was a really big mistake the idea of allowing this "Commander REG" from campaign.
Would be the same topic if we could choice Manfred Von Carstein as a regular Wizard (ooops), or Dread King occuping same Reg ubication of what is Treeman in Empire.

A Fair multiplayer battle must not have such Dark Omen BOSSES.
My suggestion now goes further: replacing BGK for my favourite UD Chariots.
Lots of benefits: You still have the Lcheck in a playable "not Boss Reg" and dont lose the "speed Reg".

My idea of chariots is they are 3/3 lvl 3 480gc - lvl 4 720gc (2 levels)
Very nice to complete Skeletons armies: Of course wont have the "Skeleton Flag" like UD catapult.

Since my job is offering a wide open game (with no armybuild restrictions), this means a huge progress. Agree?

Cool, I will check the Singleplayer Regiments missed from campaign (Ghabry's archive)

mmh..

HEHEHE , so after checking Ghabrys archive. I found actually than Manfred Von Carstein is in fact worst than normal Vampire.

-1 strenght, -1 Toughness + Destroyed if Routed: is that the great Carstein we had to face?
Much preferrible than our beloved vampy if we wanted to have such a powerful wizard with a "weak point".
Anyway, as I already said, No Bosses in Multiplayer.

Chariots seem to be cool, since they are 3/3 with mov 8!. Its already panicking me.

dont have time to detaield answer but just soem food for your brain: in table warhammer such as "monsters" or "hero" very always allowed in the game.

Yes, I know that Mr. Alavet.

Replacing BGK x Chariot is not bad idea. The nice Lcheck will be still in multiplayer as weapon.

By doing this, the game becomes pure tactic without rules of core/special/unique.

I wouldnt be against the BGK if: GS and Empire had something "similar" to BGK. I dont feel GS has something "unique" too, so... not a Fair game (talking about the available options in DO Multiplayer, Not the Warhammer world)

ok, so from here i can say that i never gonna touch it

Did you read all my explanations? (since many posts ago) Im trying to make the game better and you Nitrox only are thinking that things will never be the same.

Have you ever played with chariots? They are awesome charging (with Lcheck as important psychology)

The chariots are original, i dont have to change them and are cool, not imba for playing game.

What multiplayer needs is a "regular regiment" to replace BGK, if you READ everything i have been explaining, you will find why Multiplayer need such rules, just because of 1 Boss Regiment from Campaign...

Black Grails is normally in Warhammer, chariots too...So why removing the BGK? Jero, i will not change my decision and i will not play FO anymore.

The eternal problem with making dark omen a fair game for all races using only unit prices is that the only real way to do it is to make a standard unit roster for each race, where all units are equal to eachother.
Like 3 infantry regiments, 1 wizard, 1 cavalry, 1 artillery, 1 archers regiments for each race.
Else than that fairness is relative and the discussion of fair or not wont end, changes to the original game will be rather big so its not gonna agree with all players.

When so many changes are made, prices, stats and units, it will not be easy to convince devoted players that the new version will work. We are not all the same and not all rulesets is to everyones liking and nor should it be or no new systems would be made.

To introduce a new system to more players and try to show of you ideas, i would suggest that instead of tryn to convince the players in a discussion that more about personal flavor than game testing. I would suggest that you plan a day where you are online and offer yourself as an opponent in survival games, almost like a mini multiplayer campaign.
If a system is only used in tournaments where players are forced to play then the system will be a dead system that is not used outside that. To get players to use it in regular for fun battles is the best way to get it working.

Well... it seems I will have to play my Last Card.

After twisted ideas and tries of resolving this, the only way left is to classify the Regiments in Core/Rare/Machine/Unique. "UMRC Structure"

Core: X
Rare: 3
Machine: 2
Unique: 1? ;D

Its very easy to understand and follow. BGK will return to the Mod. Chariots out.

Explanation!
Core: is all about Infantry, Ranged, Cavalry. No limits for them.
Rare: are Monsters or Overpowered regiments such as Pistoliers, Mummies, 6/6 Scorpions, etc.
Machine: Guess who? Only 5 of these in DO.
Unique: Mages and the outstanding BGK!

Now, the REALITY behind the classification... The limit numbers not refer to how many "copies" can you have of a same Regiment. They refer to how many of that type can you have: Armybuild becomes Super Fair. Reasons?

Rare: If limit is 3 (considering Warhammer rules) you would be able to combine 3 treeman, 3 ogres, 3 flaggelants, so... it becomes another "Horror army" that will crush GreenSkins.
Considering my Clasification, NEW Role of Rare: you may combine these regiments in something like "1 Treeman/2 Flagellants " but no more.... other 7 reg spaces will have to be occupied by Core (in fact there are many Core), perhaps Machines and Wizard.

Machine: hehe, would you like to have 2 Mortars/2 cannons and wait in a hill to the enemy approach? No Sir. Machine limit is referred to all machines deployed. Thats right, you can have for example max 2 orc ballista and no Orc Lobber. No more the "cannon wall". Choose wisely your artillery!!

Unique: Easy... only 1 Mage in combat (anyway, I dont see having 2 or 3 wizards like a good "edited army")
But lets see the most important contribution of Unique type: Undead options.
You may choose between 1 Necromancer, 1 Vampire or 1 BGK.
It would be horrorsome if you combine Vampire + BGK to fight Greenskins.
Also, allows more "variants to plan strategy", something like... Necro, Vamp or BGK? Mmh.. i love BGK with Lcheck but losing magic casting... Choose wisely!!
BGK without Wizard at his side has own benefits... if Gold Limit is high, you will able to deploy a Powerful Grail with much Exp + shields / 3 Items Slots (with good Items), since you dont spend money in expensive Wizards, osiris, etc.

Conclusion: If we combine my "UMRC Structure" + upcoming better prices of FO = A finally better Mod with chances for every race (talking specially of those Greenies). :D

GS example: Standard Armybuild where you make 1-2-3-4 (use all limited-types leaving you with space for 4 of Core)
1 Orc Shaman (U), 2 Orc Lobber (M), 2 Giant Scorpions/1 Troll (R), 2 Arrer Boyz/2 Orc Boyz (C).

The Last Card has been played.

UMRC-Structure? hmmmmmmmmmm (http://wiki.dark-omen.org/do/DO/Rules/9000/30_TTS) (ok this one linked is planned without changing unit costs)

Is this not a conflict? free choices <=> rare/uniques units?


The last card before you published the new version? Sounds bad, let's hope, that this is not true  ;)


That's the point.


Good idea.

Hello Bembe,  ;D

It seems the ideas went from total freedom to some "type chains".

A conflict... yes from the point of view I tried everything to allow "no extra rules".

Free choices are not welcome if BGK is available in FO. Changing the price, removing Lcheck, replacing it for Chariot... seems all those proposes didnt "like general audience".

Btw I wrote Standard Armybuild there, not as obligation. Dont misunderstand me please, I have had a lot of that before. The Standard Armybuild (just a name) refers to the classic distribution of types. 1-2-3-4

There are lots of combinations, but "the Standard" means something like "Minimum Core in ARMY" which is number 4, if you are having 10 reg in battle. Not a Rigid Structure as you thought.

I called UMRC because is not warhammer style (although i borrow some names :D ). Here the combinations must respect the limit, otherwise we will find mass cannons, or 10 Trolls with 3k (300gc each one).

I will give you another Armybuild... lets call it Black Head 1-2-4, Undead: 1 BGK (U)- 2mummies (R)- 4horsemen (C).
These guys have Swords, Mummies anti-magic/defiance, so less regiments, some Items, BGK/Mummies have full armor.

Interesting link Ghabry. Someone thought in this before.

In fact, the Empire "Rare" are equal to what i had in mind... very nice job.

Character is more suitable for Wizards. I like it better: Character, Unique, Rare, Core. (CURC ;D)

@Bembe/Flak: When i have free time I will join network chat for playing with somebody but not yet.
Im writing the ideas I have in mind and posting them so you can advice and opin about the resolutions for good or bad. i wouldnt like to upload a Mod with changes "not welcome" for Community (like replacing BGK).

@Bembelimen:The Last Card refers to classifing the Regiments in Types. It cuts a bit the "freedom", but what can I do? Regiments are based on Warhammer World, and thats how works... i dont want to change much "heads" because BGK or Flagellants would lose their Identity (9 flag, 12 BGK)

I had this new IDEA yesterday. Its classifing them in 3 types intead of 4, the mechanism of editing armies is different.

Single, Elite, Core  ("SEC" Structure)

Single: The "Character+Unique". Only 1 Reg of each "Single Regiment". EG: 1 necro/1 vamp/1 BGK in same army.

Elite: The "Rare" from WH. (Rare is not suitable IMO, since there are Monsters+Heavy Artillery+Other Special here)

Core: The same Type as WH. (I actually like this word to refer the Common Regiments)

So... how would work this? Check this Formula: S·E=<C

Single are just Singles, no secret in that. Now the Improvement consists on E=<C , you can have as many Elite Regiments as Core there are in army. =< means Elite must be equal or less than Core.
This way, Armies Identities become REAL, core, elite, singles.

Whats the diference with WH? You can have 4/5 copies of a same "Rare Reg".

Example: 5 flagellants (E) supported by 3 archers/2cavalries (C)
Of course, having 5 Elite, takes 1 slot that could have been occupied by a Wizard.

Other combo is this: 2·4·4 (1 Necro/BGK, 4 Wraiths, 4 Ghouls).
As you have seen, is possible having 4 of same Reg or 5 (if you sacrifice the Single Regiment spaces)

What problems wont happen?? If we use WH Rare, will be common a "Greenskins HorrorWave" very boring, very difficult to stop: Im talking of 1 Orc Shaman, 3 Trolls 3/3, 3 Spiders 3/3, 3 Scorpions 6/6. (I already checked this can be bought with 9k)
Another combination that would be possible and DESTROYS everything is: 3 Flagellants+ 3 Ogres+ 3 Treeman.
So... what would be of Core Regiments in 7/9k Armies? Almost Invisible, to the point we really dont see any CORE in those armies.

Conclusion: This new SEC structure will re-mean the concept of "Balanced Armies", and make Multiplayer Battles work properly, guaranteeing Fun & Strategy. From my point of view, the SEC would also work in ANY mod or DO Version outside FO: it needs some testing because SEC is new... I expect great success for it. ;)