Warhammer Dark Omen Forum

Hi, Some of you may rerember me from a few years back, I setup a message board, hamachi rooms, and a short lived campaign, when Mark of Choas (pile O’ shite) was in beta.

Anyway I got bored with DO and disappeared for bit, but I’ve decided to restart development on Necrominicon.

What is Necrominicon?
It’s a unit editor + army builder + mod interface all designed for ease of use and rolled into one (windows based).

What’s the point?
It allows easy creation and playing of multiplayer mods, leagues and campaigns.  Allowing the player to put together his army outside of DO army creation screen allows for much greater flexibility, and a whole slew of new feature not included in DO.

Features

Allows the easy creation of downloadable rule sets and armies, though which the user can easily browse though, and create valid army builds.
Allows game-masters to do the following:
Ban items, Change Item Price, Allow multiple quantities of the same item.
Only allow specific item/unit combinations (eg only allow wand of jet if your using a Ice mage not a fire mage)
Ban Units, Limit Unit Numbers (allows for armies of up to 19 units beyond the default 10), Limit specific unit numbers (eg, up to 2 mortars allowed), and limit specific unit type (eg up to 3 artillery any combination mortar/cannon).
Allows the applying of a point cost to units as well as gold cost.
Allow multiple unit gold/point increases (eg 1st unit of zombie 100gp, 2nd cost 150 gp, etc)
Allows the setting of any gold or point limit.
Allows the applying of spells to item slots (might be useful for say creating mages that can’t use teleport).

What will not be supported (at least not initially)
Altering unit sprites.
Altering the single player game.

Any other ability or rule suggestions are welcome.

---

Help Wanted

Please check these questions over time i’ll edit the post with what I need over time and delete answered questions.

I could do with info on the following:
Weapon types
What do the following weapons do (in-game):
Polearm
Flail
2 handed sword
Wrightblades
Etc

Necromancers raise dead spell: where does it get the info for the zombies?  Is it from the unit file or engrel?  (testable by altering the unit file so all zombie troops have 1 zombie, if it doesn’t get the stats from there it might be locatable by searching for the hex values of zombie attributes in the other DO files.

I’ve seen pictures of units with increased sizes but, how does the game cope with unit number increases to a single char units (eg 4 mages in a unit?, I presume the leader casts? Could you create units with a mage leader?), and monsters? (eg. 4 scorpions in a unit)

Additional Damage to skeleton units – anybody got an idea what the rule is?

Archer range – is it related to weapon (which i’d always assumed) skill and/or racial flag?

Great to have u back again

and I remember the early concept for Necrominicon, it will be excellent to see it revived and Fantastic questions on the Game Engine. In Shadow of The Horned Rat some weapons are exceptionally powerful and they give their wielder a Strength bonus in hand to hand combat. This means that the wielder's Strength is increased by the value indicated below:

Weapon Strength bonus
Greatsword (two handed sword)+2
 
http://forum.dark-omen.org/singleplayer/sothr-game-mechanics-stats-t273.0.html (http://forum.dark-omen.org/singleplayer/sothr-game-mechanics-stats-t273.0.html)


also concerning "Additional Damage to skeleton units"

http://forum.dark-omen.org/troops/skeleton-unbreakability-test-t300.0.html (http://forum.dark-omen.org/troops/skeleton-unbreakability-test-t300.0.html)


Skelton Special Rules -COMBAT
"Skeltons cannot be broken in hand to hand combat and need never take a Break test if beaten in combat. When they are beaten in hand to hand combat the magical link between them and their master is weakend and as a result, some of the skeletons collapse and are destoyed. For every point by which they have lost the combat one extra skeleton is removed. This means that Skelton units will quickly dissolve away if they are beaten, although they can never be broken as such."

Wight Blades
Wights are armed with ancient enchanted swords, or other evily enchanted weapons. These are magic weapons and any blow from a Wight's sword will drain the lfe away from its victim, causing not 1 wound on the individual but-
D3(roll a D6: 1-2=1,3-4=2,5-6=3)

-Warhammer Armies Undead Book 1994

http://forum.dark-omen.org/tavern/warhammer-table-top-rule-books-on-ebay-t367.0.html (http://forum.dark-omen.org/tavern/warhammer-table-top-rule-books-on-ebay-t367.0.html)

So I will look forward to trying some of your future - In Game Tests on my 2 virtual PCs

:)

Nice, I seem to rerember someone saying 2H swords made you hit last except vs zombies (ie as if you had an Int score of 1), any mention of this in the 4th ed empire army book?

Psycology:
You take break tests if you lose in combat or are charged.
How does fear / terror work?

Also what counts as points in combat for the skeles? Ie they kill 2 but lose 4 does that = 2 extra lost troop?  Is it counted on wounds or kills? do numbers/ranks/height count?

2H weapons count as -1 to initiative but +1 to strength.

????

Okay we've got olly's +2 to strenght, mika's +1strength - 1 initative, and my +2strenght init =1.

In balance terms i can see mine being right if they just give + 2 why would you ever equip polearms that just give +1,
same with mika plus -1 initative doesn't seam that much of a penalty.

However I can't rerember where i got the +2 hit last rule from - i think it was from a later edition. 

No mine are quoted from Shadow of the Horned as an insight to what Dark Omen could be.

:)

Welcome back darkmancer


According to the Wiki (http://wiki.dark-omen.org/do/EngRel) (yes, the wiki knows many things about the internals ^^) the zombie block starts at 0x000EA168 in the English engrel.
But I already tested modifying this a while ago. Imo sprite changing crashed the game and changing the banner will cause graphical glitches. Havn't tested any further.

Ahhh sweet.

I must admit I'd be a bit dubious of altering the sprites as the "raise" animation might make the DO engine spaz.  However I suspect you'll be able to change the ws/s/mv/I/L/etc of the zombies without to much trouble, the number of zombies raise again might crash the game.

It's something I'll test later, and add-in to later editions.

There's also how DO will cope with only one EngRel changed in a multipler match.

"Psycology
You take break tests if you lose in combat or are charged.
How does fear / terror work"

According to the Shadow of the Horned Rat Manual -

FEAR

Fear is a reaction to huge monsters or unnerving situations. If a regiment wishes to engage an enemy that it fears, it must first take a Leadership test to overcome its fear. If a regiment is charged by an enemy that it fears it must take a Leadership test - if the regiment fails the test the regiment will flee. For a list of regiments which cause or are subject to fear see SPECIAL RULES on page 114.

http://forum.dark-omen.org/singleplayer/sothr-game-mechanics-stats-t273.0.html (http://forum.dark-omen.org/singleplayer/sothr-game-mechanics-stats-t273.0.html)

I would guess that Terror means that they automatically fail the Leadership test.

I've researched the Flaggelent's Flail weapon but nothing except it costs +1 Army point in the Warhamemr Table Top, so again I guess it maybe +1 Weapon Strength or perhaps +1 Initiative? Once I hoped that the SOTHR Mounted Lance +2 (on charging only) could be the same as a Polearm but sadly not as i dont think we can implement +2 on charging only and can only make a unit have Charriot like Stats instaed. Your comment about 2 Handed Swords being last to hit sounds familar, hence Mikademus' -1 Initiative.  

:)

*Update* - I've now found lots more great info on Double handed weapons - Two handed Sword, Fail and Halbedier will post soon.*

I've already made a similar army builder, which supports testing armies against rulesets, written in C#.  If you would like the source for reference / extension, then let me know.

What's it say in the 4th rule book?

I keep looking on ebay for it but all there is are 3rd and 5th editions.  I might just buy the 5th edition as its v.similar to 4th according to the WHFB wiki.

- Rob
Sure can you send the scource and exe that'll be great.

I have nothing to add to the topic, but nice to see you here Darkmancer :)

Fear

Fear is a natural reaction to huge monsters or unnerving situations. Creatures that casue fear are indicated in the Bestiary section and include such large and disturbing monsters as Trolls as well as supernatural horrors such as Skeletons. A unit must take a fear test in the following situations:

1) If a unit is charged by an enemy that it fears then it must take make a test to overcome its fear. If successfull then the unit can fight as normal. If the unit fails to over come its fear then the unit will automatically flee if out numberd by the charging enemy. If the nemy does not outnumber the unit it will fight as normal but must roll 6's to score hits in the first turn of combat. Note that this test is taken once the enemy declares his charge and is found to be within his charge distance.

2) If a unit wishes to charge an enemy that it  fears then it must take a test to overcome its fear. If the test is failed the unit may not charge and must remain stationary.

A unit defeated in hand-to-hand combat is automatcially broken without a break test if it is outnumbered by enemy that it fears. If the fear causing enemy does not outnumber the unit then a break test is taken as normal. See hand-to-hand Combat section for details of break test and fleeing troops. Note that it makes no difference whether a fear test is passed or not, a unit defeated in hand-to-hand combat is automatically broken if it is defeated by an enemy that causes fear.

Terror
Some monsters are so huge and threatening that they are even more frightening than those described by the fear rules. These creatures cause  Terror. Troops confronted  by monsters or situations that cause terror must test to see if they overcome their terror. Should they fail they will be completely overwhelmed with horror and reduced to gibbering wrecks. Troops only ever test for terror once in a battle. Once they have overcome their terror they are not affected again.

If a creature causes terror then it automatically causes fear as well and all the rules described above apply. However, you never have to take a terror and fear test from the same enemy or situation-just take a terror test: if you pass the terror test then you automatically pass the fear test too. As you only ever take one terror test in a battle, any subsequent encounters with terrifying monsters or situations will simply count as fear.

1) A unit must test to overcome its terror if charged by or wishing to charge an enemy that causes terror.

2) A unit must test for terror at the start of its turn if there is an enemy which causes terror within 8"

Remember that only a single test is ever made for terror by any unit during the whole game, whether it is made because of a charge or because the unit finds itself within 8" of a terror-causing monster.

A unit which fails its terror test will flee immediately, exactly as if it had failed its break test in hand -to-hand combat, or decided to flee from a charge.



Fear and Terror Liabilities

Obviously a large monster is less likely to suffer fear or terror. There is no way a huge dragon is going to be scared of a troll, for example. These special liabilities also apply to any rider of a large monster too, so a dragon rider wouldnt be afraid of a creature that would cause fear or terror were he on foot. The following rules apply.

"A creature that causes fear is not affected by the enemy that cause fear. Faced with an enemy that causes terror, a fear causing monster only sufferes fear, not terror. For example, a troll causes fear and a dragon causes terror. The dragon is not at all worried by the troll but the troll fears the dragon.

A creature that causes terror is not affected by fear or terror at all.

It sometimes happens that a unit of a perfectly ordinary troops is led by a mighty hero or a monster which causes fear or terror. In this situation you must test for fear/terror if a charge will result in you fighting the hero or monster in question. In the case of terror you must also test if you are within 8" of the creature at the start of your turn but not necessarily because you are within 8" of the unit. However, if you are charging a unit in the side or rear, so that you won't have to fight a monster in the front rank, then you do not have to test. Basically this is common sense - if you don't have to confront the beast then no test is required."


-4th Edition
Warhammer Rule Book 1992

http://forum.dark-omen.org/tavern/warhammer-table-top-rule-books-on-ebay-t367.0.html (http://forum.dark-omen.org/tavern/warhammer-table-top-rule-books-on-ebay-t367.0.html)


:)

3rd ed is my personal favourite, it has advanced rules and after 3rd it was started to be dumbed down. 5th ed places enormous emphasis on hero characters, hence its nickname "Herohammer". In consequence, it is a little liked rules edition, but for that it is quite similar to 4th ed rules.

Double-Handed Weapons

This category includes all axes, swords, hammers and clubs which are so large that they have to be wielded with two hands. These are ferocious weapons!  A blow from a double-handed axe can cut a foe clean in half and easily break armour apart. The disadvantage is that they are very heavy to swing and so the beater may be slain by a more nimble foe before he has a chance to strike.

1) Double-handed weapons require boths hands to use. If the beater has a shield he may not use it in hand-to-hand combat. It must be left on the ground or slung on his back during the fighting.

2) Double-handed weapons are heavy to swing and leave the user vulnerable to a more lightly armed foe. Double-handed weapons always strike last regardless of which side charges or relative initiative levels. If both sides are armed in this way the side with the highest initiative strikes first.

3) Double-handed weapons confer a +2 strength bonus on all hits. If the wielder's strength is 3 then all hits from a double-handed weapon with be at strength 5 for example. As the enemy's armour save is affected by the strength of the hit, this will be reduced too. In the case of a strength 5 hit the saving throw drops by -2 for example.



Flails

Flails are swung with both hands and consist of heavy weights, often spiked, attached to a pole or handle by means of heavy chains. It is extremely tiring swinging these heavy and cumbersome weapons.

1) Troops using flails require both arms to swing them and cannot therfore use shields in hand-to-hand fighting. If they carry shields they are slung onto backs before fighting begins.

2) In the first turn of any hand-to-hand combat, troops equipped with flails add +2 to thier strength. So men with a strength of 3 will hit with a strength of 5 and any enemy saves are taken with modifier for fighting high strength opponents.

3) In subsequent turns the flail users begin to tire and so they do not receive any bonus.



Halberds -Polearm

The halberd is a heavy bladed weapon mounted on a sturdy shaft. The steel blade had a point like a spear as well as a heavy cutting edge like an axe. It is held in both hands and used to chop as well as thrust, so it is a very adaptable and extremley effective weapon for infantry.

1) Troops equipped with a halberd require both arms to wield it and cannot use shields in hand-to-hand fighting. If they carry shileds it is assumed they are slung onto their backs or placed on the ground before fighting begins.

2) Halberds are heavy weapons and a mighty swing can cause considerable damage. Halberds therefore confer a +1 strength bonus on all hits. A man with a strength of 3 therefore hits with a strength of 4 if fighting with a halberd. The strength of a hit affects the armour save of the target, so this may be reduced as well. In the case of a human with a strength if 3 a halberd hit has a strength of 4 and -1 to save for instance.


-4th Edition
Warhammer Rule Book 1992

http://forum.dark-omen.org/tavern/warhammer-table-top-rule-books-on-ebay-t367.0.html (http://forum.dark-omen.org/tavern/warhammer-table-top-rule-books-on-ebay-t367.0.html)


:)

i miss the polearms bein giantslayer(in mark of chaos +1dmg to mounbted/large and giant creatures)gues in do instead of things doin +1 dmg(like a greatsword or other 2handed weapons do in mark of chaos) here it boosts the units strenth instead,but havent found anything about polearm weapons doing xtra anything against large units :(

i've wondered about giving halberdiers wright blades.  Strange I know but it would make them less effective vs general units but more effective vs units with morre than 1hp (ie the monsters), i wonder if they'd count as magic weapons ingame vs wraiths, hmmm.

Somethings going on with the flaggelants they seem far more effective than they're (admittedly decent) stats would suggest, I know they have the no rout flag, but the little suckers seem to rip though everything the +2 on charge doesn't seem to cover it.  I'm wondering if there's a bug with flails and the get they're bonus constantly.

@ Mika - it's odd that the 4th edition is considered "herohammer" and yet dark omen doesn't really suffer from hero characters (nearest being the treeman or vampire i suppose), I have to say it's all the better for it too.

5th ed is "Herohammer".

flagellants have 2 attacks as well

Still around, necrominicon on pause, working on a unusual way to stop the flicker

TTFN

Full screen 3d mode i have got working (as you know) but it would be great if someone owns a new Flat screen monitor that has 8ms response times but crucially 100hz Refresh Rate, like this one or any Flat screen that offers good response times and vital 100hz.
 

http://computing.kelkoo.co.uk/p-computer-monitors-114401/samsung-syncmaster-460p-46-15418285#specs (http://computing.kelkoo.co.uk/p-computer-monitors-114401/samsung-syncmaster-460p-46-15418285#specs)

to test for me Full Screen 3D mode (with nvidia but Radeon i can assist with similar settings if required).

http://forum.dark-omen.org/help-section/dark-omen-in-full-3d-mode-high-res-xp-and-no-flicker-t248.0.html (http://forum.dark-omen.org/help-section/dark-omen-in-full-3d-mode-high-res-xp-and-no-flicker-t248.0.html)

as Full 3D mode works with my old style CRT monitor and on all my Flat screens, it improves along with a higher refresh rate, such as from 60hz to my bro's 75hz TFT and at work on a 85hz, the flicker improves in a similar fashion(combined with nvidia settings) to my solution on CRT but now requires a new 100hz TFT Flat screen. I often want to pop into my local pc shop to try this sometime by pretending to be interested in purchasing such an expensive monitor and starting Dark Omen up to test. If it works then i guess all of us will eventually end up playing Dark Omen in Full 3D mode, when these newer monitors lower in price, sometime and become the norm/standard.

:)


(http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/6607/finall.jpg)

I'm on a flat screen and it looks awful, i'm not keen on forcing my moniter to 100mhz. 

Does dark omen look dull when you force 100MHZ on you laptop is the image dull?

You also mention replacing ddraw.dll this might have something to do with solving the problem (you should really access ddraw since directx 7 I think, the latest SDK marks it's status as "degraded" i think the term it (obsolete basically). 

From unfortunatly just installing dx5 won't overide the existing ddraw.dll it need to be done manually (which i presume is what you did.  I'd be wary of installing an old version as it may cause errors with other games.  Direct x should be compatible whichever version you have upto 9c but frankly bollocks.

There a chance a proxy DDraw.dll might work (basically install dx5 ddraw.dll in the dark omen directory and hope it ignores the one in sys32, i'm going to give that ago now.

What i'm trying to do to solve the flicker problem is to use hooks to grab the DO ddraw function, i'll get darkomens frame buffers in video memory, and basically check to see if the frame is correct before each frame flip.

Please never Force your monitor's refresh rate on a TFT Flat Screen.

My post advises against this and my whole Guide is based on an old style CRT monitor working with an Nvidia Graphics card settings and testing on my various  3 TFT Flat screens, all with different refresh rates (60, 75 and 85hz , all with 8ms repsonse times) and using each montior at a time, the flicker is reduced (using my 85hz Flat screen the flicker is almost disapeared, compared with 60hz), hence my theory that a new modern TFT Flat screen, that now come also with 100hz capabilties may well be able to play Dark Omen in Full 3d like my CRT 100>hz monitor, when combined with my Nvidia settings (Radeon i can help with).

http://forum.dark-omen.org/help-section/dark-omen-in-full-3d-mode-high-res-xp-and-no-flicker-t248.0.html (http://forum.dark-omen.org/help-section/dark-omen-in-full-3d-mode-high-res-xp-and-no-flicker-t248.0.html;msg1394#msg1394)


:)


ps.
Good luck with DDraw.dll  etc as i didnt need it in the end but its certainly worth further investigation, incase you come up with a better solution by using it.


(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6402/itzeko.jpg) (http://img17.imageshack.us/my.php?image=itzeko.jpg)
(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/959/itzeko2.jpg) (http://img17.imageshack.us/my.php?image=itzeko2.jpg)
(http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/3720/pepijin2.jpg) (http://img366.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pepijin2.jpg)

Using 3d mode on XP = Extra Polygon Triangles of Blood and Magic, Particle Effects and Clear Water. Plus nearly all Dead bodies stay on the Battlefield! When using an Nvidia Graphics Card and old Style CRT 100hz Monitor (or perhaps very new TFT Flat Screen 4-8ms but also now with 100hz).

:)

No luck with putting DX 5 in the folder with engrel it's hunting for the window 98/95 version of kernel32.dll (don't mess around with that), i'm going to see if ive any old games with direct 6/7/8.a/8.1.

It's a long shot but out of curiosity try 50hz refresh rate.

I already tried putting DLL-Files in the engrel-folder and got there the same kernel32-error. And don't try putting a win98 kernel32 in the folder, it will not work ;).

quite off topic but wouldnt it be an idea to try making a mod that adds more support for higher resolutions, better particle effects and so on? Ive seen this type of projects brought to fruition with many other popular old games.

offtopic:
now its clear that olly have few .doc files with diffirient themes like
"post to a /welcome/ thread (great time to join, new mods, tournaments etc)"
"post to 3d flickering thread (couple of sexy pics of olly's gameplay)"
or "post to netweork problems" threads

is it true olly? :D
admit me!

That's top secret ;)

Quick Update:  I believe the graphics problems are down to dark omen using using OpenGL functions (called though direct draw).

I've found other forum posts about other opengl progs with similar problems but no solutions.

I'm going to try and override the interface update settings, if that doesn't work i'll run a check on each frame outputed if its no good i'll set it to display the last good frame.

By the way does the New Game / load/ options / etc flash black / flicker for anyone else?  I think it might be a Win7 thing.

I am interested in this. Could you link me to a few places where they talk about it?

whenever i start game main menu is flickering. after i alt tab its over and i might play in shitty hardware mode (not 3d)

if i turn on 3d alt tab doesnt help (and even soemtimes ruins game).

I'm got a same problem in Dark Omen.

If we can set the output rate to match/sync with our various Monitor's refresh rates, then it will solve the problem, rather than my opposite solution of matching the Monitor to the output, using 100hz CRT Monitor or possibly new 100hz TFT Flat Screen (8ms).

 

Are there any news about the project? =)

bump