Warhammer Dark Omen Forum

what excatly happens when i push button "boost strenght"?
why sometimes its hard to push and soemeimes you may do it with few cliks?

what excatly happening when regiment screams "we fleed (dunno what they say excactly) the enemy!"? - usually i see nothing happens, in russian version they scream "we frozen the enemy!"

"To encourage a regiment to even greater effort during a battle,

repeatedly press the Hero button to boost their strength. This only

applies when a regiment is in hand-to-hand combat. This boost only affects

your current regiment and is only temporary. The Hero gauge shows the build-up

of strength boost. Only when the gauge is in the red zone will the boost have an effect.

Note that it will become harder to reach the red zone as your regiment suffers more casualties."





Every 30 Secs, a round of Stats calculations, occur

which determine the progress of the Battle etc..


Therefore, as the Hero Button is Pumped to it's max,

it increases the Unit's Strength Stats and effects the Result.


When a Unit cries out for Help, "Help us or we Fear the enemy"

that is an ideal time to Max their Boost, so I am constantly flicking to

each unit in Melee` and Boosting them up!


I personally find pumping the Hero Button, a large part of the game

and it certainly is another level of interactivity, that actually sways the Battle!


:)


(I will collect all the Data I have on which Stats and Post them soon,

as the Shadow of the Horned Rat and Dark Omen Manuals have great

descriptions of the Processes, including things like Armour Save etc

and of course how it relates to actual Table Top Rules!)


http://forum.dark-omen.org/singleplayer/sothr-game-mechanics-stats-t273.0.html (http://forum.dark-omen.org/singleplayer/sothr-game-mechanics-stats-t273.0.html)


:)

This is taken from SOTHR not Dark Omen but ...


ROUNDS

Once your regiment clashes with the enemy, the resulting combat is resolved by the computer

calculating a series of combat rounds. Each round lasts thirty seconds  and during this period of

time, the computer makes certain combat calculations to see who is winning


HAND-TO-HAND COMBAT

In each combat round, the front rank of each regiment in the battle attacks. The regiment with the

highest initiative attacks first. The Attack characteristic shows how many times each mercenary

warrior can attack in each round. When an individual attacks another, the Weapon Skill of the

combatants is compared to determine whether the attacker landed a blow. If so, the attackers

Strength is compared to the victims Toughness to determine whether the blow caused a Wound.

If so, there is a chance his armour may save him. If this armour save fails, the blow hits home and

the wound is caused. NOTE: Some weapons give the attacker a Strength bonus during combat.

For details of these see Weapons on page 86.


If the troop has more than one attack, the above process is repeated until his attacks have been

exhausted. Note that each attack may target a different enemy troop if sufficient enemy troops are

close by; this is particularly relevant for monsters, some of whom can have as many as 7 attacks

per round.


After a round has been completed, the total number of wounds caused by each side in the melee

is calculated. If applicable, bonus points are added for any regiments which charged the enemy in

the flank or the rear. Once it is determined which side scored less, all regiments belonging to that

side in the melee must take a Leadership test***. Any regiments which fail the test will rout from

the combat.


***Leadership tests are subject to psychology rules, for example Dwarf Slayers will never rout

from combat. See the PSYCHOLOGY section above for full details of the psychology rules.






So....

1) The regiment with the highest initiative attacks first

2) The Weapon Skill of the combatants is compared to determine whether the attacker landed a blow

3) If so, the attacker's Strength is compared to the victims Toughness to determine whether the blow caused a Wound.

4) If so, there is a chance his armour may save him. If this armour save fails, the blow hits home and the wound is caused

5) If the troop has more than one attack, the above process is repeated until his attacks have been exhausted.

6) After a round has been completed, the total number of wounds caused by each side in the melee is calculated.

7) If applicable, bonus points are added for any regiments which charged the enemy in the flank or the rear.

8) Once it is determined which side scored less, all regiments belonging to that side in the melee must take a Leadership

test***. Any regiments which fail the test will rout from the combat.



In the tabletop WARHAMMER BATTLE game tests are rolled by the players on two six sided dice. For example, a leadership

test is often performed to see if a regiment will rout (run away) from combat. If the result is higher that the

regiments Leadership value then the test has failed and the regiment will rout. In Shadow of the

Horned Rat the computer simulates these dice rolls.






Therefore always Hero Boost every troop in melee', as if Your Life Depends on it!


;)

Actually, if this is literary true even in DO, it means that the games ARE in fact (semi-)turn-based! Movement are in real time, but battles are resolved in turns! That makes these games kinda weird in design, but actually, it might be a good way of pacing a game - if everything was in continuous real-time then battles might be too quick for one to employ tactics. Also, it might mean less communication needed in network games.

/me has to think moire about this

8) weeelll this is a good time and post to make a teaser of a new section that Bembelimen and i are cooking! and to do it i will reveal  in the HINT a secret that i was keeping (can't make you a winner but really can help you to change the tide of a battle!)  :D :


TIP: To encourage a regiment to even greater effort during a battle,

repeatedly press the STRENGHT command on the control panel to boost their strength in hand to hand combat.

HOTKEY: Press repeatedly the "S" key on the keyboard to boost the strenght of a unit on the same way that you can do it with the STRENGHT command on the control panel.

HINT: Are you a fan of the Strength Boost  :D? Do you know about the "S" hotkey  ;D?! Then why don't you try to press repeatedly both the STRENGHT COMMAND (with the mouse) + the "S" HOTKEY (with a left finger)  :o??!!           DO IT! and you will be the fastest strenght boost shooter of the Far Far Old World!  8)

OT: Olly, is there a reason why you often have strange line breaks in your post?

I think it is because he writes his posts in a word processor or text editor and pasts them into the input box here. That usually creates double line feeds for some reason... :-?

ok guys another question:

how to calculate battle mechanics for wraiths?
i mean, they have not very superior stats but very hard to kill by physic weapons. how its possible?
or its just cause of they have WO=3 thats way it seems that they're strong?

(http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=lc&chd=t:40,30,0,30,40,30,30,20,50&chco=00ff00&chf=bg,s,000000&chdl=Regiment&chls=2.0,0.0,0.0&chxt=x,y&chxl=0:|MO|WS|BS|ST|TO|WO|IN|AT|LS|1:||1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10&chxs=0,ffffff|1,ffffff&chs=540x200&chg=0,10)

They have a flag "immune to physical damage". This flag works before the calculation.

so they virtually immune to any physical dmg (incl. arrows and mortair?) and only way to kill them is to use magic or make them flee?

i actually remembered i killed some of them with physical atacks when i played singleplayer years ago but im not sure.

They should be completely immune to physical damage. I tested few months ago this regiment and it's not possible to hurt them without an magic item.

what about i have magic item (like sword with fireball or stormsword) but dont use spell. will they die that way?

Wraiths can be hurt by magic swords or spell (e.g. if you have a runefang they take damage).
And they have no special flag, they have special armor.

nice answer gharby

another question: at singleplayer ive noticed necro mage best spell which seems to be  hurting through antimagic spells. is that really that strong? what about similar spells of other mages?

i can say that goblin's best spell may easily be countered with 1 magic shield (lol).

There is some chance to hit through the dispel magic, perhaps it was luck.

another question: why some untis have BO skills even they dont have any distance weapon? for example flagellants

another example is from SOTH olly post where he said that level2 units (in single player probably) have +1 to BO skill - its useless for meele regiment isnt it?

thats true alavet, but some mainly undead and monsters have BS 0

with making the 2 campaigns ive seen and memorized most of the unit stats, my first thought was that they used the BS if they had a magical item that required it, such as storm sword and banner of wrath but i dont know

how calculates battles? for example my 5 rgiments attacked 1 regiment of mummies (x1 unit)
at animation i may see that for example x1 cavalry and x2 crossbowmen attacks mummy. does it means that i will have 2 atatcks for this round with 2 crossbowmen and 1 attack with cavalry unit? and for exampel there is flagellants stay far over from mummies but still at "battle" status.

so game excactly calculates battle with animation or not?

if so, there is really no point to use more than 3 rregiments for any 1 enemy unit.

Mhh good question. How is this solved in the "real" tabletop game? Perhaps could anyone who  played it, say something.

On TT, you can only attack if you're in base contact with an enemy model. Because thats played with neat blocks whereas DO is less organised, that means you can have less clean combats in DO. Either way, only troops animated in combat will be fighting. However, you have something called Combat Resolution (CR), which determines who wins combat and forces Break tests on the loser (this is why units break from melee). CR comes from wounds, but also from ranks (and possibly outnumbering in DO though it didnt exist in 4th edition on which it is based), banners (which DO probably doesnt count), and also from hitting people in the flanks and rear (which also causes a Panic check right at the start of the round).

So your extra regiments might not be contributing attacks but they will be contributing some CR to the fight.

Which reminds me, whilst Skeleton units appear Unbreakable like they all have a Defiance Banner, in TT they actually take additional wounds from CR instead of taking Break tests, which probably explains why they seem to be cut down a lot faster than Flaggalents or a unit with Defiance Banner (made worse by their goblin-level stats). Id forgotten about this and its probably needs checking out, but if so its another reason for looking at Skeleton troop costs, because they arent comparable to the Defiance Banner.

Can't find that in the 3rd or 4th ed. core rules, but I don't have the undead army lists for those editions. Interesting rule though!

While I havn't been around for as long as since the days of 3rd or 4th WH edition (or the Dark Ages, for that matter ;) )

From what I know, that rule has been around for a very long time, but never in the core rules but instead in the army-book.
However, I never really thought about that they have implemented it in Dark Omen! I guess that that is what the flag, "racial flag specific to Skeletons"
Damn, thats good news -I have to make quite a few changes to my Campaign Remake!  ;D

/Mr Shadow

I have now proved with the help of OllyOrc that Skeletons are indeed subject to this altered version of Unbreakable. See here (http://forum.dark-omen.org/troops/skeleton-unbreakability-test-t300.0.html) for the results.

There was no Unbreakable rule in the core rules back then anyway; it was a army-specific thing back then. And yes it was in the UD book, and it has been a part of all Undead rules since at least 4th edition.

---------------

An unrelated point I brought up in the skellie test, but its worth mentioning here because it deals with how Weapon Skill stat actually works:

"Another interesting point: At this stage, people are probably looking at the difference between results for Halberds and Swordsmen and thinking “Swordsmen must suck!”. Well, let me offer something in Swordsmen defence (other than “they cost half the price of a 2nd unit of greatswords/halberds”).  Halberdiers have polarms which makes them effectively Weapon Skill 3/Strength 4, which means they are more likely to wound people, whereas Swordsmen have WS4/S3, which means they are more likely to hit in the first place. However, its not a case of ‘higher the WS, the better’; you simply only have to exceed the current enemy’s WS to get the hit bonus. So a WS6 Black Grail is no better at beating up a WS2 unit than a WS4 one! (all other factors being equal, although if you have less than half your opponents WS they get a penalty to hit, but goblins/skellies against BG and Vamps are about the only instances). Because both Halberds and Swordsmen had higher WS than Skellies, Swordsmen’s advantage didn’t count; their strength comes from fighting WS3 (they hit more) and WS4 (they stop the enemy getting the hit bonus) enemies. This just happened to be one of those times Swordsmen couldn’t play to their strengths."

That's really good news! Could you connect this to one of the less well understood racial flags (f.i. the "Racial flag specific to Skeletons" Mr Shadow mentioned)?

Does not this mean that Skellies should get a lowered points cost, as you have not calculated their value correctly since you had imperfect information at the time?

Im not sure what you're asking. Are you talking about the racial flags other than Skeletons, or about the Skellie one?

btw, is there any other stats other than WS BS ST TO WO AT IN LS ?
i mean in wh40k there is also some "save roll" for terminators for example; like to hit with usual orcs u need not only to hit with BS & get through TO, but also get throught their liek i dunno "armour"? is it the same or not?

cause for example to hit there terminators u need to roll "1" of the d6 (16%) after get through their To.
or is it the simple armour?

and also, is it possible to use 6 armour slots at DO or only 5 maximum? (i mean what will happened if i take shield with x5 slots?)

P.S. in table games all units in distance of two inches involved into the battle(and 1 inch is aprox. = wight of one corpse; please note corpses have some roudn stands" which is bigger than usual corpse)

The armor works the same, with ONE big thing : strength reduces the armor.

So, imagine you have a nice barbed horse (save 5+ or 2pts), a full plate armor (4+ or 3pts), a magic shield (5+ or 2pts), so you have an armor of 0+ ! It works like a save of 2+ ofc :P
But there's the strength. Points above 3 reduce the armor by one.
ST 1 > ok
ST 2 > ok
ST 3 > ok
ST 4 > -1 :(
ST 5 > -2
Etc.

So, your mighty knight is hit and wound by a skeleton (ST 3), so he has 16% of losing one point of life (even with a 0+).
But if he's on the path of a dragon (ST 6), he loses 3 points of armor, so he only as a 3+ (33% of losing an hp).

is this clear ? ;)


Btw I'm not speaking of ward save and regeneration, because they're none in DO (well the trolls have no special tag right ?)

so Kypper, may you pelase calculate some chances to hit in battle of Treeman vs Black Grail? with diff. armour slots (default armor is 2) i just interested, cause in that case treeman looks like a hell machince of death
and i guess 6 armour then is working isnt it?

(http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=lc&chd=t:60,80,30,60,70,60,20,40,90&chco=00ff00&chf=bg,s,000000&chdl=Regiment&chls=2.0,0.0,0.0&chxt=x,y&chxl=0:|MO|WS|BS|ST|TO|WO|IN|AT|LS|1:||1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10&chxs=0,ffffff|1,ffffff&chs=540x200&chg=0,10)

(http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=lc&chd=t:40,60,40,40,30,20,50,20,100&chco=00ff00&chf=bg,s,000000&chdl=Regiment&chls=2.0,0.0,0.0&chxt=x,y&chxl=0:|MO|WS|BS|ST|TO|WO|IN|AT|LS|1:||1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10&chxs=0,ffffff|1,ffffff&chs=540x200&chg=0,10)

p.s. and what is BS skill form meele units please advice?
p.p.s. am i got right that in wh49k ST doesnt reduces armour?

thanks!

Hard to say but I'm trying.
Remember that I'm a v6-v7 Wh player, not a v4 old guy. ;D

So your big tree :
WS8, ST6, A4.

And the knights :
WS6, TO3 (lol), WO2, with 6 points of armor (1+ !)

Let's do it for one attack.
WS8 against WS6, that's 2/3 to hit.
ST6 against TO3, that's 5/6 to wound.
ST6, it's 3 points above 3, so the armor got change in a poor  4+ (a 1/2 protection).
(2/3) x (5/6) x (1/2) = 10 / 36 = 5 / 18 ~= 28%
You have 4 attacks, so you should do an average... 1,1 wounds in one round.
But beware ! The knights have WO2, you need to do 2 wounds to the regiment to kill one guy.
If you read my wall-of-text about the skeletons, you maybe see it's a little more complicated:
The treeman charge and kill one knight. The knights don't have the strength bonus thanks to their lances, and didn't hurt him. It's a 1-1 (they are legion in greater number than the 'lone treeman). They only lose half a knight.
But what if the treeman charge in the rear and, with a little luck, does 2 wounds (one knight) ? He wins the fight by 3-1, so another knight is (really) dead !
1 wound versus 4 wounds... Now do your own maths boy :D

Does nothing. Like the attacks for a canon :P

EDIT : forgot one line.
Yep. But it's somewhat different in Wh40k. That's not the subject btw :p

The Weapon SKill of a cannon can result in interesting close combat battles. Like mortar crews defeating Greatswords.

Nope ! The cannon has is own caracs ! ;) (with a lot of 0)
It's something like TO7 WO3.

so why its diffirient from unit to unit? dont =get it.
also some1 said that on second level all units gets BS+1
why? how its usable at all?

p.s. and i also noticed some day u said that there is additional +1 rolsl or w/e when one unit outclass another (in skeleton example) is it something about number of sculs near the unit  or what? if so, then if level up gives additional scull it makes sense...


pps and what is regenration excatly does?

Well well well...
Warhammer is a world much more complicated than DO. A "great sword" boy have a BS3, but no bow. It's useless, but it's still in the game.
Zombies have a BS of 0 because they can't use these weapons (the rotting brains don't help to think and aim :P )
The BS+1 bonus was only for the ballistic regiments, the regular regiments got WS+1 (at least in the Horned Rat).

NO. You will never throw the great swords, kid :P

It's not an additionnal roll, it's a point in the resolution of the fights. I dunno how the developpers did it work in the game, but it looks kinda obvious that only the people fighting count.

'Don't care. As I said, I don't think there is this capacity in DO.
Trolls sucks.

4th ed?! Heresy! 3rd ed is the only real WFB version! :D

I wonder, if anything from the 1st ed still exists? Books/Paper anything where this rules are defined...

You got me ;D

I have all Rule Books from 2nd 1984 to 5th 1998

and Dark Omen is 4th as 3rd has completely different Stats.

3rd edition Skeleton Warriors have a WS of 33 etc..

4th Edition Undead stats are indentical to Dark Omen.



****UPDATE****

The common Troops of Dark Omen and 3rd Edition

do indeed share the same Stats.

:)

I have also compared Shadow of the Horned Rat Stats

and they are also 4th Edition (1992) Stats. I closely examined

common Units to Dark Omen and SOTHR, such as Wood Elf

Archers, Empire Greatswords, Treeman, Orc Boyz and Orc Biguns

and they also share 4th Edition identical Stats.


Now that I own both 4th Edition (1993) and 5th Edition (1996)

Skaven Books, thier Stats don't alter from 4th to 5th editions either.

Which is why they are grouped as 4th/5th as they share same stats

but introduce new Magic (Magic Boxset 1996 5th Edition) and introduce new

stuff, as well as Army Books for Lizardmen and Dogs of War and even Vampire Counts (1999),

the last 5th Edition Book.


(If we ever want to add these ourselves, then the Books provide the perfect Stats lists for us)
 
http://forum.dark-omen.org/tavern/table-top-rule-books-on-ebay-t367.0.html (http://forum.dark-omen.org/tavern/table-top-rule-books-on-ebay-t367.0.html)

:)

Typo? They have WS 3 iirc. 3rd ed uses the same 1--10 stats system as all WHFB editions.

I was incorrectly quoting the Warhammer Fantasy Role play book 1986

and confusing it with the Warhammer Fantasy Battle Book 1987.

Having researched more, I now know the Big difference and can confirm

Skeleton Warriors have WS 2 which is indeed the same as Dark Omen.

Thank You

:)

http://forum.dark-omen.org/tavern/table-top-rule-books-on-ebay-t367.0.html (http://forum.dark-omen.org/tavern/table-top-rule-books-on-ebay-t367.0.html)

i have some table book in Russian (dont know # of edition) but after playing with whfreak we found an interesting concept:

i had UD army with wraights, and he was playing orcs (with biguns  lvl1+ banner of defiance)

for some reasons i attacked his biguns with my wraights and prepaired to see how they will loose w/o dealing any damage. also after few rounds i attacked biguns with my ghouls just as support.

then after few other cycles ive noticed that my wraights died which made me at OMG?!?? mode. there wasnt any sneak attack on the wraights cause i routed every other regiment near biguns, so they didnt fleed cause of attack from the flank/roar.

but it brings up absolutely new concept for people that didnt familliar with table rules.
it possible that wraights will run away (and insta-die) when they fighting another standard (w/o magic sword or whatever) regiment WITHOUT taking any loses!

does any1 know how excatly combat resolution implemented for DO?

i see 2 main reasons how it was possible that my wraights fleed and died w/o taking any wounds:
before that let me introduce some rough rules of combat resolution ive seen at my book:
-each round every fighting armies (at one place) should decide which part of army is "loosing" and then looser have to go through CR [combat resolution] check vs his LS. to undestand which army is a "loser" its need to be checked for CR.
each army gains some points while battleing, and army with less points will be a loser (and diffirience between "points" will be added to the difficuilty roll for the CR)
points might be obtained:
1) wounds per round. every wound per rounds = 1 point (max 5)
2) ranks of regiment. if regiment have more than 2 rows (1row=4 units), each additional row will give 1 point
3) if regiment have a banner it have +1 point (doesnt specified is banner is magic or usual??)
4) there might be a "general banner" which also gives +1 point to armies in 20' near the battle
5) +1 point for armies uphill
6) +1 point for charing from the flank, +2 points from charginf from the roar
7) ??? anything else???
i dont know how many of these points actually using at DO, but 1st and 6th one definately used

this CR is calculating between ?two most powerfull regiments? (if there more battle than 1vs1) and ?each? regiment from the loosing side should process LS check vs ?d12?+CR diffirence

so in my situation there might be two options:
1) either wraights failed CR since there was too many ghouls dead near them and thus CR was bad and wraights had to go LS check and failed
2) maybe its possible that wraights will flee in battle 1v1 vs biguns with Banner, because if the will'nt deal any wounds their combat resoultion would be:
0 points vs 3 points(+2 points since of 16 biguns=4rows; +1 from banner)
if thats true it means that Wraights have to deal 3 wounds (kill 3 biguns) every cycle, otherwise they have to go through CR check and if they fail they will insta die.

if 1) is true then my advice is: never involve other regiment in fight for your wights when you're battleing vs unbreakable units - it might cause YOUR wraights die
if 2) is true then my advice is: WRAIGHTS SUCK! dont use them vs unbreakable monsters.

p.s. as for wraights i personally will'nt use them vs unbreabale units anyway, since its much more like a cavalry unit which need to be aimed firstly to the weak-medium str. units. tasks for this unit is to take as many armies as he can, as while he is blocked by unbreakable units its impossible to use his whole potential.

p.p.s. as for "regeneration" issue: as it stated at my book, every unit with regeneration get additional dice roll which may allow to avodi soem damage. if puinch get through WO, then get through TO and finally get through Armour then there will be additioanl roll (?4?+ on d6, which means 50% that unit willnt take damage).

all ?" "? statements means that i'm not sure in that but its something like that

Very interesting alavet

I would agree in any case if this rule is implemented in Dark Omen or not that Wraiths are no good vs strong enemies, better to use them to clear out weak enemies to prevent being flanked but they are not strong enough to be the main unit.

Wights, Mummies and BGK are the main troops for the undead

Wraiths and skeleton cavalry have to win the fight fast or they are doomed as they are too weak to fight a long fight

Gharby, is it possible to allow more than 10 regiments take in the game from one side?

Yes, set all regiments to auto deploy. This allows to have more then 10 regiments on the map.
Big Problem: You can't move them around during the deployment time so they are at a fixed position (to change the pos you have to edit the BTB file :/)

Hello!
Does anyone know what dice system is used for rolls in original games (SOTHR and DO)?
As regiments stats and some other mechanics are taken from tabletop rules I presume it is supposed to be D6 system but still not 100% sure.

P.S.
sorry for necro-post

Always love discussing the engine, so yes it uses a single six sided dice. For instance, a player has to roll a five or a six for an Armour Save etc.

http://forum.dark-omen.org/singleplayer/sothr-game-mechanics-stats-t273.0.html (http://forum.dark-omen.org/singleplayer/sothr-game-mechanics-stats-t273.0.html)

:)

A short remark on Chariot game mechanics, not sure whether it was noted before.
When an enemy chariot charges into my unit, the unit sometimes (but not always) shouts "We are under fire" as if enemy archers shoot at it.
Quite likely, this is the way chariot mechanics are implemented in DO: At times, it kills up to 4-5 units a second after it enters close combat.

Good to know, thanks

:)

To save yourself a lot of clicking on the strength button you can just set a macro.  I use X-mouse Button Control to just have it repeatedly press "s" as long as mouse4 is pressed.
Using the same software to set mouse4 and mouse5 to copy and paste in Windows is also amazing.

Sorry but to me that would detract from a key fun feature of the game, trying to micro manage whilst deciding to also boost at the same time is a classic challenge. Each to their own for Single player but I trust you wouldn't unfairly use it during a multiplayer game. Some of my best victories have left me exhausted at the end of a furious game boosting my troops throughout. Although it's well known to use a macro, I will have to sadly delete your post to maintain the purity of Dark Omen, no offence intended.

:)