Warhammer Dark Omen Forum

This is the 5000/15 suggestions thread. Please post all your ideas. I/We will add them to the list.

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Empire

Name	Level	Points
Mercenary Crossbowmen	Level 1	2
Imperial Cannon	Level 1	3
Bright Wizard	Level 1	2
Imperial Halberdiers	Level 1	1
Imperial Bowmen	Level 1	2
Flagellants	Level 1	3
Imperial Mortar	Level 1	3
Mercenary Ogres	Level 1	2
Mercenary Swordsmen	Level 1	2
Imperial Greatswords	Level 1	1
Ice Mage	Level 1	2
Mercenary Cavalry	Level 1	3
Pistoliers	Level 1	3
Knights of the Realm	Level 1	3
Dwarf Warriors	Level 1	2
Wood Elf Glade Guards	Level 1	2
Wood Elf Archers	Level 1	4
Treeman	Level 1	4

---

Greenskins

Name	Level	Points
Night Goblin Archers	Level 1	1
Night Goblins	Level 1	1
Gigantic Spider	Level 1	2
Giant Scorpion	Level 1	1
Night Goblin Shaman	Level 1	1
Orc Arrer Boyz	Level 1	1
Orc Boar Boyz	Level 1	2
Orc Boyz	Level 1	1
Orc Big'uns	Level 1	2
Orc Bolt Thrower	Level 1	3
Orc Rock Lobber	Level 1	4
Orc Shaman	Level 1	2
Troll	Level 1	2
Night Goblin Archers With Fanatics	Level 1	2
Night Goblins With Fanatics	Level 1	2

---

Undead

Name	Level	Points
Vampire	Level 1	3
Ghouls	Level 1	1
Mummies	Level 1	6
Necromancer	Level 1	2
Screaming Skull Catapult	Level 1	3
Skeleton Archers	Level 1	2
Skeleton Horsemen	Level 1	4
Skeleton Warriors	Level 1	2
Black Grail	Level 1	10
Wights	Level 1	3
Wraiths	Level 1	8
Zombies	Level 1	1

---

Items

Name	Points
Horn of Urgok	4
Banner of Wrath	3
Others	1

i dunno, undead armies seems to be too expensive by points.
maybe we need to lower down cost of some ud troops?

i think changing Skeleton Horsemen   Level 1   4 to 3 points would be nice
and i also think maybe for zombies we need 0,5 point (why not?)
price between ghouls and zombies not big but power of zombies much less.

also what about allowance of 1 magic item "for free" for any army? (exept horn and banner obv)

Just some initial Ideas....

I would Alter:-

Restrictions = Only 2 of Same Unit Type, Unless Super Unit then only 1 allowed like BGK and Artillary etc.

Items
Name Points
Horn of Urgok 6
Banner of Wrath 4
Others 1


Empire

Mercenary Crossbowmen Level 1 3 maybe 4

Since Wood Elf Archers Level 1 4


After playing 5000/15 I have found the Empire to be the Toughest Race

as they have lots of Cheap Infantry Units, so could we consider changes to Empire Infantry.



All Mages should increase in Points from 2 to 3, although Vamp should be 4 as tougher in Melee'


Pistoliers should be 4 since they are normal Cav =3 but with Guns and more Usefull.




Greenskins


Shamens (Mages all set to 3 and Vamp to 4)

Orc Big'uns set to 3 (depending on 2 unit max ,if so then stay at 2)

Orc Arrer Boyz to 3 (depending on 2 unit max ,if so then stay at 2)





Undead

Vampire  = 4

Ghouls = 2

Necromancer = 3

Skeleton Archers = 3 if not 4 (depending on 2 unit max)


:)

Good idea with this thread Bembelimen



I agree that empire are strong but that is mainly in my mind due to the facts that they are easier to play and so often used alot in deciding games. Not something that is easily changed.
Orcs are weaker because you need to field as many units as possible because they have suffer from lack in leadership compared to empire units.
Undead are weaker because they are expensive and will have less units than empire and orc. undead units are either fearless or will be destroyed if routed. Skeletons have a weak WS and will suffer heavily in combat if they fail to route the enemy they also easily fall victim to archers, wights, wraiths & mummies are either too expensive to be the base of an army or too unreliable.


I would suggest


Restrict number of same unit type, by increasing cost after 2 for basic units like skeleton/ghouls/greats/halbar/boys/gob like in improved 3000/10 rules by mikademus and increase after 1 for all advanced units like cavalry/bigguns/wights
Only 1 mage and artillery per army

Basic Units
Greatswords/Halbardeers (count as one type or 2 of same will be 4 by using both types)
Orc Boyz
Night Goblins
Ghouls
Skeleton Warriors
Zombies

Advanced Units
Crossbows
Boar Boys
Wights
and so on

Items:
Horn of Urgok 8 pts (atleast maybe more to make the use of it a challenge and not a walk in the park)
Banner of Wrath 4
others 1

Empire
Pistoleers 4


Greenskin
Orc Arrer boyz 2


Undead
Skeleton Cavalry 3
2xZombies 1

i dont get it. why you want to prevent mass arimes? like cant you crash skeleton hordes or what?
i may udnerstand of reducing max. q-ty of archers by 2, but its close...

as for mages its absurd - noone will ever have 2 mages at once, cause mana points distributed in same q-ty and you usually have it all spended anyway. if empire would use both fire and ice mages i think it'd be very nice to see, and i actually want to see how good player will take advantage of it.

my additional thoughts:
1) i dont like idea of increasing ud archers for 4. its ridicilous for me. 3 as max, but i think 2 is good enough still. maybe 2.5?

2) i want to use lvl2 armies. why not? i think there is nothing wrong from using lvl2 armies, as long as it be double cost at points. you wouldnt be able to use lvl2 black grails anyway, and anything else not really imbalanced as well.

and mages in this case would have much more power, at lvl1 i think they really suck. maybe level up for orc mage should cost less point, cause his spells really weak.

3) i forgot what i wanted to say but hopefully add later.

Welll im pretty much saying the same stuff as in Februarys toruney topic:

Arties:
Horn 7 or 8

Undead:
Skeleton Calvalry-----3  (4 is way too much considering their melee power)
Mummies-----5  (they are one of the slowest unit in the game, and can be kited by any ranged unit, not worth of 6 points because of that big weakness)
Zombies----0.5  (the worst unit in game)
Wights-----3


Greenskins:
Orc Arrer Boyz---2  (1 is too low considering they are ranged and in melee as strong as orc boyz)
Troll-----1  (the only units they can win are artillery,mages IF troll doesent get hit or resists magic. They also win scorpions/spiders ~60% of time)
Orc Rock Lobber-----3

Empire:
Pistoliers-----3.5


I don't think we have to go to 3000/10 rules and increase the cost after the first unit for others of the same type. It is very hard if not impossible to balance
unit costs, so doing that only because of balance is pointless. Im 100% sure that after each tourney(no matter what rules we use)people will find something unbalanced, and make suggestions
to change that. Increasing the cost for 2nd and 3rd unit would only mean making some armies useless(like armies with lots of ranged regiments)reducing the types of armies
you could face on the battlefield. But I know it works much better for 3000/10, since battles are much smaller scale.

i dont want to prevent mass armies but we need a balance, 5000gc will buy you very different armies with the 3 races and the races need to be able to match eachother


I dont exspect many to use 2 mages but as the issue with teleporting mages occur after each tournament then i doubt more dodging mages is needed. it was more intented for artillery


The introduction of lvl 2 units would totally disrupt the balance that the 5000/15 rules are spose to create, by all means use the rules you feel free in one-on-one battles but for tournaments a level of equal chance is necessary


Again lvl 2 mages with ashur and wand of jet would cost only 4 pts but would be very powerful compared to lvl 1 regiments



// I reformated the quotes to make it more readable, I hope this is ok -- bembelimen

give me example of army which seems to be imbalanced for you for some reasons

afaik there is a rule which prevent mages to teleport if they stay alone (when all troops dead). i think its reasonable and pretty enough move to solve this teleport issue.
as for artilerry - i hvnt faced with much power of them but maybe its reasonable

again, give me example of army which seems to be imbalanced for you for some reasons

totally agree. i fogot to say that i think increasing cost of mages is necessary. maybe like 2.5; or 2>6 in that case..

The 5000/15 is aimed at lvl 1 units, firstly with only 5000gc buying units higher than lvl 2 takes a serious drain on the 5000gc, the dwarf warriors lvl 1 cost 525 & 2 pts, lvl 2 cost 1050gc, what would the pts cost be in this case? 3? the dwarfs now cost 1/5 of the gold.
Flagellants lvl 1 cost 375gc & 3 pts, but flagelants only have lvl 3, now by allowing the dwarf warriors to cost 3 at lvl 2, the Flagellants has to cost 5 pts at lvl 3 but only 1440gc.
Imperial Greatswords at lvl 1 cost 435gc & 1 pts, at lvl 4 3480gc & 4 pts.
Glade Guards at lvl 1 cost 525gc & 2 pts, at lvl 4 4200gc & 5 pts
Grungebringer Cavalry cost more than 5000gc so they are out at higher level.

Undead who already have smaller armies due to the higher cost they have would not be able to use higher lvl units as their best units already has a heavy cost.


Skeleton Warriors cost 450gc & 2 pts, lvl 2 900gc & 3 pts, lvl 4 3600gc & 5 pts
Mummies cost 1200gc & 6pts, lvl 2 2400gc & 7pts, lvl 3 4800gc & 8 pts
Wrights cost 1050gc & 3 pts, lvl 3 4200gc & 5pts
Black Grail and Wraiths are both at high cost and are only just affordable at with lvl 1


Using more than 1000gc on one unit in 5000/15 is normally all you can afford because you could run into an orc army with 10 units and then having only 5-6  units is dangerous, we would see an extensive use of the few low level units suitable for 5000/15.
The system of higher level units im sure would work well in 9000/30 or just 9000 no limit, but 5000/15 does not have enough money and points to give it full credit. 

as someone said (as example), there is no point to restrict Horn from the game if its imbalanced, solution is to make this cost rather high. so why we cant apply identical concept for lvl2 units? if you dont see point to use them cause such army would be useless, why you dont want to try other players to test it? (and loose if you're right). i think lvl2 opens up more tactics which is only better to the game.
and about your example:
- why not to double up buying points for lvl2 forces? i really think that lvl2 troop is better than 2 similar lvl1 troops in some cases (if you manage to rule them nice). as for some gap between lvl1 and lvl3 (as you said, flagellants) - well why not make points to buy multiply to 3 in that case? and if you arent able to buy it for 15 points (as example grails lvl2 would cost 20 poitns which not apply to 15/5000) then its natural restriction.

p.s. i actually think we strongly need add to multiplayer battles some other forces: open up chariots for UD and add possibility to buy every level of each unit (for example flagellants lvl2). its a question for modding guys though.

 
for this issue - every standard lvl2 units able to have 2 artifact slots (correct me if i wrong) so it may pretty much help in hard battles like agaisnt 10 armies.

There is no problem with testing out a new rule set not at all feel free
but i think what your tryn to suggest is more a totally re-made ruleset based on 5000/15 or 9000/30
not a few simpler upgrades that can be incorporated with the experience already gained from the monthly tournaments, thats what i was suggesting. Especially if you want to mod the original files, as you say with more levels for all units. It sounds cool dont get me wrong but its also a longterm change that might not be optional atm but when it is then ofcz a new ruleset that goes into more depth would be needed.
I think altho im not 100% that chariots are too unstable in multiplayer to be added atm but ask ghabry and mikademus for details on that one.

Some Great Points above, ideal thoughts to Enhance Game Play.

I think we all want to keep 3k and 5k  Lv 1 Battles Small,

Great for new members and different Battles,

Compared with 7k and 9k Lv 2 where we all want the Large Battles.

With possible Additional Units.


:)

Also please....Pick 6 of the Fairest Maps. 


http://forum.dark-omen.org/maps/all-maps-t155.0.html (http://forum.dark-omen.org/maps/all-maps-t155.0.html)

Yes, there is no point allowing people to use higher level creatures than 1. It would only cause more balance problems and every winning army would have level 2 mage with ashur+jet.

EDIT:regiments not creatures! Sorry I have been playing dungeon keeper 2 too much :P

i agree general maximus  ;) & Olly

i forgot there is 7000gc armies too lol too cought up in 3000 and 5000

Flaks 5000/15 suggestion

Unit                       cost for 1st to 3rd unit

Crossbowmen                   2/3/3
Imperial Cannon                3/4/5
Bright Wizard                    2/3/4
Halbardiers                       1/2/2
Bowmen                          2/3/3
Flagellants                       3/3/4
Mortar                            3/4/5
Ogres                             2/2/3
Swordsmen                      2/2/3
Greatswords                    1/2/2
Ice Mage                         2/3/4
Cavalry                           3/3/4
Pistoleers                        4/5/6
Knights of the Realm          3/3/4
Dwarf Warriors                 2/2/3
Glade Guards                   2/3/3
Wood Elf Archers              4/5/6
Treeman                         4/4/5


Goblin Archers                  1/1/2
Goblins                            1/1/1
Spider                             2/2/3
Scorpion                         1/2/3
Goblin Shaman                  1/2/3
Orc Arrers                       2/2/3
Orc Boars                        2/2/3
Orc Boyz                         1/1/2
Orc Big'uns                      2/2/3
Orc Bolt Thrower               3/3/4
Orc Rock Lobber               4/5/6
Troll                                1/2/3
Goblin Archer w.Fanatic     2/3/3
Goblin w.Fanatic               2/2/3


Vampire                           3/4/5
Ghouls                             1/1/2
Mummies                          5/6
Necromancer                    2/3/4
Scull Catapult                   3/4/5
Skeleton Archers               2/2/3
Skeleton Horsemen            3/3/4
Skeleton Warriors              2/2/3
Black Grail                        10
Wights                            3/3/4
Wraiths                           7/8
Zombies                          ½/1/1 (2 zombies first must be purchased together and cost ½ each)


Items

Horn of Urgok                    10 pts (its better than grail knights in my opinion so it needs to be high to still present a challenge)
Banner of Wrath                4 pts
others                              1pts

ok my notes
i generally dont like idea of increasment points in regiments untill they reach q-ty:2
yeah i think 3rd regiment should cost more possibly |(but depending of the crowd, for example zombies useless anyway)

about mages - i think we just need a rule to set mages to go in close combat if there is only mages left at any side (no matter how many mages u have). i dont think that teleporting of mages have any tactial interest and "right for live" cause dark omen is wargame and not RPG.

Unit                       cost for 1st to 3rd unit

Crossbowmen                   2/3/3 - maybe ok
Imperial Cannon                3/4/5 - i suggest 3/3/3 - i dont see any real power in 3 canons or w/e
Bright Wizard                    2/3/4 - i hate it.
Halbardiers                       1/2/2 - maybe ok
Bowmen                          2/3/3 - maybe ok
Flagellants                       3/3/4 - like it
Mortar                            3/4/5 - i suggest 3/4/4
Ogres                             2/2/3 - like it
Swordsmen                      2/2/3 - like it
Greatswords                    1/2/2 - maybe ok
Ice Mage                         2/3/4 - i hate it.
Cavalry                           3/3/4 - like it
Pistoleers                        4/5/6 - 4/5/5 imo. you wouldnt be ably to contraol 3 units and if yo ureally able to then you desreve to win

Knights of the Realm          3/3/4 - like it
Dwarf Warriors                 2/2/3- like it
Glade Guards                   2/3/3 - i dunno
Wood Elf Archers              4/5/6 - 4/5/5 reasons the same as pistoleter
Treeman                         4/4/5 - like it


Goblin Archers                  1/2/2 - they really suck so i think 1/1/2 would be enough
Goblins                            1/1/1 - ok
Spider                             2/2/3 - 2/2/2 - spiders so fragile unit that u dont need to icnrease cost
Scorpion                         1/2/3 - 1-2-2 seems ok
Goblin Shaman                  1/2/3 - hate it for reasons above
Orc Arrers                       2/2/3 - ok
Orc Boars                        2/2/3 - ok
Orc Boyz                         1/1/2 - ok
Orc Big'uns                      2/2/3 - ok
Orc Bolt Thrower               3/3/4 -ok
Orc Rock Lobber               4/5/6 - 4/5/5/
Troll                                1/2/3 - 1/2/2/
Goblin Archer w.Fanatic     2/3/3 - 2/2/2/ imo. they're pretty much useless
Goblin w.Fanatic               2/2/3 - 2/2/2/ imo. they're pretty much useless


Vampire                           3/4/5 -hate
Ghouls                             1/1/2 -ok
Mummies                          5/6 - ok vbut 6/6 also not bad actually
Necromancer                    2/3/4 - hate
Scull Catapult                   3/4/5 -3/4/4/ ok
Skeleton Archers               2/2/3 -ok
Skeleton Horsemen            3/3/4 - ok
Skeleton Warriors              2/2/3 - ok
Black Grail                        10 -ok
Wights                            3/3/4 -ok
Wraiths                           7/8 - ok
Zombies                          ½/1/1 (2 zombies first must be purchased together and cost ½ each) - ok but i prefer ½/½/1


Items

Horn of Urgok                    10 pts (its better than grail knights in my opinion so it needs to be high to still present a challenge) - 9 imo. but 10 also ok
Banner of Wrath                3 pts - ok
others                              1pts - ok

Great Lists!

I agree with nearly everything and would only suggest:

If Mage Last Unit must engage Hand to Hand.

Horn to be 8 points to teach us how Anti Magic Negates the Effects

Banner of Wrath to be 4points

Orc Shamen not Listed and all Mages to 3 instead of 2 and Goblin Shamen to 2 not 1

Cannon 3/3/3

Orgres 3/3/4 Given the Banner of Defiance these are the Empire's strongest hand to Hand Units.

Pistoliers I agree 4/5/6

Wood Elf archers 4/5/6  same again

Spider 2/2/3  as causes Fear and 3 of them running at you..

Zombies.. hehe yeah anything to make them appealing.



Good Work!

:)



and can we list maps, im thinking Road to Bogenhafen, Empire, Black Pyramids

The Road to Moussilon  but need 2 more good ones.


http://forum.dark-omen.org/maps/all-maps-t155.0.html (http://forum.dark-omen.org/maps/all-maps-t155.0.html)

Ghabry Suggested Border Bounties, that seemed a Favourite from Last Tournament.

Perhaps Return to Axebite Pass could be the 6th?

These are the first 6 most Equal and Fair Maps, as the rest are Defend /Attack Bias,

Ideal for Future DOST/Scenario based Tournaments.


:)

ok i actually like this new ruleset http://wiki.dark-omen.org/index.php?title=DO/Rules/5000/15/Point_list&oldid=2174 but have few thoughts:
Screaming Skull Catapult  Level 1  3  3  4   why u increase it in cost that much? mayeb 3 will be ok as well? it misses so often...
Wights  Level 1  2  3  4  - maybe its a good thin - illl try to use them more this time, but 2 seems too cheap for me... maybe ok tho

Zombies  Level 1  1  0  1  really like how u solved it.
from other hand i think we need to allow get even more zombies (not 3 max). its funny, after all? :)

i think the 5k rules are now well balanced, i agree almost all of it

i think we've nailed it ;D

especially happy with the buy 2 get 1 for free zombies lol

How do you mean this? At the moment it is 3. If you buy two of them, you have to "pay" 6 points. The suggestions were "3/4/5" or "3/4/4" now it's "3/3/4" to make it more playable. Or did i missunderstand you?


I don't think, that they're much stronger than Skeleton Warriors (cause they will die, if they have to flee), so only the 2nd and 3rd is more expensive.

you got me right. but after your new ruleset i actually re-evualted and really think that mass artilerry doesnt work well. and for other artiellry you actually decreased cost for 3rd unit, but just for screaming catapults yo uactualluy icnreased it. so well we may remain rules the same (cause frankly speaking i dont ever think that some1 wish to use 3 catapults ever) but if i get your logic we need to make it 3/3/3 or 3/3/2.

thats nice point; maybe im just on impression of their power at singleplayer - one of the toughtest unit for me, except mummies and grail. even dead cavalry was weaker, lol.

talking of the actual stats then most undead are as weak as goblins but their fight to the death ability combined with causing fear is what makes them strong

Wouldn't Flak's suggestion be compatible with Alabet's objections above? Since unit prices climbs with additional units, you could have armies of only the same unit but it would be increasingly expensive (thus obey the law of decreasing returns).

ive been reviewing unit stats for empire units and Grungebringer Infantry needs to be set to 1/2/2 as they are the same as halbardiers and greatswords, the only differnce between these 3 is the weaponry, swordmen have basic hand weapon.

ok i suggest to put your thoughts about whole balance there
the latest rules link i have is http://wiki.dark-omen.org/do/DO/Rules/5000/15 (http://wiki.dark-omen.org/do/DO/Rules/5000/15)

my suggestions:

- for empire/orcs artilerry
decrease in cost of artillery for third unit. it should go 4/4/3 if you are against it please play against me with 3 mortairs/lobbers (which will cost you 13points and 1 point for regiment) 

- for necro artillery:
Screaming Skull Catapult  Level 1  3  4  4 
i think it should be changed to 3/3/3 cause they're REALLY SLOW in shooting and really NON ACURATE at shooting.

- for elven archers:
you might say that cause of my logic we should decrease elves to 4/4/3 but 4/5/6 really better cause elves may:
1)move
2)fight not so bad in close battles
3)come back after retreat

- for troll
i see that it chanegd for 2pts in about december but i dont see any reason why. i think even zombies may kill him?

I am pretty satisfied with the rules, i think that trolls should stay at 2 pts because unlike scorpions and spiders they regenerate and have magic resistance, if any spiders should be 1

Swordsmen/Greatswords/Halbardiers are of 100% equal strength so they are 1 as they should be

I also finally feel that undead have been balanced to match the orc hordes and the strong empire units

as for artillery and mages i think the cost is right

First to say: I'm currently busy with university stuff, so the changes could be slow down. Sorry for that.

Btt:

Cause they cause fear, are magic-resistant and regenerate. (One other reason was: some player used a troll only army....)

// merged topics (if that was wrong, contact me)

Guys, first of all, congrats for the good work  ;) , and tx for make it ready for the last tourny.

Now, since almost two months ago i'm testing DO a lot with a friend of mine, for a reason well know to Bemb obviously but to be announce to everyone on the next weeks. In this experience i realize of something that my lazyness made me avoid before; even if one have years of playing and a very well perfomance in general, at the time of make a sure proposition, it must be have been hard tested before, 'cause no matter what we read or assume, the facts on the battlefield are usually diferents that we have thougt. Few Examples:

- Ogres: as we all known, they don't cause fear  :(. But with the Olly discovering of the combo Ogres+Banner of Defiance  :o, they are enough fearsome haha  ;D.

- Flagellants: i think this is the most underestimeted unit for the players and in the rules  :(; well managed and without using them like another infantry troop, they are devastating, and confront 3 units of this troop supported by another units, it's a nightmare.

- Spiders & Scorpions: On the papers, the Spider is more expensive, in theory for have almost the same power of the Scorpion plus the 360 vision; on the battle they almost don't cause the fear that we buy and in the melee they totally suck  :P. On the other hand we have the Scorpy  :D, more cheaper than they comrade; on the battlefield, they almost always cause fear on the unit affected by this effect, in theory due to his Terror skill, but let's just said like Ghabry or Mika in the Hedit: "they do a lot of fear" (i will put my Terror opinion and tests soon in another "Just Testing" post  ;)). and if they charge from one side or the rear, wich is something more easy to do with a single unit, they are even more chances of success  8). And in the melee they area good opponent having see one Scorp deal with 5 flagellants once  :o.

-Dwarfs: On the market they sold us that they are though, almost unbreakables, and fight well. Well it's hard to me said this since i love the Dwarfs of the WF World  :'(, but on this battlefield, they suck, they stink, they are almost as useless as the Mercenary Infantry, who by the way is much more ineffective than the Alberdiers or the Greatswords. I don't have memory of one battle in wich they have a decent performance  :'(.
 
After this prologue i will put my humble collaboration to the discussion  :D, but please don't thing wrong, i'ts not that i have tha final truth  :-X, just putting it in an Alavet  ;) tone: "please, if u don't think it's ok, then play at least 3 times with the objective of test the matter, and then u will have an argument":

GOOD ONES

- Flagellants: 3/3/4
- Dwarfs: 1/2/2
- Glade Guard: 3/3/4


GREEN ONES

- Spider: 1/1/2
- Scorpion: 2/2/3
- Boar Riders: 2/3/3
- Big'uns: 2/2/3
- Orc Shaman: 2/2/3


DEAD ONES

- Skeleton Archers: 1/2/4
- Skeleton Warriors: 1/2/3
- Skeleton Horsemen: 2/4/4
- Black Grial: still testing and experimenting


Horn of Urgok: 6
Banner of Defiance: 2

Ok, thats all folks, wait your opinions about this, and again great work, bye  :).

ok tx for the input; my thoughts


GOOD ONES

- Flagellants: 3/3/4 - oki
- Dwarfs: 1/2/2 -oki
- Glade Guard: 3/3/4 - why? i never seen them any real good, and look for the stats:
(http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=lc&chd=t:40,40,40,40,30,10,40,20,80|40,40,30,30,30,10,30,10,70&chco=ff0000,00ff00&chf=bg,s,000000&chdl=Leader|Regiment&chls=2.0,0.0,0.0&chxt=x,y&chxl=0:|MO|WS|BS|ST|TO|WO|IN|AT|LS|1:||1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10&chxs=0,ffffff|1,ffffff&chs=540x200&chg=0,10) - swordmen (1pts)
(http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=lc&chd=t:50,40,40,30,30,10,60,10,80&chco=00ff00&chf=bg,s,000000&chdl=Regiment&chls=2.0,0.0,0.0&chxt=x,y&chxl=0:|MO|WS|BS|ST|TO|WO|IN|AT|LS|1:||1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10&chxs=0,ffffff|1,ffffff&chs=540x200&chg=0,10) - glade
i think 2/2(3)/3(4) is oki

GREEN ONES

- Spider: 1/1/2 -oki
- Scorpion: 2/2/3 - oki
- Boar Riders: 2/3/3 - i actually dont think they any real better than biguns (see graphs) from otehr way they're litlle faster, so...dunno maybe ok maybe not
- Big'uns: 2/2/3 - oki just cause its orcs. maybe 2/3/3 is better? i mean these guys really strong one and they actually deserve /3/ for second regiment but other orcs regiment so weak so we make it /2/ as a compenastion?
- Orc Shaman: 2/2/3 - i dont agree. 2/2/2 as minimum or even 2/2/1. how will you use your shamans? i dont get it please eleborate. i actually want it to be 2/1/1/


DEAD ONES

- Skeleton Archers: 1/2/4 - cant comment i never used them (lol)
- Skeleton Warriors: 1/2/3 - i like it actually. maybe its better to make it 2/1/3? i mean they're stronger than ghouls cause they fearless, and most players buys ghouls just as a meat when you have "free" 1-2 points, and since skeletons better than ghouls (but not very much) we may prevent it by 2/1/3
- Skeleton Horsemen: 2/4/4 - dunno, these horsemen really weak in the battle but from other way they cause fear pretty much and fast cavalry... 2/4/4 i actually like it, cause i rarely use ud cavalry for 3 points - too expensive
- Black Grial: still testing and experimenting - maybe 9? or even 8? just dont sure that grail now able to kill 5 regiments alone (if they attack grail coordinated). but if grail has some artifact its getting way stronger... tough question.

interesting work DJ, as a general idea i sence that you wanna lower the points cost in the ruleset, some of your ideas i can agree with and some i find unbalanced but good work in any case mate  :)

Empire

- Flagellants: 3/3/4 they are 3/3/3 atm and not used much, i dont think the cost of the 3rd would change any but if some1 decides to make a Flagellant based army i think the 3/3/3 is fair.

- Dwarfs: 1/2/2 I can agree with this, they are much weaker in multiplayer than in singleplayer, they have a high leadership but fall easily victim to archers so i guess 1/2/2 is fair

- Glade Guard: 3/3/4 i must say that even tho they are faster than Flagellants and have high leadership then they will flee and i think 2/3/3 is fair enough.


Greenskins

- Spider: 1/1/2 - Scorpion: 2/2/3 should have the same theoretical chance to cause fear so i think that 1/2/2 for both is the best solution. Spiders have 360 vision but that is not enough to make them more than scorpions, they already cost a bit more so let that be it.

- Boar Riders: 2/3/3 They are slightly weaker than biguns but they are cavalry, and therefore must be considered more dangerous, 2/2/3 i think is ok but i wouldnt mind 2/3/3 either

- Big'uns: 2/2/3 are the best orc infantry and they are a match for elven infantry and wights so i think the 2/3/3 is ok

- Orc Shaman: 2/2/3 i spose 3 for the last is ok but is unlikely to come into effect


Undead

- Skeleton Archers: 1/2/4 - Skeleton Warriors: 1/2/3 eventho these troops have weak stats they will never break and that prolongs and fight they are in and that increases their chance to make the enemy route so 1 is too little, i think the 2/2/3 fair 2/3/3 would be too much 1/2/3 would be too little

- Skeleton Horsemen: 2/4/4 while they are the weakest cavalry in the game, they have the fear factor 3/3/4 seems ok to me, they are Shock troops that has to circle the enemy for an opening to take out some archers not head on troops but they are fast so they must be 3/3/4.

- Black Grail: in 3000/10 i would say they should be 7 or 8 but in 5000/15 10 is ok, ive used them myself alot and they are dangerous even with only ghouls as back up.


Horn of Urgok: 6 no no no 8 at the very least, personally i think it should be 10, nothing ruins a game as when its decided by who can blow the horn first to make the other flee first

Banner of Defiance: 2 you can only get 1 banner and while effective the unit that carries it is often targeted by alot by enemy troops because they are identified as the worst threat so 1 i think is fair enough.

night goblins should be 1/0/1 or 1/1/0

i think you underestimate the power of an angry goblin my friend hehe

i just mean that night goblins get little useless since you may hire two orc boyz regiment for the same price.

Orc Boyz  Level 1  1  1  2
Night Goblins  Level 1  1  1  1 

i suppose that is correct, it would benefit the use of goblins with 1/1/0

making zombies 1/0/1 has been a great success for undead armies in adding an otherwise overlooked unit

Great Idea!

:)

i think wraiths should be changed to 5/6/7 like mummies (or even 5/6/5)

wraith a VERY fragile and flee from ANY back attack. that means that even two regiments for 1 points (like goblins) may kill them. they also may flee from the unholy sword or horn so cost for this unit is too much in my opinion.
maybe for 3k/10 cost is rather okish, (6 points) cause therer is not very big number of regiments used, but at 5k/15 there is usually at least 6 regiments placed (or orc usually have 10 regiments).

Ok guys I read all the posts and tried to make a collection of all suggestions (ofc everything is a subjective collection  ;D)

ok, let's start:

I agree with the following changes:

---

Dwarfs: they're slow, that's correct, but the other skills are much better than the "normal" infantry in DO. So i would suggest: 2 2 2.

---

Spider: The "2" in the first point was the 360° view, cause in 3k you havn't the number of regiments to overlook all sides, so it's very useful there. Unlike in 5k. So 1 2 2 sounds good for me.

---

Goblins: Yep, yep, yep, they suck. Decrease is ok. But I would like to see more Fanatics, so i would suggest to decrease them too:

• Night Goblins - 1 1 0
• Night Goblin Archers - 1 1 1
• Night Goblins With Fanatics - 1 2 1
• Night Goblin Archers With Fanatics - 2 1 2

---

Orc Shaman: He's a tough fighter (did someone noticed it?) and his spells are ok, compared to the other mages I would suggest: 2 2 3

---

Screaming Skull Catapult: Very slow, so 3 3 4 is ok for me.

---

Skeleton Horsemen: Very hard decision, but I like the idea of 2 4 4.

---

Wraiths: 5 6 7 looks good for me.

---

Black Grail: 9 10 10 or 8 10 10? How tough is a BKG+2*Ghouls +2*Skeleton Archers+2*Zombies? I want to see 9 points for the grail....

---

I don't agree with the following:

---

Orc Boar Boyz: weaker than Big'uns

---

Big'uns: strongest Greenskins (very hard to defeat in cc if you have to fight several of them)

---

Wood Elf Glade Guards: Very fast, average fighter, so I neither see the matter to increase it nor to decrease it.

---

I hope I didn't forget an army. If nobody object, I would update the ruleset in a few days. Otherwise please post.

Good ideas bembe

i would say that dwarf warriors are still over prices compared to their vulnerability to archers and not much better stats than swordmen, if they had more movement i would agree but i think 2 for first is a little high

Skeleton warriors i think 2/4/4 takes away the point to buy 2, since they are just 1 pts less than wraiths

I love the goblin idea, being a big fan of goblins myself hehe
and i agree with your comments on everything else

i still dont get idea of INCREASING second/third  mages in cost (actually i HATE it) but rest seems ok
especially decreasing of wraiths HAHAHAAAA

The idea is still the same as the increase for the other units: avoid multiusing of regiments (regardless how useful the third regiment of the same type is)

>>>avoid multiusing of regiments

so why u dont ban 3 zombies then? i just dont get it.
wtf if you think that 3 mages are imba crush me/some1 else, but im sure that its NOT.

so if its useless why not to allow people use it? cause its really opens up some tactics (for example increasing chance of screming scull spell of fire mage) and id use it but i cant afford 4 points for that. 3 possibly ok but not 4

wtfffff :( i feel sick about it sirs

I'll explain the "idea" of the increase:

At the beginning we had (for example) much armys with 4 big'uns, 2 archers, 1 shaman+items....very equal, the idea of the "increase" is now, that a player who want to use a 3rd regiment of the same type have to think, if he should take it or if he should take 2 other cheaper regiments (for your example with the bright wizard: you could use your 3rd bright wizard for 4 points or you use a Ice Mage+Mercenary Ogres). So the "weaker" units will used too and no multiusing of "perfect" units.

The main goal of the two rules (3k/10+5k/15) are making all regiments playable and avoid specialized armys. And we allow to use the 3rd mage, but (conform) to the rules it "hurts" you, if you try to use more units of the same type.


I never said, that 3 mages are imba/useless. But this is a (rather) lopsided comparison. If you wanna have a better chance to get your prefered spell, why shouldn't you pay more for it? And for example, if I wanna use BGK+horn should we allow it? I think that would be a nice tactic......

the problem in your example that bright wizard not "perfect unit".
not at all.
i very hard to imagine that someone would EVER use even SECOND mage (im not talking about third). mages pretty useless at lvl1, i doubt they really cost 2pts for the first one. so having SECOND mage usually is not AN ADVANTAGE but its actually very bad idea, especially if it costs 3 points.

in our current rules about half of all regiment have the same cost for the second units, and using 2nd regiment for same prices usually an advantage. but using second mage for the same price but with less efficently (cause they share mana points) is kinda absurd. and its illogial to force ppl pay more for weaker things. ive never seen 2nd bright wizrard at games but i saw a lot of double regiments (x2 biguns, x2 ghouls etc etc) DO YOU SEE WHY?

and its definately incorrect example, cause BGK+horn most probably imba, but second mage is not, and with current rules he is actually weaken army.

I can repeat me only again and again:



If you wanna use multiple regiments of the same type with this rules, you have to pay.

On the other way: This ruleset is not the "best" ruleset in the world, it's only a guideline for playing (if both player agree). So in general you can create an other ruleset (in the Wiki (http://wiki.dark-omen.org/)) who have other goals and post it here (for example without point restriction but more like DOST rules etc.). I bet, everyone will be happy to have more different rulesets for playing.

you contradict yourself
Night Goblins    Level 1    1    1    1
Mercenary Ogres    Level 1    2    2    3
Mercenary Cavalry    Level 1    3    3    4
Dwarf Warriors    Level 1    2    2    3
Skeleton Horsemen    Level 1    3    3    4

etc etc etc

Its true that some units dont have an increase for 2nd unit, but mages, artillery and powerful archer units have an increase after 1st unit.

The reason goblins and other weaker units dont have an increase or even decrease is because they are never used, its and attempt to invite their use.

Mages are already in extensive use and so a decrease in pts is not necessary in my mind.

Mages are hard to balance because they can save an army, or be the weak spot that crumbles the army, personally i think they should be minimum 3 pts and 4 for vampires and then increase by 1 per mage. They are just as much a calculated risk as 2 goblin fanatics that will either wreck havoc in the enemy ranks or turn and kill your own units.
The mage pts are already low, seriously 1 pts for 1st goblin mage and if he gets "Letz Go" which is a magical potion of strength he can make the day for his army.

OK, we finally finished it (I hope): latest 5k/15 (http://wiki.dark-omen.org/do/DO/Rules/5000/15). Good work everyone.

I have to agree, 1 point for a Night Goblin Shaman is too low, all mages should be at least 2 points. The Goblin shaman is actually tougher than a necromancer (T4 to T3) and the magic lores are all decent. Plus because its just 1 guy rather than a block it can be a bit tricky to catch mages if you dont have (or they trash) your cav (which tend to be rare and directed at better enemies) and archers

i had a long discussion with bemb yesterday regarding cost of the second mage.

he said that the main purpose of the rules is to make each second/third unit be more costly than previous one, to force people play diffirient regiments. another goal is a balance for the game simply balancing of pts on them.

as for units which have similar pts for 1st and second units (for example night goblins archers, canon, knights etc) bemb argue that 1st unit in such cases usually weaker than points he deserves. for example, goblins he made as 0,5/0,75/0,75 so cause of first unit "should" cost lower acc to rules there is not need to increase pts for such regiments by second aspect of the rule (when every secodn units costs at least 1 pts higher than 1st)

but as for mages i dont think they really have stats 2/2/3 (which is seems to be acc. to rules, when you increase pts for every regiment it will be 2/3/4

i actually think that all mages (maybe except vampire cause he is good in meele) have stats 2/1(1,5)/1 cause they split manapool and you cant efficiently use both mages. i.e. if you have two goblins you may use both of them simultaneously but you very rarely be able to use both mages simultaneously, cause of low manapool. i think ts obv that mage without mana doesnt realy worth even 0,5 pts.

second mage possibly have not so little value (1) as it should be, cause he might be as "backup" if the second mage die and also provdes bigger chance for the spell you want. thats why i think its possible that he might have 1,5 value, but not certanly.

so if you agree with mages stats as 2/1(1,5)/1 then it doesnt contradicts  with rules if we make them 2/2/2.

if you think mages have diffrient stats please eleborate why with examples.

p.s. and why Vampire  Level 1  3  4  4

p.p.s. and i think 3 for canon is too much. from other way, 2 is maybe too litle but noone uses canons (when you able to buy mortair for 1 pts more) so i think 2/3/3(4) is good stats.

Note that this is only my opinion about it and not of the other members of the community:

Imo there are only some special cases where you need more then 1 mage:

The following example is only suitable for Empire:
Let's say a somebody has an army with some mortars because he wants to camp during the whole battle. He selects The Empire map so he can shoot nearly over the whole map. But because he needs some support against rushing cavalry units he also buys 3 bright wizards and one Jet-Item to increase the chance of getting the Skull-Spell. Now he looks which wizard has the skull and exchanges the Staff of Jet to him. If an enemy is attacking he will cast some skulls on him (and if magic resistent: Use some cheap blocker unit ^^). After defeating all cavalry (and the enemy mage with the help of his other 2 bright wizards+teleport) he waits until the enemy is bored and is attacking with all the slow units which are now defeated by the mortars.
And to avoid such tactics we should keep the wizard costs high.

--> In general you buy more mages if you want to increase the chance for good spell which should be combined with some risk = more points

My own Personal opinion is to keep 3 and 5k

Battles small and with only 1 mage on the battlefield.


I feel that, since we designed 3 and 5k Rules,to allow new fans

to control fewer units and not to feel overwhelmed by a large Battle.


Keeping the Large Battles for 9k, I would like to see 3 and 5k kept different

and think facing 2 mages, means that potentially i should spend more on anti magic.


Eventually, if we lower Mages 2nd and 3rd points, it will encourage their use, something that I don't want.


However, Great Debate and we i think 5k is pretty much finalised now.

Good Work!

:)

I agree Olly i also feel that 5k is now pretty finalized, atleast until after next tournament, which is the biggest test for the current 5k ruleset

My only problem is Goblin Shaman costing less points than other mages when its the equal of all other mages; the costing of additional mages in 3-5k seems irrelevant to me either way. People who've played more MP seem to think 2 points is a fair price, so I'll go with that but I dont need to play lots to know allowing 1 cheaper is a very bad idea, especially in the context of O&G relative low unit costs.

On the one hand, a bright wizard can teleport or has fire skull, an ice mage has +1 spell and an orc shaman is good in cc, the goblin shaman........he's a goblin........on the other hand, with the right spell, he's very nasty. So perhaps, we should set him to 2/2/3 and the orc shaman to 2/3/3. Let's wait for other opinions.

Just floating the idea, but what do people think about Potion of Strength costing no points? Or no points if certain criteria are met). Its the only one-shot item other than the Heart of Woe, but unlike that, once its used its gone completely.

seems kinda reasonable. from other hand i never used it and dont have experience to say whether its good or not.

what excactly gives this potion?
also im looking for the situation when u be want to have a casual shield artifact. since its only gives only extra armor or one single armor if regiment dont have such.
and for the last case, you may use any other shield, which provides not only 1 single armor if regiment dotn have any, but also antimagic or ptoloss.

so this shield seems pretty useless, except its price.

another useless item is a firehelm. chances that the enemy will have bright wizard are about ~20% (1/3 that he will choose empire and 20(not 16)% cause ppl tend to use bright wizard more than ice).
also there is a high possibility that choosen regiment wouldnt be able to use it properly anwyay, cause not fact that mage will attack excactly this regiment; as for protecting mummies - banner will be much better cause its universal.
also very litle % of ppl use fireswords, so its also not an argument.

so if you gonna make potion=0 then i also suggest make firehelm=0 and shield =0
maybe we may make a rule that items which cost 0 actually costs 0.5 so if you gonna have two "0" items you have to pay 1 but still able to buy 1 item "for free"

The potion increases the Strength of the unit imo. THe Letz go goblin spell does the same (one of the best spells in Goblin Campaign... cast it on Ragnar/Dreadaxe!

Yes, this Shield ist quite useless. But Imo nearly no unit which has 0 Shieldslots can wear a shield?

THe Firehelm protects against Bright Magic, Fire-Casting swords AND Screaming Skull Catapult! BUt it'S still useless, yes ;) (you can block SSC with Ptolos)

I would agree with a one of this item for free rule (except the money :P). To the other users: Your opinion?

flagellants may take it. i hvnt remebered all completely but there might be another regiment with zero armor as well

The only units that cant take the magic shields are mages or units with no item slots; all other no-armour units can!

Please make a list of all items with points (or grouped items who are "buy 1 get one free")

i feel that we need make sceleton warriors to 2/1/(3?)
sceletons naturally should be a core of ud army; also their stats not very good but their cost is a little higher if im not mistaken

also i faced with little weakness of ud army so making sceletons little cheaper is ok for the balance purposes

above stats of sceletons (1st) and swordmen
(http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=lc&chd=t:40,20,20,30,30,10,20,10,50&chco=00ff00&chf=bg,s,000000&chdl=Regiment&chls=2.0,0.0,0.0&chxt=x,y&chxl=0:|MO|WS|BS|ST|TO|WO|IN|AT|LS|1:||1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10&chxs=0,ffffff|1,ffffff&chs=540x200&chg=0,10)

(http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=lc&chd=t:40,30,30,30,30,10,30,10,70&chco=00ff00&chf=bg,s,000000&chdl=Regiment&chls=2.0,0.0,0.0&chxt=x,y&chxl=0:|MO|WS|BS|ST|TO|WO|IN|AT|LS|1:||1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10&chxs=0,ffffff|1,ffffff&chs=540x200&chg=0,10)

That Swordsmen graph is wrong, they're actually WS4 so even better than shown there.

Something I've been feeling for a while; Skeletons are reliable, but mainly insofar as they're reliably bad. Empire can field 2 infantry units for the price of one Skellie unit, and the human troops have the advantage of polearms/great weapons to further emphasise their strengths. Fear and reliability are ok but they can only take you so far, especially when compared to the other armies having plentiful options of 1 point core infantry that are far superior to ghouls/zombies/skellies. I think Skellie Warriors should be priced 1/2/2 or even 1/1/2. Even Swordsmen and Orc Boys can comfortably take down Skellie warriors 1-on-1, with bad luck rather than Skellie prowess seeing Fear work against them. Numbers also gives UD the opportunity to use their Fear properly, because it only works when they have numbers, both for it to work and also to compensate for their crapness when it doesnt ;) . So we have Ghouls which are decent but unreliable fighters, Zombies which are just cheapo-meat, and then we can add in Skellies as reliable but crap. Unlike the other armies with their well-rounded base troops, UD's core troops have clear pros/cons, and irregardless of those are still crapper fighters. It also means that the more 'elite' UD can stay costly, because their biggest failing is the inability to support them as well as other armies can their troops (although are Black Grail really worth 9 points with all the massed units, Defiance Banners, Flaggalents, other UD, and of course the big target on their heads, around?). As good as the stats of many UD elite may look in isolation, on the battlefield they still dont have the punch to win by themselves.

As for Skellie archers, they have a longer range than Goblins but they have the worst BS stat in the game. We should look at at 1/2/2 or 2/1/2 for them, especially as UD have only 1 war machine and SSC are the weakest of the mortar/lobba/SSC trio (and im told their mages basic 'fireball' spell is also the weakest in the game which doesnt help). UD simply cant create a shooty army to match their opponents no matter how we points them, but we should at least allow them to form something approaching a credible threat.

And then there's skellie horsemen; 4 points for a second unit??? They're just normal skellie warriors with a speed boost, making them easily the weakest cavalry in the game, with only their reliablity to aid them. Price them 2/2/3 or 2/3/3.

------------------------

* Potion of Strength
 * Heart of Woe
 * Dragon Helm
 * Enchanted Shield

First one from this list is free, subsequent are 1 point. Just remember: lack of gold notwithstanding, we are essentially giving people a carte blanche to always take 1 of these items. Is everyone sure thats a place we want to go?

Im wondering, should we increase the cost of Defiance Banner to 2? I havent been round here long but im already seeing its almost obligatory, although certainly not a threat on the level of Wrath Banner/Horn. Considering how few UD unbreakable units there are, and these are poorer fighters than any unit that can take the Defiance Banner barring Goblins and Zombies!

i think we need make potion still =1 pts but allow men to take another item "for free". anyway he had to pay money. and yes i really had some armies which wasnt able to get any more items cause of lack of money


btw i still not sure about wights (2pts) i actually believe they should be 3 (no matter how much i like ud)
look charts of flagellants
(1st)
(http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=lc&chd=t:40,30,30,40,40,10,30,20,100&chco=00ff00&chf=bg,s,000000&chdl=Regiment&chls=2.0,0.0,0.0&chxt=x,y&chxl=0:|MO|WS|BS|ST|TO|WO|IN|AT|LS|1:||1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10&chxs=0,ffffff|1,ffffff&chs=540x200&chg=0,10)

and wights:
(http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=lc&chd=t:40,30,0,30,40,30,30,10,80&chco=00ff00&chf=bg,s,000000&chdl=Regiment&chls=2.0,0.0,0.0&chxt=x,y&chxl=0:|MO|WS|BS|ST|TO|WO|IN|AT|LS|1:||1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10&chxs=0,ffffff|1,ffffff&chs=540x200&chg=0,10)

flagellants and wights same in q-ty; but wights has WO=3 !!! and actually not bad LS.
from other way flags do have 2 attacks; but wights have 1armor included.

so i basically think these forces kinda clost in strenght so wights should be 3pts...

alavet you said some good points, but could you make 3 tests with this units and post the result? 10 flags vs. 10 wights with flags attacking and the same with wights attacking. Last but not least both attacking at the same time.

i actually wanted some1 to do that...

well maybe we will test it today with soem1 who wants (9k armies; no strnght boosts)

the eternal problem with wights is that they are just fancy zombies, if they flee they crash

3 pts is a big bet on a unit that potentially will flee after first engagement.

I have myself had that in 3k once, they fled quickly at the face of 2 orc regiments

its rare to see anyone bother to use them with out the banner of defiance

thats true, but they have LS=8 and just 9 persons, so frankly speaking if any regiment with 9 starting units flee then usually it doesnt affects big at the game at all when they come back, cause regiments (in my experience) usually go flee if they lost about half of men. (im not talking about mummies or grails :)

so i mean if (virtually) flaggellants will be able to flee, they usually be fleed with 4-5 units in; which is doesnt help REALLY much when they return. so i mean if such low-unit regiment is gonna flee its usually means they already reduced their value a lot.

another really big problem that if we make them 3pts i dont sure any1 will use them. i think if we icnrease them to 12 in regiment it will help a lot. maybe they become overpowered though.
from other way; if we allow sceletons to be 2/1 (1/1) or so then we'll have some "free" points for wights...

yeah but wights dont come back, they are destroyed like zombies when they flee, the first wight can be 2 but they have the potential to be better than skeletons so i think 2/3/3 is not bad for wights

Flagellants wont flee they will fight until they are dead

Skeletons can be a powerful enemy because they also will never flee, weaker than most other infantry but with the ability to causing fear and will never flee themselves they are more valuable than other standard infantry, the currents points are well suited i think.
Skeleton cavalry the only undead unit i think that is too expensive, 2/4/4 is too much, 2/3/4 would be better suited

oh thanks i didnt know that!\

seriously, have you ever read my post ? :)

i was actually saying that when any such regiments (lets imagine that flagellants) flee most of the time thats means that they most possibly lost at least half of tropps whcih decreases their strenght A LOT, so when they come back they dot do much... for example imagine how 4 flagellants will help you against fresh swordmen unit? i guess flags maybe kill a lot of swordmen but will die..

also, i believe that 1 regiment of wights able to kill one treeman (which costs 3 pts) or cavalry unit.
their WO=3 really awesome and they have armor comparing to flags... anyway i will test it today if some1 will agre to play with me and post a result there

lol sorry mate i misunderstood you

yes when other regiments flee they are often low in manpower but atleast they are not destroyed like wights but if important regiments flee and rally they can still decide the outcome of a battle, wights are done if they flee

lets put it this way, i trust flagellants alot more than i do wights ;)

WS 3 is average for empire and greenskins but compared to many undead units its high yes

I've begun to, but simply because both they, Wraiths and Mummies are what I call 'fair weather' units; they're fine when the going's good but when things go wrong they both die almost spontaneously when they flee. And the Mummies need the Banner more than Wights because the Mummies are a lot more points and power. And that sudden death is very expensive in gold, points and army effectiveness. Wights/Wraiths die on flee because thats what happens and Mummies because they're M3 and thus everyone except Dwarfs and other Mummies can easily outpace them and run them into the ground (has happened every time theyve fled on me, which is far too regularly for such a supposedly good unit). Even other M3 troops have a decent chance of crippling or totally routing the fleeing Mummies, the same as happens when two M4 troops collide and one flees.

If Wights cost 3 points, I wouldnt use them, either naked or with Banner, until all other possible options were exhausted. I use them currently because there's no other way to spend those 2 points! Its the cost of single unit of skellies, and half a 2nd Horseman unit. If I have the gold, im prepared to take the risk but it doesnt mean its a particularly great choice. They simply wouldnt be worth it and they cost a packet for definite effectiveness reduction over only moderately more gold expensive Wraiths/Mummies. For Mummies/Wraiths/Black Grail, I dont mind paying high points so long as the other units in the army (skellies, etc), who are needed to support them, are reasonably priced. The UD elites will remain characteristically tough but brittle but will have the support in place to give them a fighting chance when things are going south.

awesoem news sirs

we just tested it with ZzUu some of wights vs flag and wights really worthless

4vs4 all wights fleed when flags was about 5 units left in each regiment (2 times i charged 2 times he charged)
also we tried wights vs treeman - they fleed
we tried wights vs elven warriors > wights kileld 1 elf and fleed

and they fleed even against swordmen 1v1 - they killed 2-3 swordmen and fleed its just LOL


then ZzUu said that we need to use banners of defiance with them. he used wights with banner and i gave him mine.
again we placed x2 flags agaisnt x2 wights
my charged flags kileld his wights and otherwise.

there was about x2 units in each regiment after the battle

and again we faced with big weakness of wights (we made some side batlles besides flags and wights). they likes to flee pretty much.

from other way they caused fear liek 2/3 of time against weak units like swordmen and so on, when they charge first.

so yeah i think 2 points its surely enough for them and even maybe second one also should be 2 pts cause i dont see reaons for any1 to buy 1 additional wight for 3

p.s. and sad to say this secret but storm staff seems to be overpowered a little. i think we need increase it to 2 or so. i really smashed ZzUu orcs and some human armies with this staff. in last game i kileld 44 men with my ice mage (maybe 10 units in this number i killed by spells as max)

So what's the result?

storm staff to 2?
skeleton horsemen to 2/3/4?

Is it just me or do Flaggalants seem to perform a lot better than their (good) statline suggests? Are they actually worth more points (especially at just 360 gold a pop)?

Well everyone makes the big fuss about Wights 3 Wounds but nothing about their 1 WS3 S3 attack, with Wight Blades that appear to have zero impact over hand weapons. 9 guys who fall apart when they break yet dont have the capability to kill stuff, which is needed to win combats? Not a strong combo ;) Wraiths have twice the number of attacks (as a unit, 10 total instead of 9) and two-handed weapons on top; even Mummies muster 2 S4 attacks each (though only with hand weapons).

That 3rd unit of Horsemen still isnt as good as Merc cav on 4 points also. They're fast and they cause fear, but fight-wise theyre the equal of basic skeletons and thus also goblins except for marginally more armour (whereas all other cavalry is above the average for their side, less so with boars but noticably with humans), and Unbreakable is less useful with cavalry (and also archers) than with infantry. 2/3/3 because of their fancy special rules but never more than 3.

Noones commented on Defiance Banner, or indeed the UD Skellie cost issues.

As to the Staff of Osiris, its certainly been my primary mage wargear, but I rarely use mages...

i actually dont think it should be increased in cost. yes, everyone uses it but it doesnt meant we should increase it based on this fact, its illogical.

from my side of view its really costs 1-1,5 pts, cause its not really increasing any stats except LS.
if you want to prove its cost 2 then please try tests like follows:

any units with 1pts (like swordmen)+banner against any similar unit which costs 2pts (elves or biguns for example). well its possible than biguns will lost but i think it'd be very close.

maybe let ppl buy banner for 2 and some other artifacts for free (which is listed above)

what about making 0,5 pts system? it will solve some such problems. like we may make shield for 0,5 and firehelm for 0 and units will be more balanced...

i still think 1/1 is too cheap for them. they cause fear by themselves and unbreakable which is definately worth betetr than usual goblin. from other side im not sure they may handle ghouls 1v1 - mayeb some1 will test it?

i personally like to see 2/1 to avoid ppl use this unit as "meat" for blockign other units cause they unbreakable.

btw the main advantage (and disadvantage sometimes) of unbreakable units is that they will never flee so they may block other units very good.

so for exmapel currently i using zombies only for blocking some critical units and they usually holds for 2-3 rounds (and even cause fear and win sometimes) but skeletons will hold much more like 3-5 rounds. noo noo 1/1 no good.


maybe 1/2 also not bad but i dont like it

Thats fine, as it at least offers an inducement to use them. However, it should be 2/1/2 if people want to use 3. Big Uns or Wights with the Defiance Banner are 3 points and they far exceed Skellies (hell, even without the Banner they do). Ive found that whatever their unbreakability, being as crap as goblins they cant make as much use of that unbreakability for it to be comparable to Defiance Banner units, because noone gives the banner to their goblins!

Black Grail. 9 points is an awful lot to pay for a unit that isnt nearly as tough as 5 point mummies (nor have the physical immunity of Wraiths) an indeed only slightly more so than 2 point Wights (who they only exceed by WS, not vaugely worth a full point, and Unbreakable, which is apparently 1 point; the differences in T and armour balance out). Their hitting power is approximately 30-35% greater than Mummies (by virtue mainly of 3 more models, less so by WS6); that hitting power advantage is actually in net terms less than that, because of their fragility, so it tends to evaporate much faster than Mummies. Their main combat strength is perhaps derived from their damage causing Panic, which is possibly limited only to the round they charge (something else we need to check out). At 9 points, an army including Black Grail is basically only an army of Black Grail; UD struggle when Mummies/Wraiths get bogged down at 5 points. Numbers of troops counts for a lot, and when you can fit only a handful of zombies, ghouls and maybe a unit of Skellies or (probably bannerless) Wights, the Grail is virtually fighting an entire enemy army on its own. This is only made worse by virtually every army taking the Defiance Banner by default, meaning everyone has an easy option to stick the Grail and simply overwhelm it. Is a reduction to 8 points really too much to ask?

The Grail is an awesome weapon, i have myself used it supported by 1 skeleton archer, and 3 ghoul regiments (old rules), and the army did very well, especially as i played against an greenskin army with the horn of urgot, and the grail and the skeleton archers single handedly routed and killed 10 orc/goblin regiments. The ghouls fleed ofcz lol.

i think 9pts for grail is enough. well 8 may also be but we definately need test.

so i both for 8 or 9 but with tests

Would be nice, if everyone, who suggest new points, writes a summary at the end of his post,like this way:

regimentname x/x/x

So it's much easier to find all suggestions. thanks.

no changes desired by me i was tryn to argue against the lowering of skeleton warriors and archers ;)

Yep I read it, I meant only, that it is much more easier for me, when I'll collect all suggestions one week later.

Skeleton Warriors -> 1/1/2 or 2/1/2 or 1/2/2
Skeleton Archers -> 2/2/2
Skeleton Horsemen -> 2/3/3
Black Grail -> 8/9/10 (maybe)

Something ive just remembered, and needs to be looked at: Skeleton troops may appear to be Unbreakable like they have the Defiance Banner, but in the TT game they actually take extra losses when they lose combat, instead of taking a Break test like other troops. This means whilst they dont flee, they die at a far faster rate than truly Unbreakable troops do, which obviously if its true in DO (which anecdotely I believe it is, having seen how fast Skeleton troops die compared to comparable troops) makes the contention that they should remain expensive because they're 'Unbreakable' a far weaker argument.
Also note that this would explain why Skeleton Warriors/Horsemen/Archers have their own 'racial' flag as shown in the unit editor, whereas Catapaults and Chariots do not; the latter dont take wounds this way. This means that only those 2 units and Black Grail actually have the equivilant of the 1-point Defiance Banner people like to compare them to!

i agree with warpghost about units cost but second for skelles i prefer 2/1/2

With a recent test (http://forum.dark-omen.org/troops/skeleton-unbreakability-test-t300.0.html;msg1865#msg1865) of the actual strength of Skeletons Unbreakable ability, the case for Skeletons being worth less than some have assumed has just been strengthened. They simply arent even tarpits on the level of even a goblin unit with the Banner of Defiance. Only a straight-up test of how flagged Skeletons with Fear enabled perform will show if they are significantly stronger than Orc Boys/Goblins, Ghouls/Zombies and human infantry.

I also had a brief try-out with the Staff of Osiris against Black Grail Knights (before the game disconnected). And I can tell you that what the Staff does is cast a Blast/Gaze of Mork spell each magic phase. One shot took out a whole file of Grails (4), which was matched by a shot from Blast. Ive also seen Gaze of Mork take out a Treeman in 2 hits so I think we can assume that these are all extremely powerful spells that are only limited by what you can shoot them at and how many you can effect with it. I also know from experience that the Staff is easy to block the shot with terrain that you couldnt see, as even a slight rise in the ground will block the shot. But when it does land a good hit, its very powerful; roughly the equal of a cannonball would be my assumption.

well i think same. mobile canon.

you think we need it increase to 3 or wat?

btw land affect pretty much on this item. like on the map road to the moussillion ive recentlay played it works VERY bad

I think the whole items needs some adjusted points. I like e.g. the suggestion with 2 items for 1 point etc. and yeah it seems, that the staff needs minimum 2 points.

Id say 2 points on the staff precisely because it seems the only item effectively limited by terrain, and also because its limited to mages only. It isnt even necassarily the best item for them at all times but it certainly has a deadlyness even the Wrath Banner cant necassarily match if well-used (of course, the Wrath Banner has a big advantage in simple reliability and ease of use so still rates higher in my book)

What other items need looking at? Stormsword looks like a candidate but it seems to be able to hit your own troops and its quite heavily limited by the requirement to be in melee, so i think its still a 1-point item. The other swords? They're all both expensive (the costliest of all items often by some way) and quite limited in their applications, and the Stormsword is probably the best of the bunch but even it doesnt deserve an increase. Spelleater Shield and Shield of Ptolos? Well they can both effectively make a unit immune to a certain type of attack and can also give unarmoured units a bit of armour, but its still only one unit and only against one type of attack so I think its still 1-point. Banner of Defiance? I do kinda feel its 2-points, especially given its prevelance, but then both Empire and Undead have access to Unbreakable troops anyway and perhaps we shouldnt begrudge O&G players having only this to emulate them.

Staff of Osiris -> 2
Strength Potion/Enchanted Shield/Heart of Woe/Dragon Helm -> 0 for the first item from that list

i can agree with the changes proposed here but i have to say that i feel it has to cost something to get the benefits,
just like zombies a 2 for the price of 1 is best suited, because otherwise its the same as free potion of strength for everyone and that is the not the objective

Something I did point out initially and ask people about.

Change:

• Skeleton Warriors -> 2/2/2 (cause fear AND you can have more than one "unbreakable" (this i neither possible with empire nor with greenskins))
• Skeleton Archers -> 2/2/3 (orc arrer boyz have the same points, and I guess, the skeletons are equal or better)
• Skeleton Horsemen -> 3/2/3 (see empire cav+orc cav)
• Staff of Osiris 2 (ok)

I thought about the goal of the unit's. Why do you buy undeads? For one reason: to cause fear, so why should a skeleton warrior/archer have the same or less points as an orc arrer? I think (beside the test) you underestimate attacking skeletons with their fear.

2nd for free:

• Strength Potion
• Enchanted Shield
• Dragon Helm

Wouldn't change:

• Heart of Woe: If you opponent attacks with 2-3 regiments, it's very powerful
• Black Grail:If you set it to 8 points, you have 7(!!) points left for other regiments, I personaly think, that this is to much

i still think noone is gonna use skeletons for 2/2
lets see tourney armies and effectivness of this system..

Its not really only about that, if they will be used alot or not. Skeletons are in competition with some strong units in the undead race which may prevent them from really being the main force of an army but if its balanced best in that way then so be it

but yes alavet lets see how the tournament goes, its only a week away now

you have to defend your title Sir Alavet  ;D

So I made the adjustments click (http://wiki.dark-omen.org/do/DO/Rules/5000/15). I hope everyone is happy :)

Vampire - 4 points

He exceeds all other mages not only in toughness but also in speed(ms of 6, afaik one of the fastest regiments), which makes him almost invulnerable to archers. Having the melee abilities of his, makes him  capable of killing other mages with ease, which becomes really simple if he has the teleport spell. Besides, in the last Dost2002 rules (http://wiki.dark-omen.org/do/DO/Rules/DOST2002 (http://wiki.dark-omen.org/do/DO/Rules/DOST2002)) 1st lvl vampire costs as much as 3rd lvl necromancer - so I think he is currently underpriced.  ;)

Have some other suggestions on Und units costs, hope to post them later  8)

I want -2 Points (so you get 2 points when buying him) for Treeman. He was really useless in my army.
One time he lost against Biguns (+Defiance) and in a Undead battle vs. flak he routed 5(!) Times. For 2700gc the Treeman is real garbage.

-2 points for treeman

Guess it would be ok, if Empire didnt have so powerful and cheap units such as flagellants. Besides, there are many powerful items...
However 3 points is really too much for him imho. I checked the DOST2002, and it suggests providing a considerable bonus if a player buys treeman.
So I think we should set him to 0 points.

i think 4 for vampire is ok

for treeman - well, 0 seems okish, but frankly speaking you willnt be able to use 15 points anyway with 2,3k left.

from other hand i dislike this idea cause it will allow ppl to use a lot of artillery units, which is not much fun (i dont against mortairs but with current balanced points, so this "0" allow human to have more artillery...

also now i see the skeletons should be decreased to 1/1/(2). they really maybe jusst little more powerfull than spider but they are slower and larger unit.

I reckon that vampires a good but 3 is already a nice price, 4 i guess is high but maybe worth a try.

A special rule concerning the Treeman could be a good idea, they are a drain on the cash and can flee rather fast.

I used skeletons and i found it very useful to get 2 skeletons for just 3 pts, my skeletons kicked alot of ...

Agree



I think regardless of which points we set the Treeman, you'll never reach the 15 points if you buy him. I looked over Ghabrys army (http://forum.dark-omen.org/empire-armybuilds/april-tournament-empire-armies-t310.0.html;msg1958#msg1958) and thought, how we could give a bonus for using Treeman. One idea was: setting all items to 0 points, if you use Treeman, so you can use easily banner of wrath etc. to improve the strength of the army.

other suggestions:

recheck mummies

I had an idea that when you buy a treeman then the next unit is for free in terms of points, but maybe the problem is the heavy 2700 gc cost wont allow support units good enough

I think mummies are very expensive already, i think higher cost will make them a big liability as they are slow and only stand a real chance to get into combat if they have help to lock down the enemy. Also they are not unbreakable

I would think that if vampires get increased then mummies need to stay the same or the other way around not to weaken the undead race too much compared to the 2 other races.

Mummies by themselves are overcosted at 6 points; the Defiance Banner however acts on them as more of a combat multiplier than sinply something that stops them running away, at which point even 7 points starts to look a little low!

Vampire at 4 or more is fine by me; their speed makes them almost immune to mage's usual counter of missile fire when well-micro'd, as they can dodge your shots! They can also fight out well against some of the melee counters.

I have no idea why it was thought Skeleton Horsemen should be costed 3/2/3 because that is frankly moronic. 2/3/3 or 2/2/3 was the suggestion. Making people pay more for taking just 1 unit, combined with the Mummies cost increase, along with the general costing nonesense of UD, basically forced me to ditch my usual UD army as no longer tenable.

Ive had a look at mummies vs grails with bembelimen


Mummies with banner have a slightly better chance than 50/50 to defeat the grail.

However without the banner they stand no chance at all.

Mummies i guess should be 7 pts, they are slow and can be shot at alot before they get to the enemy. 8 is too high compared to the grail, when the grail is 9.

i sudenly got known that ghouls has !!!2 attacks. which is very suprising for me.
sticking it with the fact they cause fear we definately should make second unit 2

so i suggest ghouls be 1/2/2 as usual swordmen or maybe even 1/2/3 (but i know noone will pay 3 for the third unit)

also a very low leadership (5) and an extra trait "Cowardly"

they are as liable to cause fear as to run themselves

Banner of defiance -> 2-3 pts
It seems to me that WarpGhost is right saying it's the banner of defiance which makes mummies the best melee unit in the game. Besides, I consider it an incredibly efficient item on any army unless it features unbreakable units or lacks in numbers greatly. So changing banner's price, which would affect all the factions, seems a better idea to me then increasing mummies' cost and thus undermining only Undead.

I agree that mummies with banner are extremely tough,

but banner of defiance at 2-3 pts would weaken the greenskin race, as they have no otherwise unbreakable units and im sure that is not the purpose.

Mummies set to 7 and the banner cost of 1 makes 8, just short of the grails 9 pts,

im not crazy about special rules but if many think mummies are too tough with banner then a 2-3 pts rule for banner with mummies could be the way.

Mummies also cannot be too expensive because without banner they are no way near as tough.

i dunno why u want to improve mummies to 7; i think  6 is ok... maybe we need to arrange some tests?

i believe that for example flags(3)+ogres with banner(3)+swordmen(1) will kill mummies with banner (7). at least i tried it in few games and it worked.. mybae i was lucky?

from other way im not against 7 cause they really tough but no way they should cost 8


and i dont like idea of banner=2, its too much for orcs and empire as well. if other thinks its too powerfull then we may make special rule about banner: for example make it 2pts but allow to buy second regiment with -1 pts cost.

like2 swordmen (with banner) now will cost 4pts, as they cost now. this automatically increases mummies value, cause it'd be too cost for them. but with that rule we usually will have 2 biguns with orc armies, which i personally dont like.

i think you where lucky alavet hehe

mummies with banner can kill black grail at something like 60/40 chance, so 7 is ok by me not that im against 6 either because they are very slow

other than that i agree

altho we gotta watch with special rules, they have a habbit of taking away freedom of creativity

and again after each battle with flak i have new suggestion to balance :D

vamp def should be 4pts
2 as usual mage +1 for good meele (as scorpion i guess) and +1 for the speed (as we use for cavalry)

seems that elves too much overpowered :( i really HATE to face them in any battle no matter which opponent is.
sure thats not the main reason for the balancing them :)
-their range is very close to the range of bolt thrower (which has 2 pts)
-they shoot pretty fast
-their damage much better than bolt thrower
-they might move (and MS=5 which is faster than other units)
-they may fight meele, and actually rather good (better than swordmen)
-cause of their characteristics i always face with situation when they flee but then
come back to the battle and usually its VERY bad case when they come back at the distane of fire and start to shoot you.
its dififirs from usual behavior of other archers cause usually another archers flee forever or reduces in q-ty too much
if they attacked being with any good meele unit.
 
for example see graph of elves
(http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=lc&chd=t:50,50,50,40,40,20,70,20,90|50,40,40,30,30,10,60,10,80&chco=ff0000,00ff00&chf=bg,s,000000&chdl=Leader|Regiment&chls=2.0,0.0,0.0&chxt=x,y&chxl=0:|MO|WS|BS|ST|TO|WO|IN|AT|LS|1:||1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10&chxs=0,ffffff|1,ffffff&chs=540x200&chg=0,10)

and swordmen:
(http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=lc&chd=t:40,30,30,30,30,10,30,10,70&chco=00ff00&chf=bg,s,000000&chdl=Regiment&chls=2.0,0.0,0.0&chxt=x,y&chxl=0:|MO|WS|BS|ST|TO|WO|IN|AT|LS|1:||1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10&chxs=0,ffffff|1,ffffff&chs=540x200&chg=0,10)

conclusion:
2 as usual archers +1 for the range +0,5 for the rate  of fire +0,5 for their good meele characteristics and +0,5 for their better MS and "comeback"
though, second unit in that case should cost also 5 pts

5/5/6 my vote for elves.
p.s. i also think bolt thrower should be 1 pts. mayeb 1/2/2 but i prefer 1/1/2

P.P.S. LOL! elves even better than cavalry:
Grudgebringer Cavalry
(http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=lc&chd=t:40,50,50,40,40,20,50,30,90|40,40,30,40,30,10,40,10,70&chco=ff0000,00ff00&chf=bg,s,000000&chdl=Leader|Regiment&chls=2.0,0.0,0.0&chxt=x,y&chxl=0:|MO|WS|BS|ST|TO|WO|IN|AT|LS|1:||1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10&chxs=0,ffffff|1,ffffff&chs=540x200&chg=0,10)
and lol @ cavalry is soo sloow
maybe cavalry should be 2 pts? discuss

The stats you have put up as elves is not the stats for mutiplayer

they are the same for both leader and unit and differ from singleplayer as most units are considerable weaker in multiplayer

Elves
M:5 WS:4 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 IN:6 A:1 L:8

4/5/6 is already expensive, ive not seen anybody use for than 1, as taking 2 for the cost of 9 is more than most are willing to spend on archers.

Elves are particular weak against fast moving enemies, ofcz they will always win the shootout against other archers but then they cost double.


bear in mind Alavet we were playn Factions and thats why i was able to use 2 elven bowmen, 3 glade gaurds, 1 dwarf and the icemage with staff of osiris, in 5k/15 that is not possible

this is doesnt contradicts with graph at all.

as for factions, not its not the main reason. the main reason that i found your tourney army (elvez + crossbowmen + cavalry + meat) very strong and kinda imba.

2 as usual archers +1 for the range +0,5 for the rate  of fire +0,5 for their good meele characteristics and +0,5 for their better MS and "comeback"
arguments against?

it contradicts the red line, they should have been lined up anyway

hehe it is a good army

but how about we test it once more, you make the army and ill see if i can beat it, if i cant then i agree
best of 3 ;)

you can see it in the army build section

i dont like to mass spam this topic. red line is for LEADER and yes i know that there is not leaders at multiplayer. so my reasoning remains the same:  ELVES BETTER THAN MOST MEELE UNIT AND Q-TY, AND EVEN EQUAL/BETTER CAVALRY BY MOST STATS AND !!! BETTER BY SPEED

please again give your counter reasoning for my thought of based points.
2 as usual archers +1 for the range +0,5 for the rate  of fire +0,5 for their good meele characteristics and +0,5 for their better MS and "comeback"

and about your idea, yes, i thought about it. we will try it for sure. even tho you possibly better in using elves "right way".

well 4/5/6 already means that only 1 elven bowman is used anyway
i guess 5/6/6 wont make much difference

cool we'll give it a shot

elven bowmen have no armor, dont forget about this ;)

Ive seen Elf bowmen destroy armies, but I think 4 is still a reasonable cost; they're riskier than you give them credit. Much like Mummies and Black Grail, if you can neutralise the bowmen, the heart is torn from the army. Plus shooting isnt always that useful, at least not for all the game.

This is true WarpGhost

i did that to Ghabry's elven bowmen in the tournament

i dont think that 4 pts really heart of the army. for example i constantly use flags + shield which costs me 4 pts and if i loose it it willnt "crush" my army very much.

i think we need to make some tests vs another meele regiments.

and yeah, why horsemen 3/2 ? i may understand 2/3 but 3/2 makes no sense :)

and wtf that heart of voe costs 1pts???? no way it deserves it... pls make it similar to potion - second for free

My regular collection says:

Canon 2/3/3
Bolt Thrower 1/2/2
Vampire 4/5/6
Treeman 1/1/1
Horseman 2/3/3
Ghouls 1/2/2
Mummies: 7/4/4 (cause only the first mummie is strong (+banner))

suggestions?

I'd want to Ghouls tested before putting up their prices; UD has been hamstrung by lack of decent lost-cost troops by the ppoints system up until now (assuming these changes all work), so they really need those the options of quantity where quality doesnt exist. IMO Ghouls frankly modest combat abilities and unreliable Fear (Toughness 4 no armour is actually equal to Toughness 3 and 1 armour, and 2 Strength 3 attacks is nothing to get excited about) are compensated by their poor leadership. Even if they were able to best Swordsmen in 3 out of 4 rounds of combat, that 1 they lose will almost certainly see them flee.

but they cause fear themselves so they most possibly scare off swormen by themselves

i agree for testings with swordmen but need some1 to do that..

ok after few thoughts i have something to add:

Canon 2/3/3
i think its very ok and nice

Bolt Thrower 1/2/2
frankly speaking i think 1 is too much for them. i feel that making them 0 points wouldnt make catastrohpe, cause even they 0 point they will take 1 unit in the battlefield (which is important for orcs) and also costs some money. how do you think about 0/1/(1)2 ?

Vampire 4/5/6
definately yes

Treeman 1/1/1
looks okish for me, 0/1/1/ also looks fine

Horseman 2/3/3
firstly i agreed with warpghost about 3/2 too bad for them. but they probably deserves it! trhey're unbreakable and cause fear. yes they're bad, but usual cavalry not good either. i mean usual cavaly doesnt have very good stats. and i think unbreakle option+fear compemsate their weakness i meele so they should be equal to usual cavalry imo
so i think 3/2/(2)3 is fine. how do you think guys?

Ghouls 1/2/2
i still think they deserves 1/2 as any usual human regiment. any1 wanna test - msg me at hamachi my nickname is skotty119

Mummies: 7/4/4 (cause only the first mummie is strong (+banner))
i personally dont big fun of making them 7 points just because its hurts army so much... i better prefer 6 pts, but i personally dont use mummies in my army anyway so 7 loooks not v bad for me. still love 6/4/4 more

additionally:
Heart of Woe: i think think artifact definately should be the same in cost as potion of strengh and shield.. it works rather rarel, cause most of the time units flee away and not dying. and another thing its not really much powerfull when it explodes.. maybe its dealt as much dmg as 1 zombie regment + fact that it willnt 100% work + gharby said that antimagci spell blocks it makes it 0,4-0,3 value item.


Firehelm - should be 0 point at cost. seems like noone is using it anyway so 0 maybe allow at least SOMEONE who wil take it in the battlefield :)

and i think we still need to make evles to 5. i think they're equal to wights by importance at the battlefield. some other thoughts are in my posts above.

I think Ghouls should remain at 1/1/2 as WarpGhost says they are not that powerful
besides the reason that swordmen/halbardiers and greatswords are all 1/2/2 is because the Empire have 3 forms of cheap units, 1/1/2 for them would give the Empire 6 cheap units. Undead only have Ghouls and Zombies and Zombies are a lottery ticket as best

Ghouls 1/1/2

f*** ive jsut played few abttles agaisnt elves and may definately say they SHOULD cost 5 pts. mayeb they even should cost 6 pts i dunno but 5 AS MIN.

i dunno why do you guys think they're that weak. this rain of arrows just kills everything if they properly blocked (and they usually blocked) the only way to stop them is teleporting kamikaze mage and mortair.
maybe other army with all cavalry and ptolos for some walkers but rest is plain weak.
elvfes archers really heart of the army and thus 5 is obligatory for them

5 would be very costly but elf archers are probebly the strongest unit in the empire army.
i wouldnt mind trying them at 5points

Elven bowmen no more than 5
they can be taken out fast and have no armor at all
if they are to be 5 then no more than 5/5/5
Elven bowmen have a weakness when facing cavalry as the cavalry are too fast to be hit

Beside that elves problem: what about set Wraiths to 4/4/5 or 4/5/6?


I like this item a lot, but if nobody disagree 0,5 is ok for me.

It's for free, if you buy another 0,5 item ;)


4/5/6?
5/6/7?
5/6/6?
5/5/6?
5/5/5?

everything ok for me.

And I'm looking forward to the Ghoul test!

5/4/5 ooks fine for me

as for the wraights i agree. they're too fragiele even for 5 points. but maybe we will turn back them to 5 after battle.

Firehelm - should be 0 point at cost. seems like noone is using it anyway so 0 maybe allow at least SOMEONE who wil take it in the battlefield

which means i have to spent 1 point more.

its so much more value in getting shield or how instead of firehelm... but if we'd make it 0 then some armeis will be able to take it when they've spent all of points but still some moniey left...

Vampire - 6 points
If undeads need a mage - they can buy a necromancer. If they need the best hit'n run unit in DO - they should pay for this :P

vampire is crazy fast and can take a good amount of ranged punishment.i would like to see him increased in points.
necromancer is a strong caster but isnt so crazy fast and is fine on 2points in my opinion.

the heart of woe is a fairly powerfull item if put on an unbreakable unit i thought
i think its explosion is worth at least 1 point...then again i havent used this item often so others will know better.

I don't think mummys on their own are strong. The only thing that makes them strong is the banner of defiance. So i suggest to make mummys 5/4/4 and if you take a defiance ON the mummys it costs 3 points.

so when we change it bembe?

U really wanna set vamp to 5 or 6 points?

i dont like the image that i pay 6 Points for one unit what have to make suicide if the other regiments are down..

for 6 Points u could buy 3 Regiments of Skeletons or maybe 2 with Arkan Banner or Ptoleos Shild.
What brings a Wizzard what cost more than 33% or the whole army if he have to make suicide at the end? :o

4 Points i think are more than enough.

-elves?
-ghouls?
-wraights?
-treeman?

will be changed or we forget about it

There was no final result, so I didn't change them.

Items

Name                  1st  2nd  3rd 
Strength Potion
Enchanted Shield
Dragon Helm          1     0    1 


so..... WE CAN USE MORE THAN 1 OF THESE ITEMS ON 5K15 BATTLES??

(yes its possible, just editing your army replacing the experienced one for a new lvl 1 regiment/s)

no its meant that 1st item from the list will be for 1 pts and second from the lsit for free (no double items).

hell yes :D

btw
Screaming Skull Catapult  Level 1  3  3  4 
should be changed to 2 2 3

absolutely useless regiment, no way it cost 3 for the 1st unit.
i think canon is better (accuracy and rate of fire) but 1 definately not good. 2 points seems ok and little welcome for this unit, cause i actually never met it at the battlefield.

i sugest to change points for troll as following:
2/0
cause even spider better than troll except magci resistance

http://en.dark-omen.org/troops/greenskins/troll.html (http://en.dark-omen.org/troops/greenskins/troll.html)
http://en.dark-omen.org/troops/greenskins/gigantic-spider.html (http://en.dark-omen.org/troops/greenskins/gigantic-spider.html)

Did you check the stats with WH32Edit? (cause fear <=> terror etc.), (perhaps) a 1/2/2 sounds good for me too.

ok I think the 5k/15 is nearly finished. Perhaps could Alavet confirm his last suggestions, then I will add them and we'll have a last 5k/15 tourney as great conclusion.

after all kind of experiments and with experience of other oturnaments i think following changes will be good:
1) troll 2/0 fully ok, since it cost like 480 and noone is going to use it anyway ;-) and even troll is better than spider cause he has bigger # of attacks and magic resistance (but less LS) its okay
2) i think staff of osiris should cost like 3. (see http://forum.dark-omen.org/tournaments/tournament-june-t391.0.html;msg2712#msg2712 (http://forum.dark-omen.org/tournaments/tournament-june-t391.0.html;msg2712#msg2712) where staff kills 4 ghouls in a row with oen shot) - its like a moving canon, but more precise (landscape and death of mage compensate it overpowerness)

the rest is fine

p.s. screaming scull to 2/2/3

Yep, the screaming skull has the shorter range of all ballistic weapons, and the poorer accuracy (but a direct hit is devastating :P )

• 2009-08-10 Screaming Skull Catapult point value was increased to 2/2/3.
• 2009-08-10 Staff of Osiris point value was increased to 3.
• 2009-08-10 Troll point value was decreased to 2/1/1.

I think 2/0/0 is to cheap for a troll (see also the price) can you live with 2/1/1?

Could you please update the point-prices in the wiki?

And one more question...
In this format player cannot buy more than 3 regiments of one type, can he?

The point table are up to date or what do you mean?


Yes you can buy a regiment not more than 3 times, some (like the wraiths) only 2 times.

Afaik there were no new discussions in this topic so we don't have to update the table.
And btw it's a wiki, register and edit things by yourself? ;)

You've decided that Trolls cost 2/0/0, and It's still 2/1/1 in the wiki. Etc.
Or this was only an idea?

There was no answer for this so we count this as a yes.

well... now i think than troll should be 2/1/0.
:-)
and spiders&scorpions as 1/1/0

its not bad to give last third unit a 0 point cause man who will use it will suffer from lack of the meat, while limited in 10max regimetn restiction.

I know that wiki is created for everyone to participate... But when it's about points in a ruleset, then, hey, I'd prefer it to be done by the admin and very carefully :)
Please could you change at least the trolls' costs? I'd like to create an experimental army, with 3 trolls :D (and save one point, which I can't do now)

If I'm serious I don't like the idea of a free troll, but give me the opinion of a third player and it's ok for me^^

another tourney almost finished and results showed that we sitll have some leaks in balance... feel free to add suggestions there

my current ones:

flagellants felt too powerfull. again.
maybe let them be 3/4/3 or 3/4/4/ (last one is too much imo), so they cant dominate 3/10 ruleset  that much as well.

treeman felt also too powerfull
lets change him to 2 so he wilnt be so much attractive

ghouls to 1/2/2 a other infantry
i feel bad about increasing UD more but its matter of balance. i also see lac of low cost units at UD but we cant do much with that?

throwing bolter to 1/2/2. yes its total trash but due of hard pathfinding mechanics + rather good TO it can stay longer than standard goblins or something, using as a wall.

empire standard bowmen to 2/2

flagellants seemed ok to me, 3 is tough but also can fast be overpowered they are after all only 9 and no armor

Treeman is like vampire, you kinda put half your eggs in one basket, if he is killed then most of the time your army is doomed

Undead still suffer from expenisve and weak units, if anything a cheaper skeleton warrior and horsemen are more needed

greenskins seemed ok, as per normal hordes work best and feels best, the change from last time of the arrer from 1/2 to 2/2 seems ok

Flagellants are serioursly overpowered atm, they've become core to almost all empire armies. With the super low gp cost, i can't think of many 3 point combinations that can reliably take them on and win, and 3x 3 point combinations o.0

Thats before adding in the other 6 points.  4/4/4 for average cost, 5/3/3 for a point road block, or 3/5/5 for accepting at least 1 flag is inevitable, but we dont really want more.

Having said that i think empire would need a few point decreases to make up for the loss of flags, -> merc cross 1/3/3, bowmen 1/3/2, maybe a calvary to?

----------------------
Greenskins fine although maybe orc Shaman down to 1 point (only cost diff between gob & orc), gigantic spider 3/0/0 & scorp 1/1/2, gives the option of having 3 creepys for 3 points at a slightly greater expense, or 2 for 2 cheaper.

Orc bolt thrower 1/1/1.
I'd go with troll 2/1/0 they are quite expensive for what they are.

----------------------------------------------
UD need alot of point reductions,

Honest Analysis: This Ruleset is very far to be OK, however people still will "love it", and Im sure that even without changing anything will be voted again and again in future months.

I suppose that changing something depends on Bembelimen, no matters what we wrote here. And if he rejects the idea of Trolls at 2/1/0, and decides that the best is 2/1/1... there is really nothing to do about it.

When you are the Author of a Ruleset its shown how experienced you are in the game, also your level of knowledge with every Regiment and Items performances. When its time for "suggestions", and you are refusing to change something that is obvious, it creates a disappointment feeling among Experimented Players.

Hard words. Reality itself gentlemen.

This post is more to call Benjamin for a "Author remake". Listen these guys who have something to tell you.

IMO i could see changes like this:

empire seems pretty ok as it is

dwarf warriors 1/1/2 - no one uses them
imperial cannon 1/2/2 - same as above
mercenary swordsmen 1/1/2 - as they are the weaker than greatswords and halbardiers (maybe im wrong) and empire could use some more meat shields ;]
imperial bowmen 2/2/3 - as they are very similiar to arrer boyz


undead needs changes the most

wraiths 3/3/3 - their current points are from times when people said that the problem with charge from the rear can be solved by adding them banner of defiance ;] in fact they are not that hard to kill and its a shame you dont see those in battles :(
skeleton horsemen 2/2/2 - undead could use some more mobile units
skeleton warriors 1/1/2 - for such a weak infantry 2 points for 1st unit seems too much
ghouls 1/2/2 - one of the best infatries even thou they often run to range fire
wights 2/2/2 - only one of those is usable if you give him banner of defiance
screaming skull cata 2/2/2 - maybe we would see 3 screaming skulls in battle ;] as for now nobody uses them


greenskins seems to be best balanced race of all, players are using many diffrent combinations so i wouldnt change anything ;]

oh yeah i forgot about bolt thrower! people spam this like crazy, or is it only me ? ;]

Hmm i'd be wary of large amounts of point drops to empire - they should be point constricted, although if flags do go up, maybe a few as compensation.

Wraiths are a bit like the treeman, way over priced for what they actually do (1500 gp - ekk), and could probobly do with a low point tag to match.

Wrights suck

Mummies and BGK Do not suck still they a bit ott on the points 6/5/4 & 8/10/10 instead of 7/4/4 & 9/10/10 maybe?

I have no idea what Jeronimo is on but can i have some? :)

OH! Do you want some of my pipe Darkmancer?! ;) ;) ;)

Perhaps my post sounded crazy, but is real that only bembelimen can change this, since he is the "maker of the Ruleset".
We can only give opinions. Is up to him to consider (and answer) ALL these requests.

Well duh.

So after you stated, that I, as "author of the ruleset", have no clue about it, don't go into suggestions and at all the ruleset is bullshit itself, let me tell you my point of view:

1. yeah, we all know, Fair Omen is the one and only ruleset. Absolutely freedom etc. pp.
2. First of all, when you criticize me, cause I don't respond, you should read this (http://forum.dark-omen.org/news/time-to-take-a-break-t638.0.html)
3. You should also read the post (http://forum.dark-omen.org/rules-and-standards/500015-t252.0.html) itself!! Then you would recognize, that I'm NOT the author of the ruleset. The fame goes to Flak and Alavet. They did the large part of the ruleset (and imho really good)
4. Now you should count all posts, where I rejected a suggestion, when more than one person agreed with it.



5. At the troll suggestion, we had a 2:2 voting, so I asked for a 3rd pro and then I would had changed it. But I never got a 3rd pro...
6. If one person suggest a "improvement", I/we will not change it, we need at least two or more equal meanings about a point change and then we always changed it!!
7. Your post is very disrespectful, you're neither are the Messiah of the ruleset nor my personal critic!

So you can suggest here your improvements, and we'll add them for 100% if other player agree or you can support other suggestions.

We will (like usual) wait, till all suggestions are done, collect them and after we will move them to the wiki, there is no need to change the wiki after each post and reedit points after the 2nd...



And this has only one reason: 5000/15 is easy to understand, easy to implement and easy to play. Perfect for new player and quick games with experienced player.

So and now I will go to my exam, which I have in 15 minutes (see point 2). Have a nice day read the linked posts and then you can try it again.

..Only i'm used black grails+wraiths on tourny? :D

hehe good im actually considering as an author of 5/15 :))
must admit that all basics were made way before, we only helped with tweaking.

what i personally feel that some in-game restrictions could be good for better play..

for example almsot fully restrict special friendly fire (like engage your goblins with banner vs enemy grail and then shooting to grails with all your 5 archers).
the subject of discussion is special manual fire NEAR fighting regiments which i can understand for some reasons, but special friendly fire i think is too much... big discussion can be built on that.. (exception is a wraights or perhars UD army at all, cause they dont feel pain and more importantly dont have any decent range units)


another issue im dreaming of incorporating ONLY auto shoots for mortair/lobber exclusively but maybe you willnt like it at all. But from other hand with manual shots mortairs superior devastating.

What is a Wright exactly? Is it a mix of a Wight and a Wraith? :P

Would have been fun to make mortars and lobbers into AI controlled allies if possible

Collection:

---

Empire

---

Imperial Bowmen 2/2/3
Treeman 2/-/-
Flagellants 3/4/4 or 5/3/3 or 3/5/5 (<= best imho?)
Imperial Cannon 1/2/2


I think Dwarves are one of the most underestimated regiments (compared with other infantry), lack only in speed: 1/1/2 or (1/2/2)?

(http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=lc&chd=t:30,50,30,40,40,10,20,10,90&chco=00ff00&chf=bg,s,000000&chdl=Regiment&chls=2.0,0.0,0.0&chxt=x,y&chxl=0:|MO|WS|BS|ST|TO|WO|IN|AT|LS|1:||1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10&chxs=1,ffffff&chs=540x200&chg=0,10)



mercenary swordsmen are slightly better than the other (WS)

(http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=lc&chd=t:40,40,30,30,30,10,30,10,70&chco=00ff00&chf=bg,s,000000&chdl=Regiment&chls=2.0,0.0,0.0&chxt=x,y&chxl=0:|MO|WS|BS|ST|TO|WO|IN|AT|LS|1:||1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10&chxs=1,ffffff&chs=540x200&chg=0,10)

Countess' Guard:
(http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=lc&chd=t:40,30,30,30,30,10,30,10,70&chco=00ff00&chf=bg,s,000000&chdl=Regiment&chls=2.0,0.0,0.0&chxt=x,y&chxl=0:|MO|WS|BS|ST|TO|WO|IN|AT|LS|1:||1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10&chxs=0,ffffff|1,ffffff&chs=540x200&chg=0,10)

The 1/2/2 has one reason: the play should use countess guard+swordmen+greatswords instead of 3 swordmen for example (when all are 1/1/2)

---

GREENSKINS

---

Orc Bolt Thrower 1/2/2 or 1/1/1
Troll 2/1/0
Ghouls 1/2/2
Spider 1/1/2
Scorpion 1/1/2

---

UNDEAD

---

ghouls 1/2/2
skeleton horsemen 2/4/2 or 2/3/3 or 2/3/2 or 2/2/2
wraiths 4/4/4
Wights 2/2/2 or 2/2/3


Mummies have a banner problem. If you give them the B.o.D. they're nearly as strong as BGK, that's why they have 7 points as first, but without banner I agree, they should have something like 4-6 points (as they have as 2nd and 3rd). It's a small dilemma. Any suggestions?

So I hope I didn't forget something...please comment/suggest

Imperial Bowmen: 2/2/3 - fine
Treeman 2/ -  was dubious but thinking about it fine
Flagellants 3/5/5 - def this one imo
Imperial Cannon - 1/2/2 - def too low, WK's roadbloak with boltthrowers? imangine with something usful like cannon :) - 1/3/3 or 2/2/3 be nicer
Dwarves - i'd go for 1/2/2
merc swors - agree stick with 1/2/2

Note although the points changes above are fair to the units, empire atm is very points restricted, alot more 1 pointers make it alot easier to constuct powerful 1 pointer army sets with plenty left over for powerful units - empire might be to powerful?
----

Greenskins
Ghouls - whoops :p
Troll - thinking about it why's the first one 2 pts?  maybe 1/1/2, 1/2/1, 1/2/0?  I always find trolls quite expensive as they tend to die off easily
scorp & spid 1/1/2 fine

-----

Ghouls 2 1/2/2 agree
wights - 2/3/3 - def
wraiths 4/4/4 - hmm very exspensive skittish units 4 fine for now
skele horse - pain in the arse to value - either scare the enemy of disolve quickly all for 840 gp? 2/3/2, or 2/2/3?

Re Mumies i'd go for 6, - by giving them the B.O.D your removing it use by wights/ghouls, plus at the end of the day with movement 3 you can out manoeuvre/run them with almost everything, i use 2 points for an average unit (1 pointers to build basic army), mummies worth 3/4 units? sounds about right to me.

Yes they have good stats except movement, but m3 makes them only a defensive unit and also loosing a melee fight equals loosing this unit in battle, they cant run and regroup as other m4 units, with their m3 they will be slaughtered by chasing regiment


Im not saying they all should get 1/1/2 but the weakest of the 3, and on paper yes swordsmen got 1 point more in WS, but halbardiers and greatswords got bonuses from weapons what makes them better in battle imo. And making that unit 1/1/2 would give player 4 cheap infantries instead of 3 ;] but i can live whitout that


here ofc my answer will be biased as my favourite armybuilt is based around bolt thrower, so 1/1/1 if anything, 1/2/2 is too much imo


maybe 3/4/5 ?

who buy imperial bowmen i mean 2 2 3 ? they should be 2/1/2 or something  like that but 5 points in total.

bolt tower 1/1/1 yeee
trolls are okay because they are coward like any orc unti and if they rout , they just get masacred.

countless guard 1/1/2

and another thing is, i can not believe skeleton archers with their lack in all stats, and skeleton warrios , both with skeleton flag that make them as paper, are so expensive in points, you should 1/1/2 infantery and 2/1/2 archery or any mi x but 4 and 5 points


ahhh another thingggg  if you vote and play 5/15 okay, but can i suggest to fix the  ogres, wraiths and zombi erros ? cause fear, dont get destry if routed and inmune to fear. in taht way it would be nicer to play 5/15 ...

My apologyses Bembelimen. Didnt remember about your current situation with University. I want to share something with Items, which havent be touched:

I suggest making some Items cost - points or 0 points. Many times you waste points or gold in Items which are not very useful (you would prefer 1 extra regiment).
Was shown in Tournament that preferrible Item with 1 point is always Defiance...

Meanwhile all Regiments will keep their "positive" points value adding x/x/x, with no negative points to make armybuilds easier. Most Items were the problem to solve (to give some attraction when you seek for options).

SWORDS

Grudgebringer -1
Runefang 0
Storm 0
Infernal 0
Skabskrath 1

SHIELDS

Spelleater 1
Enchanted -1
Ptolos 0
Dragonhelm -1

OTHERS

Urgok 10
Potion 1
Heart 0

BANNER

Wrath 6
Arcane 0
Mork 0
Defiance 2

MAGE

Osiris 4
Jet 0
Ashur 0

To sum up:
-1 x 3
0 x 9
1 x 3
2 x 1
4 x 1
6 x 1
10 x 1

EXPLANATIONS

Urgok, Wrath: I guess typical will be -2 use (Dragonhelm + Enchanted Shield), thats why the Items like Wrath or Urgok will end with 4 and 8, with the GOOD diference that you will pay more gold for them (in consideration with old 5k/15).

Staff of Osiris: With the "negative combo" will cost 2, however since this means like 250gc + (250+375), paying later 4 points for Vampire... we can say is better balanced.

Potion of Strength: Why costs 1 point? This is because when the low amount of units in the original game, a average powerful regiment with it, will have enough time to crash at least 2 enemy regiments. Its preety good, I prefer a Potion better to a Sword (relationship: gold--effect).

I think you dont need more explanations, but feel free to ask Jeronimo.
The total -3 points that New System guarantees can also be used for purchasing around +2 regiments or a expensive one (oh yes! I want back that 3rd Flagellant!)

im sorry Jeronimo i dont agree with this at all
Armies with too many Items will lose the balance of the game,
you may have a point in inventing some package deals on items but not extra points

Cost 0: I think this way many armies which have gold left (after spending on regiments) will have something to invest in.

In my opinion Flak, there is NO Balance if you have 500 gold and prefer always a Goblin Infantry +F (450 gold: 1 point) instead of a Ptolos Shield (500 gold: 1 point).

Having as many regiments as you can is always the choice. However with 0 points to most Items, it wont be "Over Itemed" because it depends on the gold left: many items = poor army (bad armybuild).

Also this provides a chance to have some magical proteccion agasint Wrath/Urgok, other strong effects, if you pay 500 gold for every proteccion (Spelleater 1 point).

Cost -1: The idea is to waste your money in order to gain 1 extra point = 625gc.

With things how are now... will you ever see a Grudgebringer Sword in game? (at same 625gc, I will prefer a Infernal Sword 100! times).

About Dragonhelm (250) and Enchanted (375), they are not worth of existance.
However we can do them a together package, having both at -1 point. 375+250=625gc

I've been creating armies with Jeronimos suggested system, it doesn't really work, the only boost it gives are to low cost & high point units, namely ones with flagellant & motars, maybe just undead armies with mummies or BGK.

Now you might have an arguement for making POS, Encharted Shield, dragon helm & grudgebringer sword 0 points, but I don't think your system works well Jero.

True thing: The Tables points have their "free regiments" which cost 0. Thats why certain Items give same benefits (cost 0 or -1).

Do you edit "Quantity" armies? Use "0" benefits of purchasing multiply troops.
The gold runs out at making large numbers of soldiers. Perhaps few Items...

Do you edit "Quality" armies? Use "0" and "-1" benefits of buying cheap pointed Items.
The gold runs out at buying Items with the gold left. Surely few Regiments.
See 5k/15 videos and check that in DO quantity beats quality (if both play similar).

Its working Darkmancer, :)

GS get benefits, the big'uns for example... because are too pointed... "who will pay for 3 big uns?"---In battle they will be owned by large numbers (but now you can give them Swords, something IS something).

NEW ITEM LIST

SWORDS

Grudgebringer -1
Runefang 0
Storm 0
Infernal 0
Skabskrath 1

SHIELDS

Spelleater 1
Enchanted+Dragonhelm -1 (must buy together)
Ptolos 0

OTHERS

Urgok 8
Potion 1
Heart 1

BANNER

Wrath 4
Arcane 0
Mork 0
Defiance 2

MAGE

Osiris 3
Jet 1
Ashur 1

To sum up:
-1 x 2
0 x 6
1 x 6
2 x 1
3 x 1
4 x 1
8 x 1

After some hours of dedication I believe have found the best list of Items for this Ruleset.

I kept some "1 point" costs reducing mainly Swords (because they are expensive for what they do) and Proteccions (because spending 500gc in something that perhaps wont be used, is not attractive). Although Ptolos can be useful, sadly FAILS 50% of times.

keep in mind this is only 5k armies

they arent expected nor spose to have tons of items, thats for 9k

also just out of interest do you have an extra sword? Infernal?

@Flak: Not extra sword :) . Yes I know its for 5k, also that the 2 points Defiance is good, because at 250 there are others items of 1 point (Heart, Wand).

Now the preety nice new list comes in hand with a different 5k/15 tables, which bring up lower prices for best Regiments. Example: Mummy 6 points (since +2 of defiance = 8 ) ;)

Second, in this Neo 5k/15, buying extra armor is allowed.
I never saw good to deny these expensive shields (now perhaps armours to Ogres, Artillery, Wights, Mummies may be considered).

Next Post will show my total review of 5k/15, which in combo with Items above and Allowed Shields, end with a renovated Ruleset.

next one

EMPIRE

Crossbowmen                   3/4/5
Imperial Cannon               3/3/3
Bright Wizard                   2/1/0
Halbardiers                      1/1/2
Bowmen                          2/2/2
Flagellants                       4/5/6
Mortar                             5/5/5
Ogres                              1/1/0
Swordsmen                     1/1/1
Greatswords                    1/2/2
Ice Mage                         2/1/0
Mercenary Cavalry            1/1/1
Pistoleers                         4/5/6
Knights of the Realm        1/1/0
Dwarf Warriors                 1/2/2
Glade Guards                   3/3/3
Wood Elf Archers              6/5/4
Treeman                          2/-/-

GREENSKINS

Goblin Archers                  1/1/2
Goblins                            1/1/1
Spider                             1/1/2
Scorpion                          1/1/2
Goblin Shaman                 1/1/0
Orc Arrers                        2/2/2
Orc Boars                         2/2/3
Orc Boyz                          1/1/1
Orc Big'uns                      2/3/3
Orc Bolt Thrower               1/1/1
Orc Rock Lobber                5/5/5
Orc Shaman                      2/1/0
Troll                                 1/0/1
Goblin Archer w.Fanatic     1/2/2
Goblin w.Fanatic               1/1/2

UNDEAD

Vampire                           5/4/3
Ghouls                             2/3/3
Mummies                         6/5/4
Necromancer                    3/2/1
Scull Catapult                   2/2/2
Skeleton Archers               1/1/1
Skeleton Horsemen           2/2/3
Skeleton Warriors              1/1/0
Black Grail                        8/8/-
Wights                             1/2/3
Wraiths                            2/2/8
Zombies                           1/0/1

I have worked in this list for some hours. Add Item List below to this, Shields allowed, and you get what I call "Neo 5k/15" (for everyone). :D Deep Tweak! :D

SWORDS                     SHIELDS

Grudgebringer -1         Enchanted+Dragonhelm -1 (must buy together)
Skabskrath 1               Spelleater 1
Infernal 0                    Ptolos 0  
Storm 0                              
Runefang 0                OTHERS                      -1 x 2
                                                                   0 x 6
BANNER                     Urgok 10                     1 x 6
                                 Potion 1                      2 x 1
Wrath 5                      Heart 1                       3 x 1
Defiance 2                                                    5 x 1
Mork 0                        MAGE                        10 x 1
Arcane 0                    Osiris 3              
                                   Jet 1
                                 Ashur 1
 
Aclaration: Here I did Wrath (+1 to 5), same as 1 artillery mortar, take into account that anti-magics cost 0 point. Also Urgok was changed (+2 to 10), because is obviously better than 1 BGK which cost is 8...

i actually very like Jeronimo suggestions even thouhg diagree with some minor items:

potion&HoW to 0
banner of wrath definately not 4 maybe 5 or so
banner of antimagic to 1 still

rest is prefectly fine


Empire

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Imperial Bowmen 2/2/3      FINE
Treeman 2/-/-                     FINE
Flagellants 3/4/4 or 5/3/3 or 3/5/5 (<= best imho?)           3/4/5 as wk suggested is good
Imperial Cannon 1/2/2          its heavilly map dependant, at some maps canons is better than crossbowmen and could be fine ever for 3 points (like empire map or training camp) but at some its very bad.
so my suggestion is 2/1/2 if we want to reduce cost in any way.

Swordmen are fine at 1/2 i think they're fine at the moment.
dwarves to 2/1/1-2 possibly better decision or 1/2 not a big problem if we want to "introduce" them to fights.

GREENSKINS

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Orc Bolt Thrower 1/2/2 or 1/1/1 by my opinion it should be 1/2/1 still, wk army good example of terribad DO pathing, whenhe can process arrow shower for your troops while you try to pass these artillery
Troll 2/1/0     idk, trolls seems better than scorpions but they cost so much more, so i dont think making them 1/2/2 is too catastrophic


UNDEAD
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ghouls 1/2/2 agreed
skeleton horsemen 2/4/2 or 2/3/3 or 2/3/2 or 2/2/2     2/3/2 seems fien for me. excatly showing their perfomance - paper unit but fast and cause fear, but fear not superior deciding factor there since all UD have it... and it costs a lot for 3 pts as well.
wraiths 4/4/4       perhars too much but i can live with that. be prepaired for lotsa crying there, though
Wights 2/2/2 or 2/2/3    2/2/2 good!

Allright, here I go again. I will remake Items List, because after testing some armybuilds, it shows me that is very convenient to buy Grudgebringer Sword (-1)... so no more extra points.

SWORDS

Grudgebringer 0
Runefang 1
Storm 1
Infernal 1
Skabskrath 1

SHIELDS

Spelleater 2
Enchanted 0
Ptolos 1
Dragonhelm 0

OTHERS

Urgok 10
Potion 0
Heart 1

BANNER

Wrath 5
Arcane 1
Mork 1
Defiance 2

MAGE

Osiris 3
Jet 1
Ashur 1

To sum up:
0 x 4
1 x 10
2 x 2
3 x 1
5 x 1
10 x 1

@Alavet: HoW cost 1 because is very useful for UD or HU. It can do lots of damage if you know how to play it :), Im ok with PoS at 0, sometimes is wasted, or regiment retreats during CC.
This is best List IMO removing the "extra-point" idea.

Remember guys: Shields allowed! (good for Ogres, Artillery, Wights, Mummies)

An obviously renovation of Neo 5k/15, without the "extra point idea" bothering around.
I remember ALL their stats, so each relation was comparing their performances and costs.

EMPIRE

Crossbowmen                   2/3/3
Imperial Cannon               2/2/2
Bright Wizard                   2/1/0
Halbardiers                      1/1/2
Bowmen                          1/2/2
Flagellants                       3/4/5
Mortar                             4/4/3
Ogres                              1/1/2
Swordsmen                     1/1/0
Greatswords                    1/2/2
Ice Mage                         2/1/0
Mercenary Cavalry            1/2/2
Pistoleers                         3/4/5
Knights of the Realm        1/1/2
Dwarf Warriors                 1/2/2
Glade Guards                   2/3/3
Wood Elf Archers              5/5/3
Treeman                          2/-/-

GREENSKINS

Goblin Archers                  1/1/1
Goblins                            1/1/0
Spider                             1/1/2
Scorpion                          1/1/2
Goblin Shaman                 1/0/1
Orc Arrers                        1/2/2
Orc Boars                         2/2/3
Orc Boyz                          1/1/0
Orc Big'uns                      2/2/3
Orc Bolt Thrower               1/1/1
Orc Rock Lobber                4/4/3
Orc Shaman                      1/1/0
Troll                                 1/1/0
Goblin Archer w.Fanatic     1/2/2
Goblin w.Fanatic               1/1/2

UNDEAD

Vampire                           4/3/2
Ghouls                             2/2/3
Mummies                         6/4/3
Necromancer                    2/1/0
Scull Catapult                   2/2/2
Skeleton Archers               1/1/1
Skeleton Horsemen           2/2/3
Skeleton Warriors              1/1/0
Black Grail                        8/7/-
Wights                             1/2/2
Wraiths                            3/4/6
Zombies                           1/0/1

I made armybuilds with this and all they work fine... I invite you to try it.:);):D;D
The possibility of editing "interesting & workful" Armies increases a 200%. :);):D;D

-cavalry way way too low, esp comparing to UD, ogres to 2, they're really tough;
dunno why u differ haldebalders/swordmen/greatsword - they're literally the same stats

i udnerstand u gave cavalry & ogres 1 point since they're very costly btu still

-oblins << orc boyz

-thrower to 1/2/1?

-orc lobber worse than mortair despite of range

either ghouls/skeletons too costly. this is a core and they tat bad? also skeleto narchers have same stats as skeltons but u lower them??

wights to , since with BOD they like a stone wall

jeronimo is doing his best to destroy the ruleset hoping we'll play his methinks :)

i have to say i felt 5k/15 was a relatively well balanced ruleset
this has more the feel of a new one that a few balancing suggestions
any such drastic changes i am certainly firmly against

i aint sayn what your doing wont work jeronimo in it its own way but its not 5k-15 when its so drasticly changed
then id rather keep the classical 5k-15 and change nothing than change this much

Goblins are weaker than orc boyz, thats why they cost 270 (20 units) in comparison with 360 (16 units) of orc boyz. So, they are already balanced (considering stats), same pointing.

Consider their Natural gold cost. What we can do is giving Orc boyz 1/1/1 (360gc) and Mercenary Infantry 1/1/1 too (435 gc, these guys have just +1stat and cost more).

Wights with BoD would be 1300gc and 3 points, that although is a "wall" still loses against 1 flagellant. Not to mention how they suck vs Big uns...

Bolt Thrower to 1/2/1 ok nice. Mortar keeps 4/4/3, however Lobber becomes 4/3/4.

Skeleton<>Goblins : Same stats, but with Skeleton Flag and lower amount of units make them have the worst price of DO.   270/300 (goblins)    450/540 (skellies, super wrong)

Skeleton Flag counters the "cause fear" bonus they have, without mentioning that BS of Skellies archers is 2, when goblins archers have 3...

Humans fast regiments: if Ogres and cavalries arent "cheap point", you will end buying elf glade runners again to support (2/3/3 and only 525gc).
KotR= 1350gc x 2 point= 2700, are 2 knights better than a Treeman cost 2 and 2700 gc?

At least I consider that Mercenary cavalry has +1 Initiative, so 1/2/2.
Ogres are similar to a Knights of Realm in performance, thats why both are 1/1/2, I still would bet for Knights better, but ogres x2 you spend 2400 and have 300gc free to use.

Also notice how Wizards cost less points if you mass them, its a kind of bad armybuild to have 3+ Wizards in same army... At least you can consider now, doing some weird combos with staff of osiris.


Sorry, I didnt feel it that way. Keeps the heart of 5k/15, max 3 regiments determined with points... although it needed many tweaks, not only to fix some imba armybuilds, also to allow those "never buy this" regiments.


The problem always seem to be "ohh no! Jeronimo comes again to change everything".
But, instead of making the "parrot posts" where I write, write, write, I prefer to show the tables which is faster and you can get the General Idea of how all mechanics work (relations between themselves).


Im here to listen and answer any commentary.
Improving a Ruleset is work that can take ages... I just did a big jump to future.
Im not really afraid of getting deeper into structure, the goal system is what matters.
Didnt do this super-tweak for me, actually is for everyone (otherwise wouldnt have bothered and keep at my house with my FO...)

Why not simply call this for 5k\15 Neo instead of ruining 5k\15?
That way people can vote to play it in the next tournament, or if they prefer they can vote for the 5\15 ruleset.
5\15 is probably the most balanced rulesets so far, and I feel that it is past the point where major changes should be done, and only small adjustments are needed.

I feel that this thread has been derailed a bit.

Should we split off the posts on this latest discussion into a new thread/rule set, and if so, what should the rule set be called?

Im not ruining 5k/15 Grend. I did a big suggestion for Structure/Items.
@Mika: No thanks, new Ruleset is not what I have in mind these days.
The stupid name I chose, is for comparing with the one existing in Wiki.

I did not mean to offend using the phrase ruin
but I still feel like this should be separated though.
What you are saying is making sense though, it will make a larger portion of the avalaoble items used and that is a good thing, but just unsure of what other effects it will have on the system. Even small changes can cause huge changes in the meta-game and thus make things very different without anyone realizing it when the changes are done.

Yes, I understand my behaviour also wasnt the best.
It was foolish of my part to practically Jeronimize the Ruleset. :)

However, I think the Items List should be implemented.
The process began when I saw Horn of Urgok at 10 points (good to me because of BGK), thinking what is possible to create with the 3 Races + HoU. As result, I did the "deep tweak" in order to have some "cheap point meat" to fulfill "Horn Armies" (these is 1 of reasons that motivated me).

POST 1000  :)

As Grend says even small changes does big things, just look how Treeman flaggelant armies where suddenly the big thing last tournament because treemanwas cut down t 1 pts. Before treeman was 1 it never happened

Now imagine the uncontrollable scale of this many untested changes, its got more the taste of a remake that a balancing act.

If thise changes as suggested is "a jump to future" then let me stay in the past with what works relatively well

Everything cannot be balanced either, there has to be room for inventing new army builds and unexpected army builds

Conclusion for regiments:

---

Empire

---

Imperial Bowmen 2/2/3 - accepted
Treeman 2/-/- - accepted
Flagellants 3/4/5 - accepted?
Imperial Cannon 1/3/3 2/2/3 2/1/2 - still 3 opinions
dwarf 2/1/2 - accepted?

---

Greenskins

---

Orc bolt throwser 1/2/2 1/1/1 - still 2 opinions
Troll 2/1/0 - accepted
Spider 1/1/2 - accepted
Scorpion 1/1/2 - accepted

---

Undead

---

Ghouls 1/2/2 - accepted
Skeleton horsemen 2/3/2 - accepted?
wraiths 4/4/4 - accepted
wights 2/3/3 2/2/2 - still 2 opinions

---

Items

---

coming soon...

So please talk about the orange and red undecided regiments  ;D

My opinion:

Accept them all

Cannon 2/1/2

Bolt thrower 1/1/2 1/1/1 :)

wights 2/2/2

flagellants 3/4/5
imperial cannon 2/1/2
orc bolt thrower 1/1/1
skeleton horsemen 2/3/2
wights 2/2/2

dwarfs 1/2/2 imo 2 points for 1st unit is too much

Same as Darkmancer about Regiments. Except Dwarves to 1/2/2

About Items, I suggest following changes:

SWORDS

Grudgebringer 0 (an eye of the face for a miserable fireball)
Runefang 0 (really bad sword, only wielder hits "stronger")
Storm 1
Infernal 1
Skabskrath 1

SHIELDS

Spelleater 1
Enchanted 0
Ptolos 1
Dragonhelm 0

OTHERS

Urgok 8
Potion 1 (I do think a well used PoS in 5k Armies can kill over 2 enemy regiments, too cheap--good effect)
Heart 0 (this will help Skeleton Boom tactic, since they werent changed to be more accesible)

BANNER

Wrath 4
Arcane 1
Mork 1
Defiance 2 (come on, this cant be at 1 point costing 250gc :), it was in almost every Armybuild)

MAGE

Osiris 3
Jet 1
Ashur 1

All this would be:
0 x 5
1 x 10
2 x 1
3 x 1
4 x 1
8 x 1

Thanks for reading my suggestion

hi, my option:

Empire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Imperial Bowmen 2/2/3 - accepted
Treeman 2/-/- - accepted
Flagellants 3/4/5 - accepted
Imperial Cannon 2/2/3 <<<
dwarf 2/1/2 <<<


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greenskins
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Orc bolt throwser 1/2/1 <<<
Troll 1/2/0 <<<due of high cost
Spider 1/1/2 - accepted <<<
Scorpion 1/1/2 - accepted <<<


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Undead
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ghouls 1/2/2 - accepted
Skeleton horsemen 2/3/2 - accepted
wraiths 4/4/4 - accepted. but still doubt its what we need.
wights 2/2/2  <<<


ITEMS/

agreed with Jero, but to consider
Skrabash is still need to consider for balance. Its very costly but very effective... 1 is a must but 2 also not too much bad..

p.s. looking at the thread star, it seems reasonable to allow more than 3 zombies/goblins per game. i.e. 1 bgk and tonns of zombies or wraiths + zombies or soemthing..
that way we can try points:

Zombies: 1/0/1/1/0
Goblins: 1/1/0/0/0

ANOTHER IMPORTANT RULE I WISH TO IMPLEMENT:

(besides autofire for mortairs)

to remove false/semifalse charges completely (except against manual mortair shots). i feel UD kinda weakish now mainly becase lots of peopel just negating UD "fear" check status when they charge preliminary where enemy regiment is near.

so for exampel ghouls going for attack archers and in 1-2 seconds before starting charge, but archers can start charge by themselves so no fear check will take effect.

thats weakens spiders/scorptions and whole UD army.

and i understand its part of micro and "pro" trick and i try to do it as well but its "unfair" and should be avoided...

@Alavet: About Skabskrath, if it were at 2 points, I would always pick Banner of Defiance (if is changed to 2 points).
Its because of its cost that I keep it at 1 point. Vampire + Skabskrath (=4+1 points), but if its at 2 points... I ll prefer a Grudbringer Sword on him (=4+0 points) :) , and then a Potion of Strength?

Im not for the suggestion of NO false charge: One of the reasons is the UGLY pathfinding, a regiment is about 10 sec to charge a enemy at his side... the best way is to "rotate" + "false charge" if you dont want to ANGRY too much with DO slow Engine.

UD too powerful vs GS with their fear. Anyway, I havent had problems with the way we currently play, in fact, the other day I had a battle with my brother, and he did false charges, failed, and then I charged his flanks ;D

Auto fire: I love it. Its the Kamikatapult move/Its the way to make Wraiths work properly/Its the way to deal with BGK if you army has no good melee/Manual shooting is the only way to use 100% mortars, even cannons.
Shooting at marching Troops is not easy task (except xbowen, Pistoliers). Archers are kinda useless (2 points)

I guess you have had bad Experiences. If perhaps BGK down to 8/7 (my suggestion) and mummies to 6/5/4, all those auto-fire tactics wont be so annoying. BGK after all, is a fragile Regiment and many mummies can be routed since only 1 may have BoD at 2 points :( ...

wow just wow ^^

alavet dont know why would you ever want to implement rules like that

with all your suggestions implemented for me DO would be boring as hell, as im not that into all-infantry based armies :( i already feels guilty when i have to do a teleport with mage and teleport back (yeah i know its unhonorable and all) but watching as my archers shoots behind enemy regiment that are moving toward me and being forced not to do anything to help this situation and than being forced for a second time to take a charge and give the bonuses that comes from it to enemy ?

maybe just propose your own ruleset instead alavet ? no arty no mages no ranged only clicking on enemy regiments allowed etc :P

//im open for other opinions as well.. :-)

as for cancel autofire it has 2 issues
1) to stop firendly fire as it at tabletop
2) and/ OR restrict manual fire shoots for mortair. because its wow deadfull

dont know if its relevant but check 4:38 :]

Braveheart:Last battle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xcqWJHG_5Q#)

sometimes you sacrifice few in order to save many

Flagellants 3/4/5 accepted
Imperial Cannon 2/2/3 accepted
dwarf 1/2/2 - suggested

Orc bolt throwser 1/2/2 accepted
Skeleton horsemen 2/2/3 - suggested
wights 2/3/2 suggested

Items
1 pts
Spelleater, Ptolos, Arcane, Mork, Jet, Ashur, Grudgebringer, Runefang, Storm, Hellfire, Skabskrath, Defience (1 reliable regiment is often needed, esp for greenskins and none flaggelant human armies)

3pts
Osiris

4pts
Wrath

8pts Horn

0 pts
Potion, Enchanted, Woe, Dragonhelm

NO Tactical rules
The player is the commander he can use his units as he wants to, it is war after all. weather that is charge due to slow moving regiments, well placed artillery and bow shots, why not try to hit the enemy? you payed to have artillery and archers, or target own regiments to kill a superior enemy like BGK

The beauty of 5k-15 is and should be that after the armies have been made you have freedom to use that army just the way you planned when you made it.

Items & Rules

Agree with Flak except

I'd prefer HOW at 1 point (to much of a no brainer for undead), and book of ashur at 0 points - 375gp for another spell does it require a extra point when your casting at full mp cost?

OT:



lol, you got me.

reminded me some poker thread(check it if you're familar with rules of poker)
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=132560 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=132560)

i guess i can agree to that also darkmancer

aha, so you're going to limit super costly (both at points and prices) UD with even less options?

not my idea to make Ghouls more costly, i think thats silly and but atleast with Defiance kept at 1 pts will help UD to make Wights and mummies stronger

or what do you mean alavet

Im talkibg about HoW.

HoW is worse than zombie pack usually. with this "boom" effect you kinda expect to see same casualities as lobber hit, but actualy, it usually kills 3-5 units and sometimes nothing...

Then get another zombie pack.  The undead are getting several point drops on higher end units so hopefully we'll see more of those in future matches, also rerember if HOW goes down to 0 points its fairly certain it'll find its way onto flagellants.

1 point doesn't remove HOW from the game it was used in the last tourny i suspect it'll still be used in future ones.

no thats right Woe is not worth 1 pts, its simply too uncertain how it will work sometimes as you say no effect at all

i guess the problem is a 1 pts its not really worth buyn but at 0 pts only gold its too good not to buy if theres gold left

Many suggestions and points of view... when Benjamin has free time to revise this thread, he will finally set up if HoW will be at 1 or 0 points (same as others things, like BoD).

I suggested BoD at 2 points, mainly would work to make mummies, wights, Biguns -1point in some part.
For example: what about Big'uns 2/3/2?... Sounds nice.

Thats all concerning to my opinions. Now is time to make final adjustments, dont you think?

I doubt this will be final considering all the changes made

In general I agree with Flak, that rulesets itself shouldn't restrict player in a psychological way, but what about creating psychological building blocks?

For example:

resctricted

- no teleport
- no false charge
- not more than one archer
- [...]

loosen

- teleport allowed
- false charge allowed
- unlimited number of archers (within the ruleset)
- [...]

and then you can combine a "physiological" ruleset with a "psychological" restriction:

5000/15 restricted


At least we have plenty of time for discussing and it makes no sense to change the wiki without having all points clear.


Again, it's not me who decide, it's everyone here who post in the thread.....majority rules etc.  ;)

I think this idea has merits.

Rather than an explosion of rule sets, take what we have that we know works well and modularise. So the rules for a game is really a selected set of rule modules.

What we have (f.i.):
* 3k/10
* 5k/15
* 9k/30

What we could also have
* "Restricted"
* "Normal"
* "Lax"
* "No items"
* "No artillery"

So a tournament could be f.i. "3k/10 restricted", "9k/15 lax no items" etc etc ior any other combination. That means that at tournaments we could vote for army size as well as rules.

Imperial cannon and Orc Bolt Thrower are still undecided....I updated the other one in the wiki

* 2010-04-13 Imperial Bowmen point value was decreased to 2/2/3.
* 2010-04-13 Treman point value was increased to 2/-/-.
* 2010-04-13 Flagellants value was increased to 3/4/5.
* 2010-04-13 Dwarf Warriors value was decreased to 2/1/2.
* 2010-04-13 Troll value was decreased to 2/1/0.
* 2010-04-13 Gigantic Spider value was decreased to 1/1/2.
* 2010-04-13 Giant Scorpion value was decreased to 1/1/2.
* 2010-04-13 Ghouls value was increased to 1/2/2.
* 2010-04-13 Skeleton Horsemen value was switched to 2/3/2.
* 2010-04-13 Wights value was decreased to 2/2/2.
* 2010-04-13 Wraiths  value was decreased to 4/4/4.