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Which are the real Black Grail Knights?

[Jeronimo]

I have this doubt, so I asked Olly and he recommended me to post about this.

Checking with Editor, the BGK in singleplayer has "cause terror", meanwhile in multiplayer has "cause fear".

Which is the real feature for them (all others attributes are ok, even with Leadership Check in both BGK versions).

I have 2 theories:
If real is "cause terror", they put them "cause fear" to make them less powerful in multiplayer battles.
If real is "cause fear", they put them "cause terror" to make them  more powerful in campaign mission.

I need the knowledge of the TT players of this game. What does editions say about BGK? Thank you.

[Flak]

I know that the Black Grails in singleplayer has 14 shields of armor aswell aspose to max 5 in multiplayer

[Darkmancer]

I know that the Black Grails in singleplayer has 14 shields of armor aswell aspose to max 5 in multiplayer

Really? shouldn't that make them undestroyable?

google brings up the sixth edition form:
http://webspace.webring.com/people/du/um_8136/whfb6/black-grail-knights.html

[Jeronimo]

Yes, I already knew about 14 shields... but it matters to me if has "cause fear or terror" in the real warhammer top games.

[Mr Shadow]

As far as I am aware the Black Grail Knights hasn't been an official Warhammer unit for a long time, if it ever was!
Someone with a deeper knowledge of Warhammer lore please correct me 

The link that you have posted Darkmancer, while a rather interesting rule set, seems Fan-made to me.
The thing is; the application of Terror vs. Fear seem to be very different in Dark Omen than in the tabletop game,
and rightly so perhaps, cause Terror in Warhammer is very potent indeed.

I'm not sure what to say, but I think Fear is more than enough in multiplayer for a unit that's already much too powerful.

/Mr Shadow

[Jeronimo]

I just want the truth man. Perhaps Mikademus knows... causes "fear or terror" in TT games?

@Mr. Shadow: Beyond the multiplayer performance, I only want to clear out this doubt

[alavet]

absolutely didnt knew grails jsut cause fear at multiplayer.

as far as i udnerstand "cause terror" performs additional moral check every round, but fear only does this for the first atatcking round.

if thats true  i really amazed how actually strong BGK so they push enemies so hard that flee that much!

[Grend]

Its probably fear I think. Ive never heard of a unit with more than one model that causes terror in the TT, without some magic item of some sort. This may have been different in earlier editions though.

Besides I find it to be beside the point as in multiplayer, balance should take presidence over factual accuracy in my opinion.

[Mikademus]

I think there might a slight confusion of terminology here. First of all, the army lists generally lists "black knights", which are not a rare unit for the Vampire Counts, and are not the same as Black GRAIL Knights. Black Knights are the undead hoard's normal heavy knight follow the generic undead rules, which means that they cause fear, and only fear.

The Black Grail Knights are not listed in any of my normal army lists (2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th or 7th). They may have been listed in a number of White Dwarf, but that I don't know. Apparently, they're a group of Bretonian Grail Knights of the highest order that by some means were twisted into their antithesis and exude an almost irresistible fear. That is, they cause terror. The 7th ed undead lists have "Blood Knights", which are heavy knights turned into vampires and to darkness. These are super-powerful, but still not as mighty as the BGK and do not cause terror.

There are internet resources that place them in the 6th ed (f.i. http://webspace.webring.com/people/du/um_8136/whfb6/black-grail-knights.html and http://www.theoldsage.com/whfb6/black-grail-knights.html - same data) where they are simply reanimated Grail Knights, and only cause fear. This appears to reflect them having been normalised into the standard lists.

Normally in the WH rules only huge units, some character models and some engines of war cause terror. However, there is nothing in the rules against that a regiment could cause terror.

In the game they're intended to be truly fearsome beings that are capable of meeting an entire army by themselves. As such, they should be terror-inspiring. However, in being hugely powerful AND a regiment, they'd simply be too overwhelming in a MP fight as terrifying. We can probably consider MP Black Grail Knights to simply be "normal" reanimated grail knights (== fearsome), while the in-game ones are THE Black Grails, the original, twisted daemonic evil badass mounted tanks of sheer vileness they are (== terrifying).

[olly]

Wicked!

[Mikademus]

It even appears that the Black Grail Knights might be the invention of (or first introduced in) Dark Omen

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/205698.page#214705

[lordbraprus]

i know this is quite old :$ but have you considerated that black grial, are in some point , reanimated  bretonian knights and the blood dragon of vampire counts, are reanimaed bretonian knights and, cause fear + panic test is enought.

[Mikademus]

To "Lordbraprus"
Subject "Request for clarification"
Message "I have no idea what you are saying or asking there..."

[alavet]

To "Lordbraprus"
Subject "Request for clarification"
Message "I have no idea what you are saying or asking there..."

lol, exactly my thought process

[lordbraprus]

you both hurt my feelings.

i trying to say that black grials are blood dragon, in thevampire counts 7th edition of warhamer, because blood dragon are ex-dead bretonian knights, and the black grial are that too, dead bretonian knights, in this case, the grial knights :S

Alavet, i thought you loved me,  now i see you are cheating me with mika..

Mika , i was going to cheat alavet with you , but i see it is too late.

PS:  maybe a 3some can fix any love triangle problems between us ?