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Author Topic: Units speed in Dark Omen  (Read 2085 times)
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cuthalion
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« on: April 27, 2015, 08:13:40 PM »

I tested units speed a bit and noticed that my Cavalry with movement=3 moved at the same pace as cavalry with movement=4. The only other difference in stats was initiative: 5 vs 4.
So as far as I understood both movement and initiative affect speed of units.
Also, cavalry and infantry speed differ: cavalry with speed=4 moves at about the same pace as infantry with speed=7.

Does anyone have more details on that? How come that initiative actually influences speed?
As I noticed, elven infantry has both higher movement and higher initiative than human one. But I would not like infantry to run like crazy in DO Smiley
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olly
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« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2015, 06:06:53 PM »

I think I already mentioned that Jeronimo found Initiative allows the Unit to navigate better and turn better, so that perhaps makes them get to their destination faster, will have to test.

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EvgenS
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« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2016, 10:52:45 PM »

Has initiative been tested?
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cuthalion
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« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2016, 12:23:21 PM »

Yes,
In Dark Omen, initiative affects the rate at which a regiment turns.
That said, if two regiments have the same speed, a regiment with higher initiative will move faster across the battle field.

Additional info:
If we compare a treant (i=2, mv=6) vs a vampire (i=7 or 8, mv = 6), we see that vampire accelerates much faster. Also, as there is usually no straight way between A and B, units have to turn slightly every now and then, and at each such turn vampire increases the gap between him and treant.
Vampire may even overtake a cavalry regiment (mv = 7), though if both units move along a straight line, cavalry seems to move a bit faster as it should be.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2016, 12:33:49 PM by cuthalion » Logged
EvgenS
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« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2016, 01:07:56 PM »

Yes,
In Dark Omen, initiative affects the rate at which a regiment turns.
That said, if two regiments have the same speed, a regiment with higher initiative will move faster across the battle field.

Additional info:
If we compare a treant (i=2, mv=6) vs a vampire (i=7 or 8, mv = 6), we see that vampire accelerates much faster. Also, as there is usually no straight way between A and B, units have to turn slightly every now and then, and at each such turn vampire increases the gap between him and treant.
Vampire may even overtake a cavalry regiment (mv = 7), though if both units move along a straight line, cavalry seems to move a bit faster as it should be.
If i understand correct:
I (Initiative) - influences movement acceleration and maneuvering(turn) speed of a regiment (and also who strikes first in combat round)
M (movement) -  influences only movement speed of a regiment

There also could be a possiblity that single Vampire vs Cavalry regiment is not an equal in terms of maneuvering since Vampire is alone character in regiment and cavalry has many model ranks.

As to the Reborn project, IMO it would be more realistic(proper) that Unit's(regiment's) acceleration and maneuvering speed is influenced by its files number (i.e. formation consisting of ranks (along the width of the Unit) and files (along the length of the Unit)).
For instance, unit of 8 models in formation 2-2-2-2 (column) will be more "agile" than the same size unit in formation 4-4 (2 lines).
For this we will have to implement "formation switching" like was in SOTHR but in more user friendly manner by drag and drop.
This is not top priority feature but mere idea.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2016, 03:50:34 PM by EvgenS » Logged

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cuthalion
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« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2016, 01:13:49 PM »

Yes, this appears to be a correct view on initiative and speed.
Yes, it is more correct to compare a vampire to a treant, and to compare orc boar boyz (i=2) to a human cavalry(i=4). In both cases, it is notable that a regiment with higher initiative turns faster, gains speed faster. The latter is particularly notable when you order a unit to move in the opposite direction to the one it was moving: It takes much longer to a low initiative unit to regroup and start moving backwards.

As for initiative in combat, yes, we hope it influences 'first strike'. No confirmed info about it, as DO modding was database modding to the most part, and low level battle mechanics are hidden. But all players who had rich experience with modded campaigns - with dwarves, elves etc - note that high initiative units (elven wardancers) strike first.
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EvgenS
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« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2017, 07:12:35 PM »

Yes,
In Dark Omen, initiative affects the rate at which a regiment turns.
That said, if two regiments have the same speed, a regiment with higher initiative will move faster across the battle field.

I can't confirm that Initiative affects turn(wheel/reform) rate.
From my numerous tests Initiative affects only unit maximum(real) speed, i.e. after acceleration.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DPYlcmzMyc

Additional info:
If we compare a treant (i=2, mv=6) vs a vampire (i=7 or 8, mv = 6), we see that vampire accelerates much faster. Also, as there is usually no straight way between A and B, units have to turn slightly every now and then, and at each such turn vampire increases the gap between him and treant.
Vampire may even overtake a cavalry regiment (mv = 7), though if both units move along a straight line, cavalry seems to move a bit faster as it should be.

I would not compare Vampire vs Treeant as they are different in terms of model size (normal vs large correspondignly).

Also, one-model unit behaves differently than multi-models unit, so unit-size affects turn (wheel/reform) speed
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EvgenS
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« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2017, 07:16:38 PM »

I tested units speed a bit and noticed that my Cavalry with movement=3 moved at the same pace as cavalry with movement=4. The only other difference in stats was initiative: 5 vs 4.


Cavalry unit movement (M) value does not affect its speed. Its mount does affect cavalry unit speed and mount M value is more likely hardcoded (tested in WHeditor)

Also noticed in WHeditor that Chariot has M8 and no mount, thus its M value affects its speed (unlike cavalry with mount) 
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cuthalion
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« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2017, 09:03:06 AM »

As far as i remember (it's been a while) there is a clumsy hardcode of cavalry speed:
It checks unit armor. If unit has what editor refers to as 'mounted armor', then speed is hardcoded and equals to infantry speed 7 regardless of what you set in Mv.
But you can make cavalry type, non-zero mount byte (horse or boar), just set them regular armor: 0 through 4. Then you set mv = 9 (for wolfriders) and they run fast. Ijust hope that no 'mounted armor' does not prevent such unit from being a cavalry in all fight checks. It works properly in ctl though and no reason to suspect worse at lower code levels.

Addon: mounted armor may influence certain combat situations, like polearm infantry  cancels its bonus or something like that. But there is no other choice atm to make faster or slower cavalry.
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EvgenS
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« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2017, 06:43:35 PM »

double post
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 06:55:36 PM by EvgenS » Logged

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EvgenS
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« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2017, 06:44:43 PM »

As far as i remember (it's been a while) there is a clumsy hardcode of cavalry speed:
It checks unit armor. If unit has what editor refers to as 'mounted armor', then speed is hardcoded and equals to infantry speed 7 regardless of what you set in Mv.

Very interesting info... Now I understand why cavalry becomes slower if you set its armor from "mounted" to "usual" armor in WHedit. It starts using its unit M speed (which is 4 by default).
Same goes with infantry, if you set its armor to "mounted" it becomes veery slow since it starts using hardcoded mount speed which infantry does not have. But if you set infantry mount (horse) it becomes fast.
Here is in-game test video which demostrates default cavalry, cavalry with "usual" armor and cavalry with "mounted" armor but no horse.  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o31dWknOmt4

I also confirm that cavalry hardcode speed equal M7. Here is another in-game test:
https://youtu.be/Yg2TYf8zVZ0?t=280

But you can make cavalry type, non-zero mount byte (horse or boar), just set them regular armor: 0 through 4. Then you set mv = 9 (for wolfriders) and they run fast. Ijust hope that no 'mounted armor' does not prevent such unit from being a cavalry in all fight checks. It works properly in ctl though and no reason to suspect worse at lower code levels.

Addon: mounted armor may influence certain combat situations, like polearm infantry  cancels its bonus or something like that. But there is no other choice atm to make faster or slower cavalry.
I do not remember in TT rules that being a cavalry type gives unit any checks in combat and I presume that there is none in DO too. In TT, Mount just gives unit(models) +1 armor save, equivalent of 1 armor shield in DO.  

I am also sure that all cavalries in DO has barded horse due to the facts that:
- cavalry may have up to 5 armor shields which is equivalent of +2 save in TT available only to rider in heavy armor+shield and mounted on horse with barding.
- cavalry speed is M7 which is due to barding (though, if you upgrade armor to 5 shields M has to become 6 which is not the case in DO)

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« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 07:07:14 PM by EvgenS » Logged

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"- Our steam tank has been damaged, can you help us?
- I'm not a mechanic..."
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