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Author Topic: 5 Unknown Psychology Attributes  (Read 16462 times)
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olly
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« on: September 01, 2009, 11:29:52 PM »

As we know, there are still 5 Unknown Psychology Attributes that can be seen in WH32Edit



Interestingly Shadow of the Horned Rat's Psychology Attributes are:

CantDie....CantMelee...AlwaysPursue....CantRally...MagicResistent..PsyImmune...
HateSkaven..HateGreens..HateDwarfs..FearToGobs..
CauseTerror.CauseFear...Frenzy..CantBreak

Therefore Dark Omen may also use Always Pursue and never Rally that could be 2 possible unknowns, pending further tests.

Maybe HateSkaven could have been included for the never released Dark Omen Addon, (or Extra Mission Disks)

However, I have made some initial tests by creating 2 armies to fight against each other. My Empire army has all Merc Cavalry but half of them have the first Unknown(the one after cause fear) ticked and saved. They will fight against an army of Goblins to see if any effects can be seen that may indicate what, if any effect the first unknown Psychology Attribute may do. Hopefully Always Pursue and never Rally. You probably know that in 4th Edition Warhammer Core Rulebook, Ragnar's troop Always Pursue and even in the Shadow of the Horned Rat manual, Special Rules it mentions that the game also has Ragnar set to Always Pursue, until the last enemy has been destroyed, so the Halt button can not be used to stop them chasing until the end.

So here is an intial test army of Merc Cavalry (half with Unknown Ticked) against Goblins.



Interestingly one of the Merc Cav fled as yes it was one of the units that had the first unknown ticked-



However, it could simply be effect of an unlucky throw of the Virtual Dice, so all tests have to repeated many times.

I also changed half the Goblin army to have this Unknown ticked and they engaged the Original Merc Cav (without the unknown Ticked) as another preliminary test.



As can be seen 2 of the 3 Goblins (with the Unknown Ticked against normal Merc Cav) actually won their Battle -Again further testing is required to eliminate random roles of the Dice etc.. but this is just the start of testing Unknowns. Also i noticed that the retreating Merc Cav all had 6/12 or 7/12 units left.



Futher tests would be much apreciated -

and there is a high chance of SOTHR attributes appearing in Dark Omen as the early Beta engine of Dark Omen used Shadow of The Horned Rat



Above is the earliest stage of the Dark Omen engine, using SOTHR but with an early Dark Omen GUI

http://forum.dark-omen.org/tavern/original-dark-omen-game-beta-pictures-t278.0.html

Smiley



« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 12:33:53 AM by olly » Logged

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alavet
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« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2009, 06:16:24 AM »

i might perfom few test if some1 will upload right files (with already modified armies & psycho effects like this), otherwise i'm too lazy Smiley

by the way olly, for test maybe its better to use your 18/18 mod?
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sipax
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« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2009, 04:41:35 PM »

Try to test same reqiments. Maybe they (Unknown Psyh.) have any battle propose?
I will try them too (Unknown Psyh.) but dont sure what i will have any progress.
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« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2009, 05:08:24 PM »

Results:

Battle #1. Grudgebringer Cav VS Grudgebringer Cav-2.
Grudgeringers №1 Has All unknown attributes On.
Condition= Cavalry №1 attack Cav №2, so Cav 1 have little bonus.
Result= Cavalry №2 was routed then they has 5 units left (out of 16), Cav №1 Has 13 mens then enemy was routed.

Battle #2. Same troops.
Same attributes.
Condition= Now Cav №2 charge Cav №1.
Result= Cavalry №1 was routed with 7 units left, Cav №2 had only 8 units then their opponent was routing from them.

Conclusion: i think that was just lucky battles for the Cav-1. Do has too random battles to calculate had the Cav-1
any power bonus from that attributes or not.
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alavet
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« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2009, 06:59:47 PM »

tip: try to use in your test as many units as possible (10 vs 10 for example)
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« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2009, 09:23:05 PM »

WarpGhost's Skeleton test is a great example to follow...

http://forum.dark-omen.org/troops/skeleton-unbreakability-test-t300.0.html

Smiley
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« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2009, 11:08:35 PM »

These tests are extremely interesting. This is one of the two last remaining unknown aspects of the Dark Omen format (the second being the scripting format).
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olly
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« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2009, 09:12:11 PM »

Working on the basis that Always Pursue may only apply to Ragnar's, I have implemented our All Single Player to Mulitplayer Mod and my intial tests suggest that the 3rd Unknown, may well be Always Pursue.



Ragnar appears to persue the Enemy all the way to the Edge of the map, as if Always Pursuing, when having the 3rd Unknown applied. When they don't have it applied they chase a short distance and then stop, however with it ticked they will pursue the enemy the whole way, especially when the enemy have their Flee White Flag showing.



I have also tested this with Merc Swordsmen who will also Always Pursue an enemy the whole map, when the Enemy has Fled (indicated by their white Flee Flag). Again the original Swordsmen will only Pursue a short distance without this Unknown being Ticked.



and all the way to the top of the map still Pursuing..




Early, intial days of testing and I will continue to test this theory of the 3rd unknown being Always Persue (when the enemy has decided to Flee). However if the enemy stops then they Pursuit also Stops. (I haven't tested Never Rally yet that would prevent this).

Any assitance testing this initial theory will be greatly appreciated, as it may well be the Roll of The Virtual Dice.

Smiley




******UPDATE*********

Im pretty confident now that the 3rd Unknown is indeed Always Pursue when enemy is Fleeing (White Flag) and my tests now have the enemy set to Flee if Charged to always make their White Flag raise when they break from hand to hand, this allows me to test the other side who have the 3rd Unknown Always Pursue.



So in this other tried and tested method, I am pursuing the enemy with 1-3 units with the Always Persue ticked and units 4-5 unticked. As the Pictures show, the 1-3 units of Ragnar's have the Tick and Persue the Fleeing Enemy all the way to the edge of the Map, where as units 4-5 of Ragnars don't have the Tick and so stop early, when Pursuing the Fleeing Enemy.


Always Persue to edge of Map (Units 1-3 have 3rd Unknown Ticked)


Without Tick Units 4-5 have stopped Persuing



So it shows that Always Persue, only comes into effect when the Enemy has raised its White Fleeing Flag and the Persuers must have the 3rd Unknown Psychology Attribute Ticked to Always Persue.  


Smiley

(Now to further Test again and again and also find which Unknown could be Never Rally, althoug it may well be the same as Flee when charged as they dont Flee when charged, only after manually breaking them off from hand to hand melee. Then their White Flee Flag appaers immediatley, making them Never Rally - but that will be a separte set of tests)
« Last Edit: September 06, 2009, 12:03:14 AM by olly » Logged

and back in Nuln, the ageing Graf Berhardt smiled his secret smile of pride whenever he heard the latest tales of his eldest son's ever growing chain of glorious victories -(sothr manual)
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« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2009, 11:39:05 PM »

Olly question: the troops that have ticked this 3rd attribute, that pursue the enemies "until the end"; attack enemies automatically? i mean when they pass near a unit that they see and are at "charge distance", they do that without your order? i suppose that if this happen you already notice, but i must ask because i always though, when i started to make this kind of investigation at the beggining of the year, that the "Frenzy" state of psicology was one of the "lost attributes".

In this frenzy state, on the TT game, the unit must ALWAYS charge a unit that they see and that is at charge distance. If they are more than one unit to charge, then the player can choose wich one, but in the DO version is difficult to apply, and maybe this is one of the reason for no use this "attribute". Maybe also due to the fact that this state is usually present in Chaos units (even they are some exceptions like the Wild Orcs  Shocked )

But the "frenzy" not end there  Cool : the units have +1 attack on the first strike  Shocked , and if they make they enemy run "they must ALWAYS, always and i mean always, pursue and overrun"  Shocked Shocked. On the 7° edition they don't "continue" the pursue until the total destruction or the end of the table, but in the 4° edition maybe yes, can you check this?  Wink


Well y para vos Rama, that was trying to make some tests, here are as reference the first ones that where made by me, with several hours that where only reconaigsed by the usual gentlemen (Bembe, Ghabry, Mika and Flak, strange that not for Olly) but for nobody else  :'( , not only that, Warpghost on his "Skeleton" post minimise my tests  Sad and talk of the "Standard test" that i imagine and use on the videos  Wink (the one that confront 10 same vs 10 same) almost like a revelation of him!  Angry

http://forum.dark-omen.org/troops/just-testing-1-wraiths-t229.0.html

Well, enough crying, i'm happy that this tests have restarted  Smiley , some cool things are gonna happen, sad that i don't have time for contribute, so good luck to the "testers"!
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olly
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« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2009, 11:46:29 PM »

DjLeBomb - There is a Fanatics Flag in Wh32edit that must be Frenzy



As for me not linking others to your Wraith Test but instead recommending WarpGhost's Test, it was because your Test does not alter or Test for Pyschology Attributes (unlike WarpGhost's Racial Flag changes) so WarpGhost's test is more similar to this one as we are changing Values in WH32Edit. Also it was no revelation that Wraiths were not as Great as many fans thought, since being a Veteran I knew the Difference between Imune To Fear and Unbreakable, having played many battles over the last 10 years, where I witnessed Wraiths being destroyed when I charged them from behind- hence why I wished to see them with low Points as they not the Super Unit many others considered them to be. However, I often refer new members to your test (like Alavet's first online match where I broke all his wraith and could explain the difference by showing him your Vids).

Smiley
« Last Edit: September 06, 2009, 02:07:48 PM by olly » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2009, 12:41:09 AM »

Raising the issue of Never Rally, I now think is the Known Attribute of Flee when Charged.

Since this is only ever used by the Necromancer Unit in the 4th Mission, (Altdorf2 Save) or Road to Bogenhafen Map where he can not be destroyed and Teleports away and Retreats off the Map. However when I apply this to my Test Cavalry Units they don't Flee when Charged but do get their White Flee Flag immediatley after I Break them from Hand to Hand melee which is the same as Never Rally.

I really wanted Never Rally to be different and perhaps be an Unknown, rather than a potenially better description of the Known Flee when Charged attribute. There was another old test we did on that Necromancer in Mission 4 Road to Bogenhafen, where we modded him to appear in the middle of our troops at the start of the mission, so we could maximise his damage and try to kill him before he Fled but sadly we couldn't but it did indicate a Trigger based on his Health Status that makes him Teleport away when half dead and then walk off the Map, with a White Flee Flag, that can be interpreted as Never Rally, as we don't want him to Stop Fleeing.

(Early days and Thoughts as this separate Test)

Based on all previous Knowledge gained from all previous Tests and Resources, such as Mikademus'

http://dev.dark-omen.org/regimentdata.html

Bitmapping 7 of B104nme.arm in Light Blue Colour Code


Smiley



******UPDATE*****

After discussing this  Topic further with Bembelimen, he suggested that I try and kill the Necromancer on the 4th mission, using the Single Player Cheats and although we used the same principle in our old tests by controlling the enemy and making the Vampire appear in our troops at the start we hadn't managed to use the other Cheat of Killing a selected Enemy. Howver, after much practice and Timing I managed to Kill the Necromancer before he Fled!



Sadly his Death Portrait didn't appear and he said his Normal "we will meet again" but I've saved the Mission to see if I will Meet him again, despite killing Him! Which I'm sure he will...I'd call him a Cheat if I wasn't also Cheating!

Every time I tried to Kill him he would Teleport but I kept trying and he kept reappering in his Teleport until eventually he died!


Smiley

« Last Edit: September 06, 2009, 01:43:33 AM by olly » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2009, 10:09:14 AM »

The 2 psychos of the Necromancer are already known.
They are "Indestructable" and "Impervous to magic" or was there a third one I missed?

And imo the teleporting around is a script-function.

But the B1_04 map is still odd. They created 2 banners, 2 psycho attributes and a teleport script-function for it...
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« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2009, 11:19:54 AM »


******UPDATE*****

After discussing this  Topic further with Bembelimen, he suggested that I try and kill the Necromancer on the 4th mission, using the Single Player Cheats and although we used the same principle in our old tests by controlling the enemy and making the Vampire appear in our troops at the start we hadn't managed to use the other Cheat of Killing a selected Enemy. Howver, after much practice and Timing I managed to Kill the Necromancer before he Fled!




Hah, so i was right, he's killable Cheesy
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olly
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« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2009, 12:10:05 PM »

The B1_04 map Necromancer's 3rd one -> Flee if Charged, that I now would describe more accurately as Never Rally




"...but it did indicate a Trigger based on his Health Status that makes him Teleport away when half dead and then walk off the Map, with a White Flee Flag, that can be interpreted as Never Rally, as we don't want him to Stop Fleeing."

Smiley
« Last Edit: September 06, 2009, 02:39:51 PM by olly » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2009, 03:15:30 PM »

Today's Tests have now confirmed that Always Persue is the 3rd Unknown and Flee if Charged is actually Never Rally





All Ragnar's are set to Never Rally/Flee when Charged and Goblin Units 1-3 are set to Always Persue but 4-5 Goblin are not.

So this Picture shows how all Rangnar's immediately Flee with White Flag as soon as I break them from Hand to Hand


Goblin Units 4-5 do not Persue them to the edge of the map as they don't have the 3rd unknown ticked



However, Goblin Units 1-3 have got 3rd Unknown Ticked so Always Persue thier Enenmy until they reach the Edge of the Map


Read more about it on our Wiki
http://wiki.dark-omen.org/do/ARM/Regiment_attributes

So we can make Ragnar's Always Persue like they do in SOTHR and 4th edition Rules and we have renamed Flee if Charged to Never Rally.

"Ragnar's Wolves are renowned for running down their enemy to the last man. Consequently
they will never halt their pursuit of a routing enemy until they have been driven from the
battlefield."  - Shadow of the Horned Rat manual- Special Rules.

Smiley

« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 01:46:41 AM by olly » Logged

and back in Nuln, the ageing Graf Berhardt smiled his secret smile of pride whenever he heard the latest tales of his eldest son's ever growing chain of glorious victories -(sothr manual)
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