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Flak
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Jake Nielsen


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« on: March 02, 2009, 09:57:59 PM »

Date: 28th March 5pm gmt +0

Playerlist:

  • Daviwolfy
  • huks
  • Ghabry
  • bembelimen
  • olly
  • Libertar
  • Chinnico
  • baggiesman1987
  • Kuja
  • alavet
  • Mr Shadow
  • DJLeBomb



In Stage 1 and 2 the players play eachother in the groups once.
If players are of equal points in the the groups then extra games are required.
In Stage 3 the games are best of 3.
Bembelimen will be in charge of the random map, he will roll a 1D6 and that will decide the maps used in all games.



Preliminary Round




|
Group 1
|
Group 2
|
Group 3
|



|
Mr Shadow
|
Libertar
|
olly
|



|
Chinnico
|
alavet
|
Kuja
|



|
Daviwolfy
|
bembelimen
|
baggiesman1987
|



|
Ghabry
|
huks
|
DJLeBomb
|




Mr Shadow - Daviwolfy | alavet - huks | olly - baggiesman1987

Mr Shadow - Ghabry | alavet - bembelimen | olly - JDLeBomb

Chinnico - Daviwolfy | huks - bembelimen | kuja - olly

Chinnico - Ghabry | kuja - baggiesman1987 | Kuja - DjLeBomb

baggiesman1987 - DjLeBomb


The Top 2 of each group qualifies for the Finalgroups, bottom 2 goes into the Placement Group.



Placement Group


| 3rd Group 1 |

| 3rd Group 2 |

| 3rd Group 3 |

| 4th Group 1 |

| 4th Group 2 |

| 4th Group 3 |




Finals



|
Final I
|
Final II
|


|
Mr Shadow
|
Kuja
|


|
alavet
|
Daviwolfy
|


|
olly
|
bembelimen
|



Kuja - Daviwolfy | olly - Mr Shadow | bembelimen - Kuja | alavet - olly | alavet - Mr Shadow




|
5th Place
|
3rd Place
|
Final
|



|
Mr_Shadow - Daviwolfy
|
Kuja - olly
|
alavet - bembelimen
|




6th: Daviwolfy
5th: Mr_Shadow
4th: olly
3rd: Kuja
2nd: bembelimen

So we have a deserved WINNER: congratulation ALAVET



Ruleset: 5k/15 ruleset (id 2173) with this Point List (id 2174) (thank you Flak&exe for creating them)
With original files

  • Every player creates 3 armies with different races (1 empire, 1 greenskin, 1 undead)
  • You have to use these 3 armies and you're not allowed to create more or use others.
  • You can use every army 3 times in the whole Tournament
  • If you have at least one mage/vamp/shaman/necro left, you have to go in close combat and from this moment you're not allowed to use any teleport spells
  • You're not allowed to have more than 3 equal regiments (for example 4 Ghouls are NOT allowed)



Original Files: Download
Map Patch: Download



Allowed Maps:

  • 1 Road to Bogenhafen
  • 2 Empire
  • 3 Black Pyramids (all)
  • 4 The Road to Moussilon
  • 5 Border Bounties
  • 6 Return to Axebite Pass

Be sure, that you have installed the map patch and that your armys fit the ruleset!
« Last Edit: March 29, 2009, 02:08:11 PM by bembelimen » Logged

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"Just because a mage wears the Black Robes, does not make him evil." -- Raislin Magere

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Daviwolfy
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Why to buy one when you can buy two for double?


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« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2009, 05:58:37 PM »

Hi all Friends.
Sorry for no conecction on foro this week, but i'm out of my home for job.

But i will be at home the days of the tournament, then Flak.....Count with my axe!!! Wink


Oh, about Horn of Urgok... i vote for forbid it....it make to DO becames in a no strategic game.
And when the last unit is a Wizard....well.....the same problem is when the last unit is a cavalry with the Banner of Wrath.
Well, really it is an interesting problem....maybe to ways to resolv each:

About the banner:
- Forbid the Banner of Wrath (no need battles where all armies uses the same item ever)
- Increase to 4 the cost of it (i think 4 is a really expensive cost for it and one player only will get it if he/she has any strategic idea with his/her army)

About the Wizards:
- Forbid to the wizards to use magic when he/she Smiley is the last unit in the battle.
- Player only can win a battle if he/she have at least one infantery or cavalry unit (Spiders, Ogres, Trolls, Treeman... too) on ground in the final of the battle.
I explain: If in any moment in a battle player1 has only a wizard in the ground and the enemy has any (not routed) infantery or calvary unit, then player1 lost the game inmediatly. (A Wizard is not a Powerfull and Strong man......the only way to him/her is run and find a superior possition on ground to die like a hero Cheesy) (except if the wizard is a goblin...then only way is run as a hero Tongue)
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huks
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« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2009, 11:04:36 PM »

Oh, about Horn of Urgok... i vote for forbid it....

After the last tournament people were talking about this. Some say Horn is needed, because you need something to counter undead's ability to cause fear. But those people are forgetting one thing...did any undead army win any games last tournament ? Undead was the least used army. Because its VERY hard to build a good army with undead. Their strong melee costs too much(black grail,mummies)and they have no cheap meatwall units(zombies are the worst unit in game and ghouls get routed very easily but they still cost the same amount as orc arrer boyz or imperial swordsmen).

So removing Horn would actually balance this alot and make undead armies much more viable. Otherwise undead armies need their point costs checked, like mayby zombies could cost only 0.5points. In other words I agree with you, a good choice would be banning Horn from tournaments. Increasing the cost will mean nothing, since everyone would still buy it: unless you have it but your enemy does, your chances of winning are very small. And if you increase the cost too much, no one will buy it, so you might just as well ban it.

Also there was talk about randomizing map selection. This is the most needed thing imo. There is no point buying artillery, if you know you are gonna play some plain map where you get rushed by orc army within the first 5seconds.

And what I said about undead units needing their points checked, there are some other units too. Trolls cost 2 points, but still they die against any regiment in 1v1 combat(okay not against artillery groups). Orc arrers are as good as orc boyz in melee, but they still cost the same amount.

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Ghabry
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« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2009, 06:58:04 PM »

Oh, about Horn of Urgok... i vote for forbid it....it make to DO becames in a no strategic game.
The horn is only a problem because you don't have enough money in 5000 to buy items against it. In 3000 the Horn was not as annoying as in 5k because you nearly had no money and had to think before buying it (and in 5k you don't have to). And yes I also lost one battle thx to the Horn and only my Undeads had Horn (but without Horn I would have lost against Kuja who had Horn too imo).

the same problem is when the last unit is a cavalry with the Banner of Wrath.
Yes, Cavallry with BoW is a problem but the only cavalry is Pistols imo because the rest is too expensive.

About the banner:
- Forbid the Banner of Wrath (no need battles where all armies uses the same item ever)
- Increase to 4 the cost of it
I only used the Stormsword always because the BoW is already to expensive for me and I was often able to get the Banner from the enemy for free during the combat Wink. And I hate it too when a stupid BoW kills my mage e.g.

About the Wizards:
- Forbid to the wizards to use magic when he/she Smiley is the last unit in the battle.
I don't agree with this idea because it's a extreme disadvantage for a mage if he is not allowed to use Magic (guess why it is a mage...).
I play the following rule with some players: If the mage is the last regiment it has to go to Close Combat. And if you still lose against the mage: Your Fail, use a regiment with protection against magic (good against horn too, but to expensive in 3k or 5k)

---------------------------------------

After the last tournament people were talking about this. Some say Horn is needed, because you need something to counter undead's ability to cause fear. But those people are forgetting one thing...did any undead army win any games last tournament ? Undead was the least used army.
Kuja won one game (with a teleporting vampire *cough* *cough*) and I won two games with undead against Kuja (no, I had no and didn't ran away because I had at the end also other units then vampire).

So removing Horn would actually balance this alot and make undead armies much more viable.
Except Zombies, Ghouls and Wights (I don't mean the normal-weapon resistent guys) all undead units should be able to resist the Horn.

In other words I agree with you, a good choice would be banning Horn from tournaments. Increasing the cost will mean nothing, since everyone would still buy it: unless you have it but your enemy does, your chances of winning are very small. And if you increase the cost too much, no one will buy it, so you might just as well ban it.
btw, also nobody is using Wraiths because they cost 8 points (!) for a unit which can easily defeated with a charge from behind or Magic (Items). A solution for the horn would be: Fallback to 3k or increase it to 9k.

Also there was talk about randomizing map selection. This is the most needed thing imo. There is no point buying artillery, if you know you are gonna play some plain map where you get rushed by orc army within the first 5seconds.
I Agree

And what I said about undead units needing their points checked, there are some other units too. Trolls cost 2 points, but still they die against any regiment in 1v1 combat(okay not against artillery groups). Orc arrers are as good as orc boyz in melee, but they still cost the same amount.
Trolls are immune to magic (ok, sometimes Tongue) maybe this was the reason for 2 points. About the rest: Dunno.


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bembelimen
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« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2009, 09:31:50 PM »

Should bembelimen is unable to organize then we may have to look at another date.


I'm available.

I could understand on the chatter in the chatroom at our last tournament that a few extra rules might be need to balance the 5000/15 rules


The main problem is, that the 5k/15 rules are taken from the 3k/10 rules. So for example the horn: 4 points in 3k/10 hurts a lot, but in 5k/15 it's ok (for the result), so we would need an adjustment of the points.

Do we need a random map system? An idea is that for single battle games, a random map is used and for best of 3 to choose one each and the last random if needed.


It's a nice idea, we should thought about a randomizer.

Also the question if 5000/15 will be the rule set again?


I improved the 3k/10 rules, so the units become more expensive if you choose a 2nd/3rd. I personaly don't like 5k games, so I would suggest to go back to the (new) 3k/10 or try 9k gold games with the DOST rules. (We have a newer version of it, but we have to add them first)

Oh, about Horn of Urgok... i vote for forbid it....it make to DO becames in a no strategic game.
And when the last unit is a Wizard....well.....the same problem is when the last unit is a cavalry with the Banner of Wrath.


I don't like the idea of forbitting items/units either we play Dark Omen with different units or we play "Draughts" where every stone is eqal. Our goal have to be: make the good stuff (horn, grail, etc.) playable but it should hurt too, if you use it (e.g. you have to spend more points).

Eh and as conclusion: I'm in Wink
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« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2009, 12:34:50 AM »

Yeah, as much as we would all love to, we can't Ban any Items.

                            Smiley



So I agree the Solution is Increase the Points Value for Horn and Banner of Warth etc. 


I also Agree, that when a Mage is the Last unit on the Battlefield, it should Engage in Melee'.



Please Count Me in, for This Month's Tournament.






                         Smiley




« Last Edit: March 11, 2009, 11:20:54 PM by olly » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2009, 12:36:22 PM »

a very interesting rule change bembelimen, i agree that 3k was better and already balanced. I think that if you applied a simular rule change to 5k then maybe we could get it to work because i think it has potential.

As for the horn in 5k i think it would have to keep the balance of it being expensive in points, so 8 might create a more balance use of it.

The hard way to make a map randomizer is to put it into the homepage, with a random choice at each click. The mechanics of such an item i dont know but i have seen it on RPG sites in the past
The easy faster way, is to note the maps on a notepad with numbers for each and a new number for each round of the tournament, players can choose a number and get a random map like so

Crissburg Town  1 4 5 2
Black Pyramid    2 6 7 1

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"There is only one way out of hell, thats through it" -- General Patton

"Just because a mage wears the Black Robes, does not make him evil." -- Raislin Magere

"Evil Turns upon it self" -- Paladine
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« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2009, 04:30:23 PM »

I'm in and the time suits me.
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Kuja
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« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2009, 09:01:17 PM »

I agree, we should add engaging in melee with the wizard when the wizard is the last unit. I kind of felt bad winning against Ghabry last tournament in that way.

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bembelimen
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« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2009, 10:33:19 PM »

I think that if you applied a simular rule change to 5k then maybe we could get it to work

Let's see how Mika will change it (it was his idea for the 5k/15 rules, so I don't wanna change it without his allowance)
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« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2009, 10:21:41 PM »

I am in for the fight.
I don't have enough experience to contribute to the discussion about the rules (maybe when I reach the next level  Wink), but I am in for the fight at any cost.
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« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2009, 04:05:07 PM »

thats the spirit maybe you can claim Olly's spirit award hehe only joking ofcouse
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"There is only one way out of hell, thats through it" -- General Patton

"Just because a mage wears the Black Robes, does not make him evil." -- Raislin Magere

"Evil Turns upon it self" -- Paladine
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« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2009, 04:44:48 PM »

So it seems, the 5k/15 will not be ready for the tournament, Kyppers Patch dito, so what about a DOST tournament? (If yes, should we/I add the lastes version of DOST?)
« Last Edit: March 16, 2009, 01:46:23 AM by bembelimen » Logged



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« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2009, 12:01:12 AM »

yo I would like to take part in this months tournament please.

last month was really bad for me i didnt even have time for a single game and with the new rules being used I thought best stay out of it for that one.

cu around soon



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Kuja
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« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2009, 12:47:44 AM »

I guess i will join this months tournament as well =)
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