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Mr Shadow
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« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2010, 12:26:20 AM »

Very nice models!
Wish I could get my arse in gear and finish the Dark Elven army I've been tinkering with  Tongue

I wonder Mikademus, as I am not familiar myself to any great effect with the 3rd and 4th editions, what
was better in those days?
As I'm more accustomed to the 6th I have precious little to compare with, but I was pleased to see that
GW's intention was to move away from the "Hero Hammer", as I understand was what those editions
were plagued with (or blessed with, as per the viewers own point of view) and to streamline the rules.
While some may say that this is a mistake, I for one am of the opinion that that is the only way to create
rules for a game that will, in the long run, be enjoyable for all parties.
I digress, if any are willing to listen I can continue this train of though on a more fruitions occasion.  Grin

That GW have failed in their intentions is another story, but I would like to know what, if you have an example
ready, was better in the good ol' days?
And a comment on the greedy corporation that GW has become; well, perhaps a necessary evil? But a very sad one
if true.
But are the move towards plastics a work of usurers?
It furthers the hobby no end, and you get very much for your money!
I certainly hope that they think of their fans from time to time... Wink

/Mr Shadow
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Mikademus
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« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2010, 05:17:55 PM »

What I liked better about 3rd edition was that they were trying to capture "reality" of melee. So the edition has rules about special formations, and push-back (the losing side of each round is pushed back), about pivoting push-backs and such stuff. There aren't really any specific emphasis on heroes, only that they are better-attributed individuals. So 3rd edition is the tactically most complicated version.

4th ed was simplified by focusing on the core combat rules, which were called the "basic rules" (as opposed to "advanced rules") in 3rd ed. They streamlined the game to speed it up and make it easier to get into, but at the expense of tactical subtlety. Iirc they also started the commercialisation by making magic into cards, which would be released as expansion packs you should buy.

5th ed needed a new direction, so they tried to make the game more "epic" by making the character models (now called "heroes") more powerful, which led to the infamous "hero hammer" situation.

So, since I like tactical considerations I liked 3rd ed the most. With 5th the game turned more and more into catering to kids. Also, I'd say that 3rd and 4th eds are the time when GW's imagination was at its peak: the bizarre gobling Doom Divers, Dwarven Gobbo Catapults, the Chaos Dwarved (inspired by Russian and Mesopotamian aesthetics!), and all the Chaos Minions were invented in this time. The increasing commercialisation of the franchise undermined this aspect and made it less interesting.

So there are some reasons on the top of my head I can think about what I liked better about the earlier versions.
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Mr Shadow
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« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2010, 08:19:47 PM »

Thats more than enough, I should say!  Grin
Rumour has it that some of those things will return in the next version
of warhammer, atleast envelopment -maybe GW is trying to return to former systems? who knows!

I hear what your saying, and it's something that I would like to see as well. A system that emulates the reality of combat
to a greater extent. It could be done in a computer game, but so far only Shogun: Total War has come close (IMHO)
A tabletop game has the best possibilties, but I think Warhammer has one great flaw; the scale of the combat is
somewhere between a skirmish and a full-blown battle.
While there is nothing wrong with that, I just think that it limits what one can do with the system.

Let's see what the future brings... Wink
/Mr Shadow
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Mikademus
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« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2010, 08:47:08 PM »

Haha, yeah, in the Warhammer universe a great army has a few hundred individual soldiers! Cheesy The ancient Egyptians fielded armies of 50,000 soldiers, the 400-BCE Chinese fielded upward of a million soldiers, and the Hundred Year Wars and the Napoleonic wars saw battles of hundreds of thousands--if not approaching a million--soldiers. So yeah, the Warhammer scale, from this perspective, is somewhat pathetic! Tongue

I think GW made a board game trying to do something about this, "Mighty Empires" or something. They also made a space battle game where the sides were supposed to represent armadas. I haven't played either, though, so I can't say how enjoyable they are.
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Grend
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« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2010, 10:46:53 AM »

I`m considering whether or not to start playing again, but 7ed is just 5ed all over again..
Now it is all about stupid characters on steroids instead of focusing on tactics and strategy!
AAaaargh!
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Nitrox
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« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2010, 01:11:10 PM »

Imo it's no hero on steroids in 7th edition Tongue
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Grend
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« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2010, 01:26:23 PM »

Dark Elf lord with 2+ ward save against s5 and up, with 1+armour save on a dragon ring any bells?
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Nitrox
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« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2010, 01:57:43 PM »

Grend...What the *****? I'm playing DE and there is nothing like +2 Ward save.

You only get item like :

Ward save based on str of hit, roll a D6 for each wound on a roll less than or equal to the attack's strenght it is ignored, 6 always fail


So it's mean, when enemy got STR 2 you got save ONLY on +2 and +1, +3 +4 +5 +6 always fail on STR 2.

Next :
Str 5, on this you only fail on S6.

When enemy got STR 6 it's doesnt matter, 6 always fail.
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warhammerfreak
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« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2010, 06:05:30 PM »

I agree with the fact that 7th ed is fucked up, not necessarily in terms of Herohammer (although I think the heros are the biggest problem) but also the fact that some armys are ridiculous stronger then other armys. I play VC and I think they are stronger then all army except dark elves and daemons, I mean some things are really ridiculous.
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Nitrox
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« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2010, 06:18:43 PM »

Daemons, DE and VC first top 3... xD
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Mr Shadow
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« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2010, 09:50:20 PM »

The famous power-creep! All hail the power-creep! Grin
As I said before, I think that GW has moved in the (not perhaps wrong, but unnessessarily complicated) direction.

Why did they give "Hero" models so much power, why not just let them be upgraded champions, that can't leave the parent unit or something. And limit the amount of characters that a single unit can hold? Thus eliminating the all-star tactic!
The humanity, the humanity.... Wink

Mikademus, have you tried the game Warmaster? (also Games Workshop)
They tried to do something new with that, sadly it's not as popular as it deserves.
The rules are all, or were, free to download in PDF on the GW homesite -specialist games.

Just for the record, the Dark Elves did really merit a really good army book after the former botched atempt.
There is just a few combinations that's over the top.

Over and out!
/Mr Shadow
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« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2010, 11:11:30 PM »

Never played Warmaster, I held the box back in the days but I was a poor student without anyone to play it with and never bought it.

Speaking of 7th, apparently even GW has admitted that the Daemon lists are broken as broken can be. They are circulating rumours now about an upcoming Warhammer, so look forward to purchasing the 8th ed and 14 fluffy army books for it! (Actually, there is no way to link them as the originators or the rumours, but by some strange coincidence, every time they're about to release a new version rumour bonanza strikes. Go figure.)
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