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Author Topic: few questions regarding mechanics DO  (Read 18832 times)
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alavet
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« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2009, 12:16:43 PM »

another question: why some untis have BO skills even they dont have any distance weapon? for example flagellants

another example is from SOTH olly post where he said that level2 units (in single player probably) have +1 to BO skill - its useless for meele regiment isnt it?
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« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2009, 12:19:44 PM »

thats true alavet, but some mainly undead and monsters have BS 0

with making the 2 campaigns ive seen and memorized most of the unit stats, my first thought was that they used the BS if they had a magical item that required it, such as storm sword and banner of wrath but i dont know
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alavet
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« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2009, 09:11:10 AM »

how calculates battles? for example my 5 rgiments attacked 1 regiment of mummies (x1 unit)
at animation i may see that for example x1 cavalry and x2 crossbowmen attacks mummy. does it means that i will have 2 atatcks for this round with 2 crossbowmen and 1 attack with cavalry unit? and for exampel there is flagellants stay far over from mummies but still at "battle" status.

so game excactly calculates battle with animation or not?

if so, there is really no point to use more than 3 rregiments for any 1 enemy unit.
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« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2009, 12:57:31 PM »

Mhh good question. How is this solved in the "real" tabletop game? Perhaps could anyone who  played it, say something.
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WarpGhost
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« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2009, 03:02:33 PM »

On TT, you can only attack if you're in base contact with an enemy model. Because thats played with neat blocks whereas DO is less organised, that means you can have less clean combats in DO. Either way, only troops animated in combat will be fighting. However, you have something called Combat Resolution (CR), which determines who wins combat and forces Break tests on the loser (this is why units break from melee). CR comes from wounds, but also from ranks (and possibly outnumbering in DO though it didnt exist in 4th edition on which it is based), banners (which DO probably doesnt count), and also from hitting people in the flanks and rear (which also causes a Panic check right at the start of the round).

So your extra regiments might not be contributing attacks but they will be contributing some CR to the fight.

Which reminds me, whilst Skeleton units appear Unbreakable like they all have a Defiance Banner, in TT they actually take additional wounds from CR instead of taking Break tests, which probably explains why they seem to be cut down a lot faster than Flaggalents or a unit with Defiance Banner (made worse by their goblin-level stats). Id forgotten about this and its probably needs checking out, but if so its another reason for looking at Skeleton troop costs, because they arent comparable to the Defiance Banner.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2009, 03:08:10 PM by WarpGhost » Logged

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Mikademus
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« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2009, 04:38:49 PM »

Which reminds me, whilst Skeleton units appear Unbreakable like they all have a Defiance Banner, in TT they actually take additional wounds from CR instead of taking Break tests, which probably explains why they seem to be cut down a lot faster than Flaggalents or a unit with Defiance Banner (made worse by their goblin-level stats). Id forgotten about this and its probably needs checking out, but if so its another reason for looking at Skeleton troop costs, because they arent comparable to the Defiance Banner.

Can't find that in the 3rd or 4th ed. core rules, but I don't have the undead army lists for those editions. Interesting rule though!
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« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2009, 04:54:43 PM »

While I havn't been around for as long as since the days of 3rd or 4th WH edition (or the Dark Ages, for that matter Wink )

From what I know, that rule has been around for a very long time, but never in the core rules but instead in the army-book.
However, I never really thought about that they have implemented it in Dark Omen! I guess that that is what the flag, "racial flag specific to Skeletons"
Damn, thats good news -I have to make quite a few changes to my Campaign Remake!  Grin

/Mr Shadow
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« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2009, 06:07:31 PM »

I have now proved with the help of OllyOrc that Skeletons are indeed subject to this altered version of Unbreakable. See here for the results.

Quote
Can't find that in the 3rd or 4th ed. core rules, but I don't have the undead army lists for those editions. Interesting rule though!
There was no Unbreakable rule in the core rules back then anyway; it was a army-specific thing back then. And yes it was in the UD book, and it has been a part of all Undead rules since at least 4th edition.

---------------

An unrelated point I brought up in the skellie test, but its worth mentioning here because it deals with how Weapon Skill stat actually works:

"Another interesting point: At this stage, people are probably looking at the difference between results for Halberds and Swordsmen and thinking “Swordsmen must suck!”. Well, let me offer something in Swordsmen defence (other than “they cost half the price of a 2nd unit of greatswords/halberds”).  Halberdiers have polarms which makes them effectively Weapon Skill 3/Strength 4, which means they are more likely to wound people, whereas Swordsmen have WS4/S3, which means they are more likely to hit in the first place. However, its not a case of ‘higher the WS, the better’; you simply only have to exceed the current enemy’s WS to get the hit bonus. So a WS6 Black Grail is no better at beating up a WS2 unit than a WS4 one! (all other factors being equal, although if you have less than half your opponents WS they get a penalty to hit, but goblins/skellies against BG and Vamps are about the only instances). Because both Halberds and Swordsmen had higher WS than Skellies, Swordsmen’s advantage didn’t count; their strength comes from fighting WS3 (they hit more) and WS4 (they stop the enemy getting the hit bonus) enemies. This just happened to be one of those times Swordsmen couldn’t play to their strengths."
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« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2009, 01:20:05 AM »

I have now proved with the help of OllyOrc that Skeletons are indeed subject to this altered version of Unbreakable. See here for the results.


That's really good news! Could you connect this to one of the less well understood racial flags (f.i. the "Racial flag specific to Skeletons" Mr Shadow mentioned)?
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« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2009, 05:31:41 PM »

Does not this mean that Skellies should get a lowered points cost, as you have not calculated their value correctly since you had imperfect information at the time?
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« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2009, 11:13:56 PM »

I have now proved with the help of OllyOrc that Skeletons are indeed subject to this altered version of Unbreakable. See here for the results.


That's really good news! Could you connect this to one of the less well understood racial flags (f.i. the "Racial flag specific to Skeletons" Mr Shadow mentioned)?
Im not sure what you're asking. Are you talking about the racial flags other than Skeletons, or about the Skellie one?
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alavet
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« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2009, 06:28:23 AM »

btw, is there any other stats other than WS BS ST TO WO AT IN LS ?
i mean in wh40k there is also some "save roll" for terminators for example; like to hit with usual orcs u need not only to hit with BS & get through TO, but also get throught their liek i dunno "armour"? is it the same or not?

cause for example to hit there terminators u need to roll "1" of the d6 (16%) after get through their To.
or is it the simple armour?

and also, is it possible to use 6 armour slots at DO or only 5 maximum? (i mean what will happened if i take shield with x5 slots?)

P.S.
Quote
Mhh good question. How is this solved in the "real" tabletop game? Perhaps could anyone who  played it, say something.
in table games all units in distance of two inches involved into the battle(and 1 inch is aprox. = wight of one corpse; please note corpses have some roudn stands" which is bigger than usual corpse)
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Kypper
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« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2009, 11:21:12 PM »

btw, is there any other stats other than WS BS ST TO WO AT IN LS ?
i mean in wh40k there is also some "save roll" for terminators for example; like to hit with usual orcs u need not only to hit with BS & get through TO, but also get throught their liek i dunno "armour"? is it the same or not?

cause for example to hit there terminators u need to roll "1" of the d6 (16%) after get through their To.
or is it the simple armour?

and also, is it possible to use 6 armour slots at DO or only 5 maximum? (i mean what will happened if i take shield with x5 slots?)

P.S.
Quote
Mhh good question. How is this solved in the "real" tabletop game? Perhaps could anyone who  played it, say something.
in table games all units in distance of two inches involved into the battle(and 1 inch is aprox. = wight of one corpse; please note corpses have some roudn stands" which is bigger than usual corpse)
The armor works the same, with ONE big thing : strength reduces the armor.

So, imagine you have a nice barbed horse (save 5+ or 2pts), a full plate armor (4+ or 3pts), a magic shield (5+ or 2pts), so you have an armor of 0+ ! It works like a save of 2+ ofc Tongue
But there's the strength. Points above 3 reduce the armor by one.
ST 1 > ok
ST 2 > ok
ST 3 > ok
ST 4 > -1 Sad
ST 5 > -2
Etc.

So, your mighty knight is hit and wound by a skeleton (ST 3), so he has 16% of losing one point of life (even with a 0+).
But if he's on the path of a dragon (ST 6), he loses 3 points of armor, so he only as a 3+ (33% of losing an hp).

is this clear ? Wink


Btw I'm not speaking of ward save and regeneration, because they're none in DO (well the trolls have no special tag right ?)
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alavet
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« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2009, 08:30:39 AM »

so Kypper, may you pelase calculate some chances to hit in battle of Treeman vs Black Grail? with diff. armour slots (default armor is 2) i just interested, cause in that case treeman looks like a hell machince of death
and i guess 6 armour then is working isnt it?





p.s. and what is BS skill form meele units please advice?
p.p.s. am i got right that in wh49k ST doesnt reduces armour?

thanks!
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« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2009, 01:23:53 PM »

Hard to say but I'm trying.
Remember that I'm a v6-v7 Wh player, not a v4 old guy. Grin

So your big tree :
WS8, ST6, A4.

And the knights :
WS6, TO3 (lol), WO2, with 6 points of armor (1+ !)

Let's do it for one attack.
WS8 against WS6, that's 2/3 to hit.
ST6 against TO3, that's 5/6 to wound.
ST6, it's 3 points above 3, so the armor got change in a poor  4+ (a 1/2 protection).
(2/3) x (5/6) x (1/2) = 10 / 36 = 5 / 18 ~= 28%
You have 4 attacks, so you should do an average... 1,1 wounds in one round.
But beware ! The knights have WO2, you need to do 2 wounds to the regiment to kill one guy.
If you read my wall-of-text about the skeletons, you maybe see it's a little more complicated:
The treeman charge and kill one knight. The knights don't have the strength bonus thanks to their lances, and didn't hurt him. It's a 1-1 (they are legion in greater number than the 'lone treeman). They only lose half a knight.
But what if the treeman charge in the rear and, with a little luck, does 2 wounds (one knight) ? He wins the fight by 3-1, so another knight is (really) dead !
1 wound versus 4 wounds... Now do your own maths boy Cheesy

Quote
p.s. and what is BS skill form meele units please advice?
Does nothing. Like the attacks for a canon Tongue

EDIT : forgot one line.
Quote
p.p.s. am i got right that in wh49k ST doesnt reduces armour?
Yep. But it's somewhat different in Wh40k. That's not the subject btw :p
« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 01:32:13 PM by Kypper » Logged

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