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Author Topic: Wraiths 8 or 6 points  (Read 9833 times)
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bembelimen
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« on: February 05, 2009, 09:22:24 PM »

The last few days we had a little debate about the Wraiths.

One side said: "Only magic items can destroy them, Wraiths force the opponent to use them, so they make a non-magic army unplayable and the game will be a lottery" => set Wraiths to 8 points.

The other side said: "Nearly nobody used Wraiths at the last tournament and IF you use one(1!!) magic item you can kill them easily. It's only a tactical aspect, in the game, that you can surprise an opponent who wanna win with a lot of regiments instead of using magic items. They're defeatable." => let them to 6 points.

So we need your opinion.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 02:47:49 AM by olly » Logged



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Kypper
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« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2009, 10:53:51 PM »

I don't like the idea of an "invulnerable" unit.

8 points !
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« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2009, 11:28:57 PM »

They can be routed, not easily but they can, 6 pts seems fair to me
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« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2009, 11:44:47 PM »

We also have the same discussion on the point list talk page on the wiki.

Anyway, for me Wraiths are against the tactical core or Dark Omen. There is no other unit than Wraiths that rely on the player having a particular item or unit and that are indefeatable if this is missing or lost. Thus, by either braking the core game mechanics, or forcing players to spend gold and points on just-in-case items, they detract from the game, I do not consider wraiths to be a "tactical option", I consider using them to try to exploit the game, especially if what Ghabry says is true, that the only reason to include them is in the chance that the opponent hasn't a counter which if true would mean an auto-win.
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« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2009, 12:52:45 AM »

In my opinion 6 points are enough for wraiths.
They force all players to buy a magic sword. Without wraiths nobody would use magic swords.

If you don't have any magic they are instant win, right. But if you have magic and charge from behind you have a very high chance to rout them (and they have the "destroyed if routed"-flag).
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« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2009, 01:04:15 AM »

Why is it a good thing to force everyone to buy a magic sword?
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bembelimen
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« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2009, 01:35:43 AM »

I think 6 points are enough too.

  • As Ghabry said, without Wraiths the magic items become useless, nobody will ever use them, because a non-magic army is much stonger than a army with a magic sword.
  • By the time nobody used Wraiths in the tournament, and the non-magic armys grown a lot (I think only olly had some magic items?). But why? Because you have the best chance to win with them. I bet most users didn't create an army from their favorite regiments, they created an army which have a good chance for winning. So now we found an error in your calculations and you have to react to this new situation in the tournament.
  • And I think, I will not use Wraiths in the next tournament, I have a better idea for winning  Grin, so if I will win the next tournament with this (undefeatable) idea, should we block them too? I think it would be better, if the other players make also new strategies and should try to find the error in the opponents calculation.
  • In fact: Armys from the old tournament are known (In the December-Tournament most user surrender magic items => I used Wraiths), so you need new ideas and have to change your army...
  • Wraiths really (really) sucks agains magic items
  • They're definitly defeatable
  • I don't think, that you will be forced to buy one....in the last tournament we had 2 from 28 fights with Wraiths, so you had could win with a non-magic army......The "Wraith-Problem" (if there would be a problem) is very small

So.....6 points are enough
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« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2009, 12:10:15 PM »

I can promise you that Ghabrys choice to buy Banner of Defiance in the for his Biguns in the Final is what won it for him, with being immune to my scorpions caused my army to be defeated by his smaller but stronger force, so magic items can win the battle
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« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2009, 01:21:18 PM »

Magic items are certainly not useless. Shield of Ptolos, Banner of defiance, the lightning banner, heart of woe, all have distinct tactical uses, it is only that in all honesty we're still in the early stages of multiplayer skills yet. With skills we will pull off more and more subtle tactics, which will include magic.

Then again, there is nothing wrong with armies without magic. The game is about tactics, not magic in itself. I have played TT battles without magic.

Also, we all seem to be forgetting that this is all taking place within a 3000/10 setting. That it, the SMALLEST and most restrictive possible army builds. With 5000/15 and even 9000/30 tournaments the situation will change utterly. I have always considered the 3000/10 tournaments to be sort of a beginners' tournament, geared toward allowing even total newbs (which to a certain extent includes myself!) a chance (partly by reducing complexity) while still keeping the core of the game intact, and it works splendidly for that! But for the Wraiths, which destroys the model.

So I say they should be prohibitly expensive (8 points), that 3000/10 works well, and that we eventually should move to 5000/15 point tournaments.
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olly
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« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2009, 02:46:14 AM »

7 points


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« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 02:52:43 AM by olly » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2009, 03:08:33 AM »

The Wraith is the only unit in the game that don't imply a particular tactics of its own, but that restricts and forces the tactical choices of everyone else. Wraiths break the ordinary game model. They're the only unit of this kind, and in DO they do not suffer from the compensatory disadvantages that are specified in the TT. Allowing wraiths (or making them a more affordable option) forces other players into more narrow tactical choises and force a certain play style on the game.

The solution is not to make them cheaper, it is to move to 5000/15 battles.
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« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2009, 07:48:43 AM »

this debate its almost closed but i put my opinion anyway  Tongue.

I think that the "Wraith Hunting" its nonsense. The 7 points that Olly propose its interesting but if we look forward into the 5000, 7000 and 9000 armies, when the 7 could make an important diference, but for now, 6 points are more than enough.

And by the way this is also my argument: http://forum.dark-omen.org/troops/just-testing-1-wraiths-t229.0.html;msg1261;topicseen#msg1261
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« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2009, 09:44:12 AM »

As a newbie to this online community, I must admit that I find the chance of wraiths to be highly annoying, mostly due to me having to pay a point for an otherwise useless sword.

So, a suggestion: Instead of just putting wraiths at 8 points, what about instead making a few of the less used magical swords not cost any points? This makes wraiths easier to counter, and encourages further diversity in the game.

Just an idea...
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alavet
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« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2009, 10:25:01 AM »

we currently conluded to have wraiths at 5 pts
(only for 5/15 + battles)

for 3k battles they probably should worth 6-7-8 (i dont know)

i may advice you how to counter them: just attacked them at the roar
you may see roar by oposite of arrow under their banner
sometiems it doesnt works but very usually they flee and dies. sometiems you need 3 regiments for that if wraiths dont flee after first charge
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Arkturus
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« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2009, 09:01:12 PM »

6 Points are enough.

Wrights have only 5 Members u only need 1Strong Unit...Maybe Cavalery.. so u can kill them without problem...magic swords just cost 1Point.
And with a wizzard its easy too.

If u fight against them u need Equipent too, and not only great Invasion troops.
So you have to use more magic in this game.

With this guys, its more interessting and have to think even better to.
If u dont like magic you should play Commandos ^^ there u can play only with troop-tactics Wink

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