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Author Topic: RULESET : Dark Omen 7th (DO7)  (Read 15063 times)
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Darkmancer
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« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2010, 08:48:27 PM »

Re Cid

Unfortunatly yes the unit still drops the items when it dies, the 2 solutions to this are add a rule stopping people picking up items, or add the no item flag to all/most you units (eg. in dark omen expanded very few units (typically rare leader/hero units) have the ability to hold an item, and then it tends to be only 1.

Modding DO you'll have to pick the best solution available though there tends to be always a compromise.  EG in DO flails just give a constant +2 strenght perminantly, not just for the first round.  So you can either - remove flails for flagellant, leave them with flails even though they arn't correctly implemented, or remove the flails and give them a portion of strength to simulate a temporary boost in strength.  No solution is perfect.

I think troll armour acts as "3 shield" armour thats what it show up as on the unit selection sheet, but there's no definite way to prove this.  Olly might be able to provide the armour lvl of a troll in 4th edition and its reasonable to assume DO matches it.

As a warning I'd be wary of putting fire and dark magic mages in squads as teleport & soul drain tend to crash the game I believe.

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[23:04:33] <*Ghabry> The internal design of Darkmancer is just strange
CidHalsey
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« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2010, 09:35:28 PM »

I've actually had no incidents with porting mages crashing the game since the implimentation of Countess Contressa and her Wright bodyguard for my Countess mod. Ported her here there and everywhere, without crash. Perhaps because she's tagged as an Infantry Unit, rather than as an Evil mage? (And so doesn't animate her spellcasting much.) Although I've never tried Soul Drain, so I don't know if that could have unexpected concequences...

Goodpoint about the restricting of magic items. I completely forgot to bar units without Hero characters for taking magic items in my 7th edition version. Items should be limited to heros... (whoops.)

Is there any way to increase magic item capacity without experience? Otherwise to simulate a perfect statline transistion, I'm going to have to -understat- units like the Elector Counts bodyguard, then raise their experience, (Thus improving their stats back to what they'd be on the tabletop) to give them the option of an additional item.

(Theory is the Elector counts bodyguard includes the army standard bearer and thus should be able to take the option of a magic banner as well as a sword. It's not perfect, but hey! What works...)

I guess you could test the troll thing out by pitting equally statted trolls. (Or even just blocks of infantry with troll armour) against identical units with 3 armour, then 2 armour and so forth to see if a difference became apparent.


Do the flails really work every round? That's a bitch, because +2 strength on the charge simulates lances very well. If theyt work every round they are effectively no different at all than great weapons, (Unless Great weapons correctly modify the int of the user?) That would make balencing proper cav for the lance effect more tricky... As making a cavalry charge that impacts and inflicts sevear damage is quiet hard with DO...
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lordbraprus
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« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2010, 11:36:19 PM »

i think that the weapons thing work in the charge first round, like the +2 strengh to longswords, or +1 to haldbeiders Cheesy then it is normal :S exept the wight blade

but things like basic hand weapon and two anded weapon they should work every round in the fight right??

and..yea yea iam on that please be patient, after some matches with cid hasley i have finally balanced prices, now undead will have a real diferent tactics to use Cheesy prices are just coming
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Darkmancer
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« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2010, 01:51:54 AM »

Teleport
It's in multiplayer where it crashes, it be nice if you can get it to work reliably just test it first.  I suggest you try out Grends mod Dark Omen Expanded, it tries to simulate 9th edition as best as possible, with all (well most) races (ogres, chaos, etc), there's some nice and unusual features in there.  Use the link here:
http://forum.dark-omen.org/dark-omen-expanded/release-v12-out-rebalance-and-community-wishes-t724.0.html
as the one on the front page is outof date Sad

Re Testing armour, it's not that simple, with the dice rolling aspect of DO you'd need hundreds of tests to find slight differences.  You could probobly tell fairly quickly ( a dozen tests or so) wether you get some armour or not, but you'd stuggle to get a definitive answer quickly.


RE weapons
Thats how we thought it worked until I did some tests with Olly.  Weaons do not have any affect on initiative nor does the flail lose is strength after the first round like it's supposed to.

***How we found out - skip if you dont care**  Smiley
I created a series of troops with 1,2,3,4 strenght , and gave olly a series of troops with 6,7,8 toughness with no attacks.  I got him to charge his troops into mine.  We found you need strength 4 to hurt a t7.  Then I started equiping weapons, a s2 with flail could still hurt a t7 hence flail = +2, even after multiple combat rounds the s7 troops carried on dieng, plus s1 troops could not hurt the t7 troops except when pumping the strenght button.  Even leaving several minutes between strenght boosting the t7's would still die, which would not of happened if the flails lost strength after the first round of combat.  DO seemingly can't keep track of number of round of combat.  Weapons could also only affect strength in SOTHR which DO was developed from.
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[23:04:33] <*Ghabry> The internal design of Darkmancer is just strange
CidHalsey
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« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2010, 02:05:15 AM »

It's in Mutliplayer when it crashes eh? Time for some extensive testing... This can't be allowed.

And I do belive I already have Dark Omen expanded lying around, just need to reinstall it when I've finished tinkering with my current files.

Yes, testing armour would be a sure pain in the ass, maybe I'll find someone with as little a life as I to help. Any volenteers? (Ugh, spelling.)

And that sounds like a reasonably well thought out experiment, with some quiet depressing results.If true, that would make the difference between great weapons and fails non existant, (Perhaps an accidental coding error?) Meaning great weaponed troops would best be represented simply by giving them int 1.

Which leaves trying to figure in Lances or Flails a decidedly complex excerise...
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Darkmancer
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« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2010, 02:27:12 AM »

Well you options are:
Leave them as flails
downgrade to polearms (+1stregth)
downgrade them to normal weapons
Equipe potion of strength to similate a one time use.

The only other modifers are ere we go (not very suitable), and probobly the best and most unlikely too work solution, designate them as chariots. Now chariots have an imediate combat round on charging (hence the reason wizards insta die around them), how ever wether you could get DO to work in multiplayer with those rules assigned to calvary???

I seem to rerember Ghabry did get chariots in multiplayer, but I think there were problems.....
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Cry woe, destruction, ruin, and decay:
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[23:04:33] <*Ghabry> The internal design of Darkmancer is just strange
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« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2010, 02:33:46 AM »

Ooooh...

I could try using the chariot attitrbute. However, given the way it redefines the unit, I think it would have horrible side effects.

Here's the bigger question though.

Flail - + 2 strength.
Double handed weapon + 2 strength
Polearm  + 1 strength.
Hand Weapon - Nothing.

So, here I am forced to ask myself...
Why do we bother giving units weapons at all? Why just just mod there statlines and be done with it?
If none of the actual effects one would expect of a weapon work, then is there any point, (and was there any point) including them in the game at all?

(The potion of strength, if I recall, doubles the units entire strength, (from 3 to 6, or even 4 - 8 is definately -not- a suitable representation of lances) and lasts for considerably longer than one combat round. Perhaps if you wanted to simulate an effect that only lasted the first fight of the game, rather than one supposed to work for the first round of combat...
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Darkmancer
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« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2010, 03:37:46 AM »

The conclusion we came to was.. No, there was no point including weapons in DO, you may as well have just given the unit +2 strength etc.  Now there may be effects we can't determin, but I doubt it.  The only melee weapon that seems to do anything different is the wright blade which we believe does d3 wounds (untested).

The potion of strengh gives +2 strength at least in DO.

Re Flail,
As I said there no perfect solution, you just need to pick the one you thinks best.  Typically calvary has a bit better stats than infantry but less troops, hence if balanced right they get mauled and defeated by infantry that manages to hold, though it doesn't simulate a lance per se, but models how lancer calvaly would work.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 03:43:10 AM by Darkmancer » Logged

Cry woe, destruction, ruin, and decay:
The worst is death, and death will have his day.

[23:04:33] <*Ghabry> The internal design of Darkmancer is just strange
lordbraprus
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« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2010, 04:36:28 AM »

well lets start this honeys.


 i am making others now

the ( 4t) means level 4 top full experience, and 4* means 4 with half exp (yellow bar)
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alavet
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« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2010, 06:13:31 AM »

hey

pls canons to ~550
Imperial Cavalry vs Ragnar Wolves - why so low diffirience in price?

Same for the Imperial Greatswords & Outlaw Infantry

also count could be too low in cost, comparign to Flagellants

treeman to 1300

u didnt answered about prices for items, dear
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lordbraprus
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« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2010, 06:48:49 AM »



the cannon is 540 i forgot to change it there, sorry.

the ragnars are 12, the imperial cavalery 16, but like ragnar has +1T they are only  60 gold cheaper.

infantery has almost same prices for the simpoly reason that there is not  morethan 1 point of atribute diference, but like swordmen have 2handed wapons they cost the same as outlaw, thatare 25 that means that swordmen are better, a little, but better.

and flagelants, well i am sorry alavet but flagelants now, in 7th edition are very poor

new stats=  M4    WS2    BS2    S3    T3    W1    I3    A1    L10
old stats =   M 4  WS3  BS3 S4     T4    W1   I3     A2   L10

capish?

and prices are like jeronimos mod , but with some changes , the wand of jet is 500, osiris is 600 , stormsword 200, and urgok 4500 and wrath banner at 700, then all is the same, we, (me and jeronimo) made that balances togheter.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 07:04:20 AM by lordbraprus » Logged

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alavet
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« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2010, 07:04:38 AM »

GS lobber to  ~920

all night goblins could be too coslty, esp with fanatics. i suggest to decreae by 30-40gc


also, as showed previous FO tourney all cavalry seems to be too udnerpriced. msot of us agreed to increae cavalry in cost liek to 20-30%, for all races
it applies for Boar boys imo


Grimor seems too cheap. isnt he?

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lordbraprus
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« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2010, 07:18:27 AM »

alavet little piece of shit , now you are posting pure shit, dont you uinderstand that now units are diferent, the gblins have +2 M and +1I so i increased i little the price. lobber is fine because now the orc enviroment is that it has better units to buy (goblins, orc and golbin chaman are better, orc boar have +1WS), so i made it 1020, having in count now you have fast spiders 12/12 but weaker 1W, and you have unbreakable snotling 6/6 that maynot kill a shit but they have 3W and area humnan wall , so that is the reason i made lobber 1020.(and human cannon is 540 so lobber is almost the double of it) and alavet believme, you are a woman inside your very soul.

grimorg is fine because he just is a warrior not casues terror no fear nothing just a big warrior with good leadership = L9.

cavalery is fine, they are only 12 / 16 soldiers taht have to deal against 20 25 infantery unit+ archers + magic, cavalkery only have in general , +1 T and +1 S so costing like that is fine, anyways it is more expensvie than FO


 well before say a thing watch your words...
« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 07:52:20 AM by lordbraprus » Logged

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alavet
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« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2010, 07:42:41 AM »

wait, flagellants total bullshit then. why u cost them as 900 if they have only 1 attack now? it affects them HUGELY, now they have liek same stats as infantry.. WS 2 ARE U KIDDING ME?

make them 560, and i MAYBE consider adding them to army.

also why Wand of jet = 500? it have no sense. you can buy lvl2 mage cheaper than wand of jet, and msot of the cases it would be better. (as i remeber, WOJ decrease spellpoints by 1). make it 300-330 it will be enough

------------------
Quote
alavet little piece of shit , now you are posting pure shit, dont you uinderstand that now units are diferent, the gblins have +2 M and +1I so i increased i little the price
no i dotn udnerstand. how could i udnerstand if you didnt mentioned it? im not yet reading your mind (maybe because thre is nothing to read, i mean, its empty, eh?)

also not tested yet, no idea how it wil lturn out but weak WS , liek ws=1 seems only reasonable if units have lots of atatcks (in theory). so WS=1 and attacks = 1 means unit totally useless, even as a wall role.

if some of unit changed stats/specials comparing to original DO you need to post it.
it will be "funny" if i decide to use treeman for 1300 and find that he has WS=3 A=2 and S=5


as for cavalry as i see prices is cluttered about 660 mark, it was liek 600 at FO. 10% icnrease not too high. i know wk (top1 tournye) stated he think cavalry should be increased in cost, so its not my aloen opinion.

pros of cavalry that they're way less scared by magic & arrows casue they're faster. and sicen they're faster they can better flanks and faster coem back to the battle if retreated (and cannot be pursued, and have betetr chance of come back from retreat due of it).

so most Fo tourney battle in the end had cavalry regiments figthing

so price as like ~800 would be beter imo
« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 07:50:51 AM by alavet » Logged

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CidHalsey
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« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2010, 07:56:57 AM »

*delicately steps into the debate*

I'd just hestitate to point out that regardless of weaponstill or attacks, anything that doesn't break works in a wall role. All it needs to do is not die long enough for something useful to come round and smack something in the rear. When considering things as a wall role, all that's really important is armour, toughness, and most importantly the number of men inside the unit.

Trust me, the 25+ man blocks of unbreakable Zombi's in my forthcoming tabletop mod are going to be killer, even though they're WS1, Toughness 2. Just wait till you see what happens when the blood knights come round the back of the unit that engaged them...

Anyway, without being able to see the stats up in front of my nose, and stare at them in greater detail and concentration than my brain will let me at nearly 2 am, I doubt I can balence things currently. I would hesitate to suggest however that only prolonged playtesting would give you a real idea of balence.

The Wand of Jet I'd price around 3/4s of the cost of a high level mage. Offhand I'd idly suggest 450 gold coins. Magic weapons I'd probably run in at 300 each, but I'd really have to do a lot of playtesting to get a feel of how much the blade itself actually helps the unit, irrespective of the magic it casts. Magic banner's I'd probably price in around 600. I'm in a multiple's of three mood

Just in caseanyones overlooked it, I'd also tentatively mention that Dark Omen can, (and should) be playable at battles of 3,000 cold crowns. When you start pricing simple units like rockthrowers and Scorpains at over a thousand gold each, you start looking at some mighty small armies.

You should be able to build a respectable sized army of at least 5 or six units at 3k, it just shouldn't be overtly stylish. Where at 9k you should always be able to field 10 units, no questions asked, with room left for fancy things. (Like mages, and magic items) atop.

Anyway, back to the debate. I've said my piece.
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