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Author Topic: Fair Omen awaits you here  (Read 14888 times)
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Jeronimo
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« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2009, 08:41:55 AM »

Im still reorganizing prices. 1800gc is old FO price (when had Lcheck).

Nitrox, here's my opinion: Empire and Greenskins dont have nothing similar to BGK.
Warhammer is not balanced of course. But has MANY more things. Here we just play with few reg.

Description of BGK say they are strong cavalry... and still cause fear. The Lcheck is just "causing additional fear".
They will continue being bought tough. (new price isnt known)

There are differences between armies. I never said FO "Fair Omen" is "Equal Omen", that sounds like shit.
FO is about giving chances to "never bought" regiments. How? Making changes to cost/heads, not stats.

And psychology. You mistake in talking I changed this for my own: Zombies ddint have "immune to fear", Ogres didnt have "cause fear". Considering your arguments I will respond: Warhammer texts say it, but werent "ticked" on game (Editor revealed me that). So no changes were made as silly whim.

The Lcheck was one of the things that ruined the Tournament. (you saw many BGK in all armies)
Fair Omen is not a joke. Its the key that will open New Doors. Its the light that will end with the currently repeated UD logic armybuild. Its the beggining of free choices...
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 08:53:35 AM by Jeronimo » Logged
Nitrox
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« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2009, 08:47:29 AM »

Some of your changes like give immune to fear zombies and ogre cause fear is ok, but remove the Lcheck from BGK...Sorry, i dont gonna accept this one change.
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Jeronimo
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« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2009, 09:00:16 AM »

There is NO another way.
To keep my Promise "Edit whatever you want": Thats how we will be free armybuild editers at last.

In fact, there are more advantages in removing this, than keeping it.

Empire wont have the Obligation of buying at least 2/3 Flaggelants.
Greenskins only chance was having Banner of Defiance in something like Big'uns. Even strong Wizard wasn't effective.

I... as strategy game player... need to see more possibilities: Many restringed due to Lcheck of BGK.
If you have played much DO you agree with my words. How long will we have to play the same?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 09:25:09 AM by Jeronimo » Logged
bembelimen
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« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2009, 03:53:12 PM »

The Lcheck was one of the things that ruined the Tournament. (you saw many BGK in all armies)
Its the key that will open New Doors. Its the light that will end with the currently repeated UD logic armybuild. Its the beggining of free choices...

I won't say anything to the ruleset before it is finished, but I will comment your sentences. However FO will be, it will definitely not be the first ruleset which ends the "currently repeated UD logic armybuild". I looked through the older tournament UD armybuilds posts and there are nearly all regiments used and every armybuild is different. First took grails as core unit, others two skeleton horsemen and the third used ghouls. So there it was possible to create different build without removing any Lchecks or whatever.

I think the problem is not the Lcheck itself, the problem are the number of grails.
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Jeronimo
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« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2009, 08:31:30 PM »

Interesting point of view Bembelimen.

I thought in another solution. Lets keep Lcheck in BGK. In fact... that is what makes them Black Grail Knights, otherwise would be just another strong cavalry of game with nothing special.

It was a really big mistake the idea of allowing this "Commander REG" from campaign.
Would be the same topic if we could choice Manfred Von Carstein as a regular Wizard (ooops), or Dread King occuping same Reg ubication of what is Treeman in Empire.

A Fair multiplayer battle must not have such Dark Omen BOSSES.
My suggestion now goes further: replacing BGK for my favourite UD Chariots.
Lots of benefits: You still have the Lcheck in a playable "not Boss Reg" and dont lose the "speed Reg".

My idea of chariots is they are 3/3 lvl 3 480gc - lvl 4 720gc (2 levels)
Very nice to complete Skeletons armies: Of course wont have the "Skeleton Flag" like UD catapult.

Since my job is offering a wide open game (with no armybuild restrictions), this means a huge progress. Agree?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 09:28:09 PM by Jeronimo » Logged
Jeronimo
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« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2009, 08:46:40 PM »

Cool, I will check the Singleplayer Regiments missed from campaign (Ghabry's archive)

mmh..
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 09:28:21 PM by Jeronimo » Logged
Jeronimo
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« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2009, 09:09:07 PM »

HEHEHE , so after checking Ghabrys archive. I found actually than Manfred Von Carstein is in fact worst than normal Vampire.

-1 strenght, -1 Toughness + Destroyed if Routed: is that the great Carstein we had to face?
Much preferrible than our beloved vampy if we wanted to have such a powerful wizard with a "weak point".
Anyway, as I already said, No Bosses in Multiplayer.

Chariots seem to be cool, since they are 3/3 with mov 8!. Its already panicking me.
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alavet
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« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2009, 06:05:02 AM »

dont have time to detaield answer but just soem food for your brain: in table warhammer such as "monsters" or "hero" very always allowed in the game.
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Jeronimo
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« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2009, 08:04:48 AM »

Yes, I know that Mr. Alavet.

Replacing BGK x Chariot is not bad idea. The nice Lcheck will be still in multiplayer as weapon.

By doing this, the game becomes pure tactic without rules of core/special/unique.

I wouldnt be against the BGK if: GS and Empire had something "similar" to BGK. I dont feel GS has something "unique" too, so... not a Fair game (talking about the available options in DO Multiplayer, Not the Warhammer world)
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Nitrox
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« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2009, 09:13:18 AM »

ok, so from here i can say that i never gonna touch it
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Jeronimo
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« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2009, 09:27:21 AM »

Did you read all my explanations? (since many posts ago) Im trying to make the game better and you Nitrox only are thinking that things will never be the same.

Have you ever played with chariots? They are awesome charging (with Lcheck as important psychology)

The chariots are original, i dont have to change them and are cool, not imba for playing game.

What multiplayer needs is a "regular regiment" to replace BGK, if you READ everything i have been explaining, you will find why Multiplayer need such rules, just because of 1 Boss Regiment from Campaign...
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Nitrox
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« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2009, 03:38:03 PM »

Black Grails is normally in Warhammer, chariots too...So why removing the BGK? Jero, i will not change my decision and i will not play FO anymore.
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« Reply #42 on: October 05, 2009, 04:08:54 PM »

The eternal problem with making dark omen a fair game for all races using only unit prices is that the only real way to do it is to make a standard unit roster for each race, where all units are equal to eachother.
Like 3 infantry regiments, 1 wizard, 1 cavalry, 1 artillery, 1 archers regiments for each race.
Else than that fairness is relative and the discussion of fair or not wont end, changes to the original game will be rather big so its not gonna agree with all players.

When so many changes are made, prices, stats and units, it will not be easy to convince devoted players that the new version will work. We are not all the same and not all rulesets is to everyones liking and nor should it be or no new systems would be made.

To introduce a new system to more players and try to show of you ideas, i would suggest that instead of tryn to convince the players in a discussion that more about personal flavor than game testing. I would suggest that you plan a day where you are online and offer yourself as an opponent in survival games, almost like a mini multiplayer campaign.
If a system is only used in tournaments where players are forced to play then the system will be a dead system that is not used outside that. To get players to use it in regular for fun battles is the best way to get it working.
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Jeronimo
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« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2009, 05:36:50 AM »

Well... it seems I will have to play my Last Card.

After twisted ideas and tries of resolving this, the only way left is to classify the Regiments in Core/Rare/Machine/Unique. "UMRC Structure"

Core: X
Rare: 3
Machine: 2
Unique: 1? Grin

Its very easy to understand and follow. BGK will return to the Mod. Chariots out.

Explanation!
Core: is all about Infantry, Ranged, Cavalry. No limits for them.
Rare: are Monsters or Overpowered regiments such as Pistoliers, Mummies, 6/6 Scorpions, etc.
Machine: Guess who? Only 5 of these in DO.
Unique: Mages and the outstanding BGK!

Now, the REALITY behind the classification... The limit numbers not refer to how many "copies" can you have of a same Regiment. They refer to how many of that type can you have: Armybuild becomes Super Fair. Reasons?

Rare: If limit is 3 (considering Warhammer rules) you would be able to combine 3 treeman, 3 ogres, 3 flaggelants, so... it becomes another "Horror army" that will crush GreenSkins.
Considering my Clasification, NEW Role of Rare: you may combine these regiments in something like "1 Treeman/2 Flagellants " but no more.... other 7 reg spaces will have to be occupied by Core (in fact there are many Core), perhaps Machines and Wizard.

Machine: hehe, would you like to have 2 Mortars/2 cannons and wait in a hill to the enemy approach? No Sir. Machine limit is referred to all machines deployed. Thats right, you can have for example max 2 orc ballista and no Orc Lobber. No more the "cannon wall". Choose wisely your artillery!!

Unique: Easy... only 1 Mage in combat (anyway, I dont see having 2 or 3 wizards like a good "edited army")
But lets see the most important contribution of Unique type: Undead options.
You may choose between 1 Necromancer, 1 Vampire or 1 BGK.
It would be horrorsome if you combine Vampire + BGK to fight Greenskins.
Also, allows more "variants to plan strategy", something like... Necro, Vamp or BGK? Mmh.. i love BGK with Lcheck but losing magic casting... Choose wisely!!
BGK without Wizard at his side has own benefits... if Gold Limit is high, you will able to deploy a Powerful Grail with much Exp + shields / 3 Items Slots (with good Items), since you dont spend money in expensive Wizards, osiris, etc.

Conclusion: If we combine my "UMRC Structure" + upcoming better prices of FO = A finally better Mod with chances for every race (talking specially of those Greenies). Cheesy

GS example: Standard Armybuild where you make 1-2-3-4 (use all limited-types leaving you with space for 4 of Core)
1 Orc Shaman (U), 2 Orc Lobber (M), 2 Giant Scorpions/1 Troll (R), 2 Arrer Boyz/2 Orc Boyz (C).

The Last Card has been played.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 06:20:32 AM by Jeronimo » Logged
Ghabry
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« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2009, 06:25:11 AM »

UMRC-Structure? hmmmmmmmmmm (ok this one linked is planned without changing unit costs)
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