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Author Topic: Fair Omen awaits you here  (Read 14890 times)
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lordbraprus
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« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2009, 03:09:40 PM »

[Jeronimo]     Alavet!

Well, about BGK i think that would solve the problem.. but mage lvl 3+osiris? I think that is MUCH easier to deal.

Killing a Wizard.. is not a task of another world. Btw Osiris is at 800gc! Wand of Jet at 480! Do you wanted to teleport and Osiris me  Smiley?  Its lots of gold.

Recommendations: Banner of Wrath, Morks Banner (Boar boyz), Use of Antimagic, Shields Anti-magic spell. Arrows (Orc arrer boyz are good shooters). Trolls maybe (I dont know how resistent are against Osiris).

Come on Alavet. You can resolve this without my help. You are a good player.
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« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2009, 03:32:39 PM »

[Jeronimo]

Well, after long Tourney, I see Greenskins have serious problems dealing with 4 BGK. My purpose is to make them +600gc. From 1800 to 2400.

About Items, I feel they are OK.

About Ruleset, this sentence "To participate you need 3 armies, 1 of each race with the Tournament Gold Limit." I will specify that is the Max. you can have... only 1 army of each race Smiley
Besides clearying that TD you cant repeat map/race unless is a match to end a draw.
I will add 5th draw condition: Everyone dies, like JIM's experience with Heart of Woe.
Remake 10 maps List, add Great Forest x Tutorial (some players have problem to connect it), The Empire x Road to Bogenhafen (this is too large and defensive, typical map for Wizards with Teleport), Grissburg Town x Loren Lake - Holy Shrine (its very large, and still players confuse about the positions, deploying their Regiments towards West).

Of course, I will never share the Computer with my brother. I promise this. Not only slowed Tournament a lot, also was quite annoying to play with him staying at mi side and shouting (move there!, attack there! , look where did you targeted the Mortar! Oh no Jeronimo you are BAD! Angry , blah blah blah).

I will appreciate more opinions to change Balance Mod even more. BGK to 2400 is a good idea.
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« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2009, 09:04:03 PM »

Are there any plans to write the ruleset into the wiki (well formated)?
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lordbraprus
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« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2009, 09:43:41 PM »

after changing black grial price, me"lordbrpsus" think we can use the new prices and armies, and make a ruleset for tournaments, as the 15/3g or 30/9g, but different... anothersistem, i would vote, for the real arhammer rules table top game, heroes, special, basic and singular units. and make a table points that values the armies, a "unique" one,.. as the game.
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« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2009, 08:32:42 PM »

[Jeronimo] Forget everything I wrote. I will do different.

BGK same price 1800-2700-3600. Description say they are the strong Bretonnian reanimated.
What im going to do is to remove Leadership Check. They will have same stats, still strong warriors, but LCheck out.

I know that skeleton flag was removed from Screaming skull catapult because made them more awful that they were.
So, removing Lcheck from Grails will also balance the game (and race). Their performance will be equal like when they face others UD (you see they dont are so great). They will still have "cause fear" but this effect is weaker than "cause terror", and even weaker than Lcheck.

The truely reason GS cant face Black Grails is because that psychology. BGrails with 2attacks have double chance of creating the PANIC TEST in Greenskins troops. Removing that, they will be able to face them (consider same BGK price).

Others things I noticed... Why GS suck so much against other races? Well one of the points is fixed (remove Lcheck).
My second fix to Fair Omen will create difference among Gs monsters heads.

You see Scorpion 90, Spider 120, Troll 300. The 3 options suck when talking of 7 or 9k. Not worthless.
Greenskins lack of fast units.. Unique mosnters or just Boar Boyz is NOT ENOUGH to face Empire shooters or Undead cavalries. So... what am I proposing for next release?

 Grin "Goblins cavalry" I call it. Considering we need less duplicated numbers I thought in Scorpions 6/6, like the 6/6 Wraiths.
Spiders 3/3, like Ogres 3/3. Doing this only 2 unique monsters left: 1 Troll, 1 Treeman.
Of course i will reorganize costs: this would mean a huge progress for GS, seeing them now with different eyes. Shocked
6 scorpions advance: have 5 mov points.
3 spiders advanvce: cheaper reg, 5 mov points + unimpeded by difficult terrain + radar (360ยบ view)
The stats wont be changed, are Original. So these guys have 4 wounds each one, although still are awful in combat (Initiative 1!)

Greenskins will have now some sort of 2 "Tank" options. Mov 5 and 4 wounds each unit in Reg (without mention the obvious that they have no Item Slots and keep their 3 Basic Armors).
Goblins Infantry can be combined with these "monsters tanks". Lets consider the truth about the race... Monsters were made for Goblins because they lack of some speed racial companion, but 1 monster doesnt serve much: they must be at least 3 (spiders) or 6 (scorpions).

I think this was what Alavet was asking for. Some tanky for GS, and at the same time, making a TRUE difference between Monsters options.
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« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2009, 08:51:04 PM »

[Jeronimo] Lordbraprus who are you?? Cheesy

There is no need to make special rules. Lets think in this game like something that can be played even for non-Warhammer persons. When someone without that knowledge only wants to have fun, can see prices and just click, with the certainty its all balanced. As I always wanted: only clicking wihtout considering extra-valuating data.

CAN BE DONE. Im just following the correct way. The big 9k Tournament was not a WHIM. Was the chance to do a Mega Big Test to both parts: Mod + Ruleset. After that experience I am now in higher condition to improve the game.

I read and also felt the experiences of 9k battles (this gold limit revealed things quicker. Thats the main reason I insisted 9k).
Read above, GS and BGK changes. Are needed if we want to be free of Warhammer clasification.

What happens if we play with that of special, unique, core... happens for example that Alavet armies will always have 3 Flagellants, UD armies will always have 1 BGK, and so on... The Warhammer clasification is reducing the Freedom of players because considering some are OverPowerful, they will mean the CLASSIC OPTION.
"If you dont have them in army you are not intelligent at editing armies..." I dont know if People realize my analysis.

I hope some PC Strategy Player (not heavy-Warhammer), also understands my point of view. Im making Dark Omen a PC Game for everybody (like when I sat to play this game for first time when was a kid).

@Warhammer fanatics: The Clasification of Unique, Core, Special Reg is something of Table Board Game.
Of course is needed there, with so many powerful heroes and strong reg... But for Dark Omen, despite being created in consideration of Original Game, can be done in different way.
Here we (I modder of FO) can change this, balancing different parts and not having nothing so Super (like BGK) or too Weak (like useless GS monsters in big battles).
The Result: A real time strategy game with 3 races, commanding infantry, archers, cavalry, mages and artillery of different style. Each Army with his strong/weak points etc. Just a cool game! Smiley
« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 09:03:54 PM by lordbraprus » Logged

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Jeronimo
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« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2009, 09:57:46 PM »

 Cool Well. Was time of having my own account.

Renovated FO, Renovated Jeronimo. Post your comments sires.

Changes for next release 12th October: BGK without Lcheck, GS Monsters as Small Reg (3/3, 6/6) to make them useful in big battles.

The Goal is to have multiple options when editing armies.
BGK: You wont need anymore Special Armybuild to face these nightmare knights.
With Empire you always needed some Flagellants/Treeman.
With GS you... well, total massacre.
Now game will be more open for different strategies.

Monsters Squads: Greenskins lack of variety of "Fast Regiments".
I killed many birds with 1 shot by doing this change: difference between monsters, some "goblin cavalry" (since they have 5 mov points), and "Tank Regiment" because these monsters have 4 wounds/3 armor each one.
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alavet
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« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2009, 10:17:02 AM »

i hate BGK without LS check. why they ever need now? wtf? who will ever buy them for 1,8 or even 1,4k now? whats will be unique in UD then? their vamprie iwll be decresed i nspeed, mummies will suck more agaisnt more strong opponents and bgk have no LS check? WTF?!

apart from this i actually like your changes, despite of your "style of posting". your proposed changes really good. mainly i like it cause you'r going to change stats of the units, the idea i appreciate much. change vampire MS to 4 as well..

i think after you will made all these changes you need to create big .changelog file with diffirience from orginal DO, so it will be possible to browse breifly through it and make adjustments easier (cause now there is a lot of posts and its hard to search)

gl man!
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Nitrox
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« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2009, 02:26:41 PM »

mainly i like it cause you'r going to change stats of the units, the idea i appreciate much. change vampire MS to 4 as well..




That's why i dont gonna play again FO Smiley.
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Jeronimo
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« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2009, 01:13:23 AM »

Aclaration comment.

Although I suggested changing stats, Im now not convinced of that. I prefer to reorganize prices and head.
Removing Lcheck is still a good idea because allows GS to fight them. (You realize many BGK could kill GS easily)
And my propose is to "destroy" special editing army rules. Attack to Warhammer?? Cheesy
Coming future: "Mmh, perhaps i will buy 1 grail, 2 horsemen, some ghouls, 1 wraith, 1 necromancer!"
BGK will be still special because does 2att/2 wounds, causing fear and never flees. Think in them as fast flagellants.
The game becomes even MORE TACTICAL with this. Note: Still UD Catapult has Lcheck! (buy it Smiley )

Truth: I wont change stats, many dont like the idea, and in fact, me neither. But BGK change was needed because allows more diversity in other races when facing them.. Lets see, in future you wont "be afraid" if your opponent masses BGK: the consecuence of their Lcheck pushed all players to buy flagellants. YOU already know this.

Vampire will be the same, new price of course: I reorganized all wizards in a better scale.
Mummies will be still the "Stars", because i wont give Big'un more att, or whatever I wrote before. Same stats all Reg.
[/quote]
apart from this i actually like your changes, despite of your "style of posting".[/quote]
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 01:47:04 AM by Jeronimo » Logged
Jeronimo
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« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2009, 01:28:06 AM »

I have finished the Re-Valuation of prices. I will share wizards new costs (notice there is more difference)
Shaman Goblin: 360
Shaman Orc: 480
Ice Mage: 540
Bright Wizard: 600
Necromancer: 720
Vampy!: 1200
First, I clasified in worst/better Spell Book, then revising stats I found some of them shared similar numbers (the 480/540/600) so they have only 60 difference considering the spell book.
But Necro, Goblin are slighty better/worst than average. So they are +120, -120.
And finally Vampire, is x2 average cost +120 (1080+120 = 1200). This also creates a initial 480 difference with Necro (previous FO was only 360, now a bit more).
I already like this new balance because makes my favourite combo expensive: Vampire + Osiris (1200+800=2000gc)
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Jeronimo
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« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2009, 01:42:39 AM »

About Monsters Squads...
6/6 Scorpions: 1200
Triple Ghabry: 660
1 Troll: 300 (same)
Considering the Boar Boyz are at 600, this has been the suitable prices. Arent they a bit... expensive? Yes, otherwise some man would mass them at 3k. However Imagine some Monster armybuild
6 Scorp x 2 (2400), Troll x 2 (600): 3k
Oh nice,, 12 scorp, 2 trolls, but scorp are moving together, so you can handle them with arrows, magic (and not miss)
Also makes "Terror Compacted", the best was when they were separated, so allowed multiple tries, but now... Troll has that honor only, and the triple spider cost 660 (lets say a Spider Squad costs you 1320gc and occupies 2 Reg Slots).

All is finely balanced.

PD: Treeman new price is 1320 (yeah, like 2 Spider reg) and at the same time... like 1 Super Mercenary cavalry: 660--1320 (is more Balanced now). Other changes are in HU/UD too... one on the points i focused was "Imagining Goblins being Victorious", considering that small chance they have to deal with ranged HU or scary UD.
Of course they dont have it that easy, but I worked hard this time for revaluating all races.

apart from this i actually like your changes, despite of your "style of posting".
Whats bad with my style of posting? haha
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 01:50:03 AM by Jeronimo » Logged
Nitrox
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« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2009, 07:41:58 AM »

For example i dont like remove lcheck from BGK Wink so, sorry Jeronimo but some of your changes i dont gonna like.
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Jeronimo
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« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2009, 07:55:43 AM »

Hi Nitrox. Removing that is crucial if we want a Fair Game. Otherwise Special editing rules must be used.
And believe me Nitrox, Im trying to keep original reg. But BGK counts more like a "hero", not even close to a Standard Regiment. BGK still will be same of potent. Combined with swords you know its a formidable adversary.

Whats the problem with Regiments "heroes like"? They are too imba in relation with others... so rules such as "you can have only 1 BGK" becomes more an OBLIGATION than a free Regiment to choice from 12 options (the 12 UD regiments).

Same happens with Flagellants, they are far to be "Heroes like" but if you face UD with Empire... you think "I MUST have at least 2 flaggelants to face the 90% obvious BGK my opponent will have in his army".
I hate this type of LOGIC. Look Nitrox.. if Dark Omen had more Regiments such as BGK (with his Lcheck/power), I would leave it, but if only UD have such an advantage... I dont agree with the Lcheck.

I hope Im not the only one that notices this... Do you want to keep editing army with the same logic forever? "If he buys the BGK I will need... to face it due to his Lcheck" Its no longer funny.
Cuts Imagination. You edit thinking in BGK always you make a Greenskin army, tell me the truth.

What will be of Tactical real time game? My decision will help to explore other possibilities. Perhaps more Imperial/Mercenary troops in Empire. Its Over-used the Elf archers + Flagg.

I dont agree with Alavet about BGK are going to suck. They are still great cavalry.

@Nitrox: Before anything you are going to write... tell me first if you understand my point of view.
And of course, I would like to HEAR your reason about why you dont like my idea. What do you expect from a FO?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 08:07:00 AM by Jeronimo » Logged
Nitrox
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« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2009, 08:20:48 AM »

Fair Game? You joking now right? Warhammer is not a Fair game, one army is better second is better and third is the best. In Warhammer there isnt a balanced armies, one is better than one and searching a balance for own in a created system is something like ...Joke.



Changing Prices, editing a size of armies is ok. But changing rules of the units, stats etc..(I'm not talking that you changing the stats!) It's suck in my opinion, rules for BGK was made and editing it for your own suck Jeronimo. For example i dont gonna buy BGK without lcheck they suck, with cost 1800...It's a joke right? 2attack/2wounds dont make them overpower and good unit.
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