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Author Topic: Back to the Roots (BTTR)  (Read 17634 times)
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Darkmancer
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« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2010, 06:18:38 PM »

I'm sorry Jeroimo I dislike your method of balancing, I find it too overblown.

@ Mika your spending way too much time on Wikipedia, Seriously Smiley

I'm posting a ruleset with a slightly different take to bttb here: http://forum.dark-omen.org/index.php/topic,690.msg6864.html

Im' posting it on another thread too avoid derailing this one too much Smiley
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 06:32:26 PM by Darkmancer » Logged

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Mikademus
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« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2010, 09:22:24 PM »

@ Mika your spending way too much time on Wikipedia, Seriously Smiley

You mean the "see the intent not the letter" and "gaming the system" (WP:GAME)? Well, those ARE two very good principles, and I have recetnly been involved in conflict with an exhausting editor with autism or Asperger Syndrome, which made me study up on WP principles. So yeah, you're right... Sad
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Jeronimo
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« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2010, 08:12:12 PM »

I'm sorry Jeroimo I dislike your method of balancing, I find it too overblown.
Perhaps yes. I admit centring attention for every single detail (it drives to obsession).
Its because Im very analyst about Systems and Structures, all that stuff makes me think hard.


Concerning to Bembelimen POST, I also dont think during battle (gaah Pistoliers should had been at 5 points instead of 4...). When you are in battle, nothing more matters than playing focus in action.

However, its the "behind scenes" what matters to me. I will "enjoy" the moment of Armybuild if my conscience approves the System as "OK", and this feeling is more important that you imagine.

You have to look for the "reliable feeling", although it feeling comes in different ways.
Example: Pistoliers in relation with orc boyz are OK (and Darkmancer approves the system).
But Me, then I relation Pistoliers with all regiments, also orc boyz in relation with Skeletons, mercenary infantry, etc.

Its the deep analysis in which every Regiment is in relation with every other Regiment (and Fair Omen borned from that obsession because I needed to satisfy my conscience).
PD: My Rule for Wizard is of that kind (since there is not well balanced Magic Books).

Dont want to harm anyone with this Post, but I did it to show my stance concerning to balance = +fun
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lordbraprus
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« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2010, 01:07:46 AM »

i .. well i will tell what i think ok?

i have to admint that no matter what ruleset, i had funny games, maybe not GG but yes funny games, or funny moments during a battle, but if we speak about playing tournament, we are speaking about challenge, not enemisties, but yes challenge , and defeat-enemie dessires.. hmm what i am trying to say, but it cost me a lot is that in tournament i want to have a good game, and to do a good game , you want or not, you need a balanced game system, units/magic prices and sizes.

like bembelimen said, about games with gharby or  olly, i have no problem in play any moment of the day a game, despite of  use what ever rule or moddified prices or just original game and have funny games and  not compite just play and have funn, but if i will play a tournament and think it has no sense , the tt would hve nothing special or different in playing daily games on hamachi, the name "tournament" would be just wrong, i can say i play the tournament and confirm and the day of tt play 1 or 2 battles and leave and say i dont care if the bann me 2 month for leaving tt, anyway i can play the same kind of games on hamachi with an online user.

i won the last tt , and well i was happy yes i had funn but no GGs e.g i had to fight against 270 haldbeiders but oh yes i had a funny moment when my cannon it one regiment of haldbeiders and the retreat from battle, and then 4 more haldbeiders regiments masacred the cannon, that is not GG, in TT i wanna play fair games, balanced prices sizes of unit and magic nad 2 or 3 restrinctions, not like my brothers ones Tongue but well things like BGK or elven archer or mortar units... and magic.
orcs will never be ok with original system and there a several erros with zombies, wraith, ogres etc.. that we know there are.

so , i hope you understand what i said. in commom matches ok no problem to play anything but TT i want to play really GG , and win or not, i know that i will have funn in that way..
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lordbraprus
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« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2010, 01:11:49 AM »

oh now i remeber thing like "i had 9 pistoliers and he 20 orcs inf, but like we both knows who was winning we made CC" yeah but talking about TT you wont just give him the victory, there is where the really meaning of play a tt appears, what we really want when we talk about rules ruleset and mod is to make one for the multiplayer TT, and what bembelimen exampleded was for normal matches, friendship matches, whatever you call them, am i right?  Wink
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ito maquiesves
alavet
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« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2010, 07:21:14 AM »

totally agreed with lordbraprus and in fact i little amazed with lenght of his post.

what is work with friend matches aint work with tourneys. and sadly, i rarely play friendly ones Smiley

gj lord! Smiley
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Jeronimo
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« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2010, 02:21:11 PM »

I realized the thread was going to the "friendly match" side (Mika, Bembe)
The things I posted were more concerning Tournament Days.

1) My point of view starts from the Pre-Armybuild. That is the first thing that calls my attention (friendly or TT).
Can I trust in this System, or it is very obvious this Regiment is underpriced/overpriced? and ruin the 45 Reg equality, which means that my opponent might be considering to spam them. Huh?

2) IN battle, you can have "funny records" no matters the Rulesets. Thats is NOT new info (this come from virtual dice, of course, that LUCK itself can give us good or bad moments... because we talk of DO back engine, not human rules).

3) I do believe that what works in friendly matches can work on Tournaments. No need to divide gameplay because is not "official TT". Just talk to your friend, ask him which TT Ruleset to pick or "without rules".
Its something of general consensus. Example: Lets play with 5k/15..., lets play 7k NB..., lets play "Restrict"...

"They both will decide which or what to play. No Rules or Mix of Rulesets is allowed." Smiley
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bembelimen
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« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2010, 02:53:58 PM »

talking about TT you wont just give him the victory

sure I did.

what bembelimen exampleded was for normal matches, friendship matches, whatever you call them, am i right?  Wink
I realized the thread was going to the "friendly match" side (Mika, Bembe)

Nope, both examples were tournament matches, but I think, I should stop here, the priority of each player in tournament it too different...
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lordbraprus
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« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2010, 06:27:49 PM »

well, i expresed what i think thats all.. i play everything but in diferrent way depending if it is a normal match or a TT. bembelimen way of play is peculiar, individual .. mine is general as me, my brother or alavet does, and more players from  here. 

i understand bembelimen point but for him, signing in a TT is the same as play a normal match and the thing is no like that.there should no be 1st 2nd or 3th places in that way...

what i have thinked now is that the bembelimen way of play can work for a players meeting :O somehting like the TT that all players go to chat some day of the month and play battles to have fun Cheesy friendly matches. that is good idea i believe :S 1 day for TT and one day for funny friendly nice games.
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ito maquiesves
Demigan
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« Reply #39 on: March 14, 2014, 10:32:14 AM »

After reading most of the rule-sets in these forums, I realised that it's trying to combat symptoms instead of the ailment.

The fact that you can play lame means there is an imbalance. Instead of creating rules that rely on both players abiding to them, if they even know about them, it would be better to solve the roots of the problem.

The Horn is an incredible item as it can send units fleeing, turning them into cannon fodder for anyone walking through, and taking the rest out of the fight as long as they flee. Not to mention the fear-resistant Undead benefiting more of it's effects then Orcs/humans.
Instead of banning it or making it expensive, you can curb it's effects. If possible allow it to rally troops at it's current radius. For it's effect on enemy regiments you can make the effect so small you need to be in combat with them to have it work.

Teleport is obviously overpowered. You can easily teleport in, blast an enemy and be back before they react. Even against the AI they have barely any time to react when done properly, let alone a human player that is managing armies outside of the view of the attacked regiment. Increasing it's mana consumption to 3, or creating a maximum distance it can be used it are great ways to limit it's effectiveness, especially the hit&run tactics that evolve near the end of a match that I encountered against my brother.

Some regiments are obviously overpowered, otherwise there wouldn't be any rules to limit how many you can have. You could limit their power by increasing their costs or building in vulnerabilities. Having a fearless, heavily armored, maximum-fear inducing, heavily hitting and fast horse-regiment is all great and all but shouldn't there be trade-offs?
Example:
-Light infantry functioning as cheap ass skirmishers or cannon fodder, small-medium squads, good manouvering, pretty fast when it can walk around. (just examples, you don't need to agree with these units, Grudgebringer infantry, Countess guard, outlaw infantry, night goblins, zombies)
-Medium infantry functioning as Shocktroopers to take the brunt of any assault, medium-large squads, medium manouvering, slow units.(Skeletons, ghouls, Orc Boys, imperial greatswords, dwarf warriors)
-Heavy infantry (cheaper then Heavy Horse and also for heavy combat), small-large squads, varied manouvering depending on size, very slow. (Flagellants, Orc Big un's, Mummies, Wights)
-Light horse, small-medium squads, very good manouvering, extremely fast units to run down stuff or tear into archer/artillery units. Light armor but have a good punch. (Carlson's cavalary, Ragnars wolves, Skeleton horsemen)
-Heavy horse, small-large squads, tough manouvering, heavy armor means slow movement slightly faster then Light Infantry (Orc boar boys, Knights of the Realm, Grail knights, Black Grail knights, Grudgebringer cavalry)
-Special units, usually small squads with a lot of varying abilities. (wraiths, wizards, Treemen, chariot, spiders, scorpions, trolls, etc).
Note that this is just a quick mockup, the actual abilities etc should still vary from faction to faction, but a more clear line between units could help create a better balance. Attacking archers would be more profitable with light horse then Heavy horse as light horse can close the distance faster. Cheaper units can still be fielded without being nothing more then a temporary barrier that deals practically no damage to the ultra-heavy units like Black Grail.
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olly
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« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2014, 11:29:58 AM »

Whilst enjoying playing all the rule sets and admiring the thought that goes into them all, I had always envisioned that one day we would be able to add in all the Warhammer races and achieve something as close to the Warhammer Rulebooks as possible. This would probably provide further debate on whether they are even balanced themselves but thankfully we are now at that stage of Dark Omen modding that we can add in new sprites and maps.

Smiley


Horn - As far as I can remember, the Horn sadly doesn't rally troops, although haven't tested in many years and with recent modding advancements, there maybe a slim chance to alter factors such as these.


Teleport - It would be great to mod mana and teleport distances but we probably require the source code that the original developers unfortunately were unable to release to us. Only a remake project could provide this but what a game it would be. We live in hope!

Your trade off concept sounds good and I look forward to playing it, so let us know if you require any Beta testers or info. 
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and back in Nuln, the ageing Graf Berhardt smiled his secret smile of pride whenever he heard the latest tales of his eldest son's ever growing chain of glorious victories -(sothr manual)
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« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2014, 06:05:15 PM »

Quote
Teleport - It would be great to mod mana and teleport distances but we probably require the source code that the original developers unfortunately were unable to release to us. Only a remake project could provide this but what a game it would be. We live in hope!


:p
this type of thing is very easy to track down using Cheat Engine

the table of magic items/spells is at file offset 0x000E2A18 in the english executable
each entry is 40 bytes in length
see http://wiki.dark-omen.org/do/DO/Magic_Items for id's

DWORD id; // 0x00
BYTE unknown[8]
DWORD cost_mana; // 0x0C
BYTE unknown[12]
DWORD max_range; // 0x1C
BYTE unknown[8]



« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 06:11:11 PM by aqrit » Logged
olly
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« Reply #42 on: March 15, 2014, 07:57:48 PM »

Perfect!

Smiley

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and back in Nuln, the ageing Graf Berhardt smiled his secret smile of pride whenever he heard the latest tales of his eldest son's ever growing chain of glorious victories -(sothr manual)
Demigan
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« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2014, 08:37:03 AM »

Is there a good introduction in modding Dark Omen somewhere here? I assume there is but I'm short on time atm to look for it.

I would also like a more expanded group of units available. My ideal vision would have only a few options where one unit-type can easily wipe out an army with only a small variation, such as Wraiths going up against a no-magic army.
The best thing that could happen is that there are enough options for every army to build just about any army-type you want. I'm still thinking what the best trade-offs would be for each group. If I am going to mod it, I would probably end up making my own regiment types rather then using the current one's.

Now I'm not well-versed in Warhammer lore, so if these idea's aren't in line with it tell me and I'll try to change it.

Greenskins seem to be a mix of low-power to Heavy hitters. Goblins are a bunch of easy-to-scare and lacking a punch groups more meant as cannon fodder than anything else, while their Archers are already a full melee group with the added power of arrows. I would try to enforce this rift by giving the greenskin armies either ultra-light units or Heavy, tough creatures. Their 'abilities' seem to be centered on sly cunning (fanatics) and physical abilities (regeneration, 360 view) mixed with mystical abilities that boost the unit itself (magic resistance). These would be the unique factors I would try to put into the army.

Empire is a middle ground. I would give them lower damage potentials per-turn than Orcs. The empire mostly seems to rely on ingenuity to win: Steam tanks, cannons, crossbows, pistols and a lot of well-build armors to protect their men. I would give them the ability to wear the most armor in the game and give them the most tactical advantages given to them by their ingenuity, such as larger arrow range, slightly faster troops and good manouvering.

The Undead are in my eyes large groups of meatbags in worn armor. They would get a lot more hitpoints (An arrow in dead flesh doesn't do much) but low armor ratings compared to the other two factions. They would rely mostly on fearless warriors as well as mystical and psychological abilities that are projected on their enemies rather then themselves (Fear, ignore armor) and a few on themselves (incorporeal).
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olly
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« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2014, 12:09:48 AM »

Nice ideas and if you haven't already, try Wh32Edit as a good starting point and there's lots of information on our wiki page, that I'm in the process of combining into a complete modder's guide.

http://wiki.dark-omen.org/do/Special:AllPages

You'll have to start your own thread soon, when you have a name for your project.

Smiley
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and back in Nuln, the ageing Graf Berhardt smiled his secret smile of pride whenever he heard the latest tales of his eldest son's ever growing chain of glorious victories -(sothr manual)
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