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Jeronimo
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« Reply #180 on: April 02, 2010, 01:55:10 AM »

NEW ITEM LIST

SWORDS

Grudgebringer -1
Runefang 0
Storm 0
Infernal 0
Skabskrath 1

SHIELDS

Spelleater 1
Enchanted+Dragonhelm -1 (must buy together)
Ptolos 0

OTHERS

Urgok 8
Potion 1
Heart 1

BANNER

Wrath 4
Arcane 0
Mork 0
Defiance 2

MAGE

Osiris 3
Jet 1
Ashur 1

To sum up:
-1 x 2
0 x 6
1 x 6
2 x 1
3 x 1
4 x 1
8 x 1


After some hours of dedication I believe have found the best list of Items for this Ruleset.

I kept some "1 point" costs reducing mainly Swords (because they are expensive for what they do) and Proteccions (because spending 500gc in something that perhaps wont be used, is not attractive). Although Ptolos can be useful, sadly FAILS 50% of times.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 02:05:25 AM by Jeronimo » Logged
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« Reply #181 on: April 02, 2010, 02:35:27 AM »

keep in mind this is only 5k armies

they arent expected nor spose to have tons of items, thats for 9k

also just out of interest do you have an extra sword? Infernal?
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Jeronimo
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« Reply #182 on: April 02, 2010, 03:01:42 AM »

@Flak: Not extra sword Smiley . Yes I know its for 5k, also that the 2 points Defiance is good, because at 250 there are others items of 1 point (Heart, Wand).

Now the preety nice new list comes in hand with a different 5k/15 tables, which bring up lower prices for best Regiments. Example: Mummy 6 points (since +2 of defiance = 8 ) Wink

Second, in this Neo 5k/15, buying extra armor is allowed.
I never saw good to deny these expensive shields (now perhaps armours to Ogres, Artillery, Wights, Mummies may be considered).

Next Post will show my total review of 5k/15, which in combo with Items above and Allowed Shields, end with a renovated Ruleset.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 03:08:08 AM by Jeronimo » Logged
Jeronimo
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« Reply #183 on: April 02, 2010, 03:03:26 AM »

next one
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« Reply #184 on: April 02, 2010, 07:03:52 AM »

EMPIRE

Crossbowmen                   3/4/5
Imperial Cannon               3/3/3
Bright Wizard                   2/1/0
Halbardiers                      1/1/2
Bowmen                          2/2/2
Flagellants                       4/5/6
Mortar                             5/5/5
Ogres                              1/1/0
Swordsmen                     1/1/1
Greatswords                    1/2/2
Ice Mage                         2/1/0
Mercenary Cavalry            1/1/1
Pistoleers                         4/5/6
Knights of the Realm        1/1/0
Dwarf Warriors                 1/2/2
Glade Guards                   3/3/3
Wood Elf Archers              6/5/4
Treeman                          2/-/-

GREENSKINS

Goblin Archers                  1/1/2
Goblins                            1/1/1
Spider                             1/1/2
Scorpion                          1/1/2
Goblin Shaman                 1/1/0
Orc Arrers                        2/2/2
Orc Boars                         2/2/3
Orc Boyz                          1/1/1
Orc Big'uns                      2/3/3
Orc Bolt Thrower               1/1/1
Orc Rock Lobber                5/5/5
Orc Shaman                      2/1/0
Troll                                 1/0/1
Goblin Archer w.Fanatic     1/2/2
Goblin w.Fanatic               1/1/2

UNDEAD

Vampire                           5/4/3
Ghouls                             2/3/3
Mummies                         6/5/4
Necromancer                    3/2/1
Scull Catapult                   2/2/2
Skeleton Archers               1/1/1
Skeleton Horsemen           2/2/3
Skeleton Warriors              1/1/0
Black Grail                        8/8/-
Wights                             1/2/3
Wraiths                            2/2/8
Zombies                           1/0/1

I have worked in this list for some hours. Add Item List below to this, Shields allowed, and you get what I call "Neo 5k/15" (for everyone). Cheesy Deep Tweak! Cheesy

SWORDS                     SHIELDS

Grudgebringer -1         Enchanted+Dragonhelm -1 (must buy together)
Skabskrath 1               Spelleater 1
Infernal 0                    Ptolos 0  
Storm 0                              
Runefang 0                OTHERS                      -1 x 2
                                                                   0 x 6
BANNER                     Urgok 10                     1 x 6
                                 Potion 1                      2 x 1
Wrath 5                      Heart 1                       3 x 1
Defiance 2                                                    5 x 1
Mork 0                        MAGE                        10 x 1
Arcane 0                    Osiris 3              
                                   Jet 1
                                 Ashur 1
 
Aclaration: Here I did Wrath (+1 to 5), same as 1 artillery mortar, take into account that anti-magics cost 0 point. Also Urgok was changed (+2 to 10), because is obviously better than 1 BGK which cost is 8...


« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 07:56:06 AM by Jeronimo » Logged
alavet
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« Reply #185 on: April 02, 2010, 09:41:23 AM »

i actually very like Jeronimo suggestions even thouhg diagree with some minor items:

potion&HoW to 0
banner of wrath definately not 4 maybe 5 or so
banner of antimagic to 1 still

rest is prefectly fine


Empire

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Imperial Bowmen 2/2/3      FINE
Treeman 2/-/-                     FINE
Flagellants 3/4/4 or 5/3/3 or 3/5/5 (<= best imho?)           3/4/5 as wk suggested is good
Imperial Cannon 1/2/2          its heavilly map dependant, at some maps canons is better than crossbowmen and could be fine ever for 3 points (like empire map or training camp) but at some its very bad.
so my suggestion is 2/1/2 if we want to reduce cost in any way.

Swordmen are fine at 1/2 i think they're fine at the moment.
dwarves to 2/1/1-2 possibly better decision or 1/2 not a big problem if we want to "introduce" them to fights.

GREENSKINS

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Orc Bolt Thrower 1/2/2 or 1/1/1 by my opinion it should be 1/2/1 still, wk army good example of terribad DO pathing, whenhe can process arrow shower for your troops while you try to pass these artillery
Troll 2/1/0     idk, trolls seems better than scorpions but they cost so much more, so i dont think making them 1/2/2 is too catastrophic


UNDEAD
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ghouls 1/2/2 agreed
skeleton horsemen 2/4/2 or 2/3/3 or 2/3/2 or 2/2/2     2/3/2 seems fien for me. excatly showing their perfomance - paper unit but fast and cause fear, but fear not superior deciding factor there since all UD have it... and it costs a lot for 3 pts as well.
wraiths 4/4/4       perhars too much but i can live with that. be prepaired for lotsa crying there, though
Wights 2/2/2 or 2/2/3    2/2/2 good!
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Jeronimo
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« Reply #186 on: April 02, 2010, 06:26:02 PM »

Allright, here I go again. I will remake Items List, because after testing some armybuilds, it shows me that is very convenient to buy Grudgebringer Sword (-1)... so no more extra points.

SWORDS

Grudgebringer 0
Runefang 1
Storm 1
Infernal 1
Skabskrath 1

SHIELDS

Spelleater 2
Enchanted 0
Ptolos 1
Dragonhelm 0

OTHERS

Urgok 10
Potion 0
Heart 1

BANNER

Wrath 5
Arcane 1
Mork 1
Defiance 2

MAGE

Osiris 3
Jet 1
Ashur 1

To sum up:
0 x 4
1 x 10
2 x 2
3 x 1
5 x 1
10 x 1


@Alavet: HoW cost 1 because is very useful for UD or HU. It can do lots of damage if you know how to play it Smiley, Im ok with PoS at 0, sometimes is wasted, or regiment retreats during CC.
This is best List IMO removing the "extra-point" idea.

Remember guys: Shields allowed! (good for Ogres, Artillery, Wights, Mummies)
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Jeronimo
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« Reply #187 on: April 02, 2010, 07:40:40 PM »

An obviously renovation of Neo 5k/15, without the "extra point idea" bothering around.
I remember ALL their stats, so each relation was comparing their performances and costs.

EMPIRE

Crossbowmen                   2/3/3
Imperial Cannon               2/2/2
Bright Wizard                   2/1/0
Halbardiers                      1/1/2
Bowmen                          1/2/2
Flagellants                       3/4/5
Mortar                             4/4/3
Ogres                              1/1/2
Swordsmen                     1/1/0
Greatswords                    1/2/2
Ice Mage                         2/1/0
Mercenary Cavalry            1/2/2
Pistoleers                         3/4/5
Knights of the Realm        1/1/2
Dwarf Warriors                 1/2/2
Glade Guards                   2/3/3
Wood Elf Archers              5/5/3
Treeman                          2/-/-

GREENSKINS

Goblin Archers                  1/1/1
Goblins                            1/1/0
Spider                             1/1/2
Scorpion                          1/1/2
Goblin Shaman                 1/0/1
Orc Arrers                        1/2/2
Orc Boars                         2/2/3
Orc Boyz                          1/1/0
Orc Big'uns                      2/2/3
Orc Bolt Thrower               1/1/1
Orc Rock Lobber                4/4/3
Orc Shaman                      1/1/0
Troll                                 1/1/0
Goblin Archer w.Fanatic     1/2/2
Goblin w.Fanatic               1/1/2

UNDEAD

Vampire                           4/3/2
Ghouls                             2/2/3
Mummies                         6/4/3
Necromancer                    2/1/0
Scull Catapult                   2/2/2
Skeleton Archers               1/1/1
Skeleton Horsemen           2/2/3
Skeleton Warriors              1/1/0
Black Grail                        8/7/-
Wights                             1/2/2
Wraiths                            3/4/6
Zombies                           1/0/1

I made armybuilds with this and all they work fine... I invite you to try it.SmileyWinkCheesyGrin
The possibility of editing "interesting & workful" Armies increases a 200%.
SmileyWinkCheesyGrin
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 07:58:03 PM by Jeronimo » Logged
alavet
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« Reply #188 on: April 02, 2010, 08:24:52 PM »

-cavalry way way too low, esp comparing to UD, ogres to 2, they're really tough;
dunno why u differ haldebalders/swordmen/greatsword - they're literally the same stats

i udnerstand u gave cavalry & ogres 1 point since they're very costly btu still

-oblins << orc boyz

-thrower to 1/2/1?

-orc lobber worse than mortair despite of range

either ghouls/skeletons too costly. this is a core and they tat bad? also skeleto narchers have same stats as skeltons but u lower them??

wights to , since with BOD they like a stone wall






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« Reply #189 on: April 02, 2010, 08:44:58 PM »

jeronimo is doing his best to destroy the ruleset hoping we'll play his methinks Smiley
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« Reply #190 on: April 02, 2010, 08:51:50 PM »

i have to say i felt 5k/15 was a relatively well balanced ruleset
this has more the feel of a new one that a few balancing suggestions
any such drastic changes i am certainly firmly against

i aint sayn what your doing wont work jeronimo in it its own way but its not 5k-15 when its so drasticly changed
then id rather keep the classical 5k-15 and change nothing than change this much
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« Reply #191 on: April 02, 2010, 09:51:18 PM »

-cavalry way way too low, esp comparing to UD, ogres to 2, they're really tough;
dunno why u differ haldebalders/swordmen/greatsword - they're literally the same stats

i udnerstand u gave cavalry & ogres 1 point since they're very costly btu still

-oblins << orc boyz

-thrower to 1/2/1?

-orc lobber worse than mortair despite of range

either ghouls/skeletons too costly. this is a core and they tat bad? also skeleto narchers have same stats as skeltons but u lower them??

wights to , since with BOD they like a stone wall

Goblins are weaker than orc boyz, thats why they cost 270 (20 units) in comparison with 360 (16 units) of orc boyz. So, they are already balanced (considering stats), same pointing.

Consider their Natural gold cost. What we can do is giving Orc boyz 1/1/1 (360gc) and Mercenary Infantry 1/1/1 too (435 gc, these guys have just +1stat and cost more).

Wights with BoD would be 1300gc and 3 points, that although is a "wall" still loses against 1 flagellant. Not to mention how they suck vs Big uns...

Bolt Thrower to 1/2/1 ok nice. Mortar keeps 4/4/3, however Lobber becomes 4/3/4.

Skeleton<>Goblins : Same stats, but with Skeleton Flag and lower amount of units make them have the worst price of DO.   270/300 (goblins)    450/540 (skellies, super wrong)

Skeleton Flag counters the "cause fear" bonus they have, without mentioning that BS of Skellies archers is 2, when goblins archers have 3...

Humans fast regiments:
if Ogres and cavalries arent "cheap point", you will end buying elf glade runners again to support (2/3/3 and only 525gc).
KotR= 1350gc x 2 point= 2700, are 2 knights better than a Treeman cost 2 and 2700 gc?

At least I consider that Mercenary cavalry has +1 Initiative, so 1/2/2.
Ogres are similar to a Knights of Realm in performance, thats why both are 1/1/2, I still would bet for Knights better, but ogres x2 you spend 2400 and have 300gc free to use.

Also notice how Wizards cost less points if you mass them, its a kind of bad armybuild to have 3+ Wizards in same army... At least you can consider now, doing some weird combos with staff of osiris.

i have to say i felt 5k/15 was a relatively well balanced ruleset
this has more the feel of a new one that a few balancing suggestions
any such drastic changes i am certainly firmly against

i aint sayn what your doing wont work jeronimo in it its own way but its not 5k-15 when its so drasticly changed
then id rather keep the classical 5k-15 and change nothing than change this much

Sorry, I didnt feel it that way. Keeps the heart of 5k/15, max 3 regiments determined with points... although it needed many tweaks, not only to fix some imba armybuilds, also to allow those "never buy this" regiments.

jeronimo is doing his best to destroy the ruleset hoping we'll play his methinks Smiley

The problem always seem to be "ohh no! Jeronimo comes again to change everything".
But, instead of making the "parrot posts" where I write, write, write, I prefer to show the tables which is faster and you can get the General Idea of how all mechanics work (relations between themselves).


Im here to listen and answer any commentary.

Improving a Ruleset is work that can take ages... I just did a big jump to future.
Im not really afraid of getting deeper into structure, the goal system is what matters.
Didnt do this super-tweak for me, actually is for everyone (otherwise wouldnt have bothered and keep at my house with my FO...)
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 09:58:25 PM by Jeronimo » Logged
Grend
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« Reply #192 on: April 02, 2010, 10:48:26 PM »

Why not simply call this for 5k\15 Neo instead of ruining 5k\15?
That way people can vote to play it in the next tournament, or if they prefer they can vote for the 5\15 ruleset.
5\15 is probably the most balanced rulesets so far, and I feel that it is past the point where major changes should be done, and only small adjustments are needed.
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« Reply #193 on: April 02, 2010, 10:55:21 PM »

I feel that this thread has been derailed a bit.

Should we split off the posts on this latest discussion into a new thread/rule set, and if so, what should the rule set be called?
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Jeronimo
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« Reply #194 on: April 02, 2010, 11:22:29 PM »

Why not simply call this for 5k\15 Neo instead of ruining 5k\15?
That way people can vote to play it in the next tournament, or if they prefer they can vote for the 5\15 ruleset.
5\15 is probably the most balanced rulesets so far, and I feel that it is past the point where major changes should be done, and only small adjustments are needed.

Im not ruining 5k/15 Grend. I did a big suggestion for Structure/Items.
@Mika: No thanks, new Ruleset is not what I have in mind these days.
The stupid name I chose, is for comparing with the one existing in Wiki.
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