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Ghabry
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« on: November 28, 2009, 10:51:10 PM »


Alavet found out short time before Nov 09 Tournament that Osiris has still one Point.
Some player agreed to not use it because of it's imbaness.

We should discuss new point costs for it.
I'm not sure. It's worth in a range from 3-5.

Your opinion?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 10:00:36 PM by Ghabry » Logged

Wkurwiony
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« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2009, 11:31:56 PM »

yeah sure i think 3 points is good for osiris,
and btw pls recheck points in undeads because they are very weak in 3k, not much you can think of with them... did any UD army won in this tourney at all ?

i think skeleton warriors should be 2/1/2 at least like in 5k

wraiths is very weak regiment and i dont know why they are like 6 points in 3k ? and 5 points in 5k ? cmon they are 2-3 and even with 2 points i dont know if i would take them they cost half the gold in 3k.. and they can even run when fighting regiments face to face

skeleton horsemen 3/3/4 imo 3/2/3 would be better

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alavet
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« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2009, 11:00:19 AM »

proposed changes:

empire:
1) Empire cavalry all to 3/2/3 from current 3/3/3
2) wood elf archers to 4 as minimum. maybe to 5

gs:
1) arrer boys to 2/2/3
2) bolt thrower to 1/2/2
3) spider to 1/2/2 as a scrop


ud:
1) screaming scul lto 2/2/2
2) horsemen to 3/2/3
3) skeletons to 2/1/2
4) zombies to 1/0/1
5) wraights to 5/5/5/ (hovewer i think i n5/15/ they should remain as 6, they're good if there is a lot of troops placed, whish is not the case about 3/10)

items:
1) well, osiris for 3 maybe too much... i think its either 3 or 2, definitely not 4 or 5
2) skrabash to 2? how do you guys think?
3)
Strength Potion
Enchanted Shield
Dragon Helm to 1/0/1 as well
4) horn to 7



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Cirroz
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« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2009, 01:09:19 PM »

Thought to create a topic, but then decided to post it here... Yesterday was my first tournament where i've met the 3000/10 system... I'm not the best DO player, nor do I pretend. Everything that will be posted would be pure logical, not based on my personal exp. Ok here we go.

First of all lets talk about balance. The ideal balanced game is chess. We have equal number of pawns, bishops, etc. So both sides have absolutely equal chances to win, 'cause no one has advantage in number or strength of figures (the same logic were used in Warcraft 1,2. Remember? Ogre=Knight, Footmen=grunt). So as we see the point of any balance is to create equality of forces (in total strenght). We see here different units. Lots of them. First step of balance was created by... hmmm whoever created unit prices in edit army list. And they DID IT GOOD. Prices creates their own restrictions in armies. Want a proof? Ok. Lets take a look at the 3000/10 ruleset. Emperial knights. We will take the 1st regiment for 3 points, second for 3 points, third becomes more expencive and costs 4 points... Oops! We can't take 3 regiments of knights 'cause they cost 1350gc each and after buying 2 of them we have... 300gc. Any quastions? Yeah I know, now you will say something like "Hey but it WORKS in 5000/15 ruleset!" So NOW we've came to the point! Every ruleset should be judged independably! What works in 9000/30 creates disbalance in 3000/10 and vice versus(i'm not talking about the KotR, this msg are not about them), etc. What for have i posted that?
   Undead armies are disbalanced!
  The first thing about ruleset balance is that armies with equal wealth (3000gc) and unit points (10) should be equal in strength. So if 2 players of the same skill will edit armies according to the ruleset, they should win\loose abt. 50% of games each. Theoreticaly. So, if we take 4 example Treeman. 3p... Okey, then if the whole system is balanced then 1 treeman can stand against:skeleton horsemen,  troll and orc boyz,  mercenary swordsmen with banner of defiance , etc. (all passible combinations of 3p) So theoreticaly he will crush them in about 50% of battles and in about 50% he will die slowly and painfully Smiley Now lets take a look at the BGK. 10p (and don't forget that they cost about half your gcs) . An army. Somene told me that they can defeat an army by themselves. Sireously? 1 regiment of lvl1 BGK with 2 armour points can defeat a whole 10p army with magic items? Don't forget that if we pick BGK we can't make ANY tactical moves at all. Just charge. So as it seems they are just banned. "Oh  we r playing 3000/10 ruleset? Sorry but you can't pick BGKs" Well everyone who REALLY thinks that 1 simple BGK regiment can defeat the whole army can PM me anytime. We'll set a battle: you pick BKG(lvl1, no aditional armour) against my 3000/10 army. I bet that you will loose 95% of battles if not 100%. So what do we have here? BGK in 3000/10 ruleset are not playable. At all. What do I suggest? Change the price to 5-6 p. Wait before you start throwing stones in me. Think about it! You actually CAN create a 5p army that beats 1 reg. of BGK.Ain't that reasonable?
 Next one - Wraith. They are not invalnurable. And, yes, almost any 6p army without magic strikes can make them flee! They are slow, so its not a problem to attack them from rear or behind. Plus don't forget the spirit checks when the regiment are outnumbered or surrounded (or both). They told ya that they had no fear? They lied Wink Btw you can always check this by yourself - take 1 wraith reg. and different combination of troops and protecting magic. See the results? So i suggest to lower the price too. Method is simple - one regiment sould cost as much points as other regiment, or combination of regiments, or regiment + artifact that in summ will give us about 50% of success chances (For example - we have elven archers against skeleton horsemen, lets count that horsemen always defeat archers (its not true but stil), second test we have the same elven archers against 3 packs of zombies (lets also count that they always win, thats an example), so we have 1 win and 1 lose.50\50. Well actually it will be more like 11\10 but its also about 50\50).
 Well thats the theoretical idea of balance. Yes, I know that takes a lot of work. Yes, I know if majority likes to play without BGK they will and to hell all the thin balance ("Why should we think how our army will counter wraiths? Lets just make ureasonable to buy them!"). So... any thoughts?

P.S. Yes, BGK are the most powerfull cavalry in the game. But Empire army has most powerfull set of archers. And nobody tried to make them worth 6p.
P.S. Alavet, elven archers are NOT worth 5 points Wink Yesterday i fought against 2 elven archers, 1 crossbowmen, ice mage and 1 great swords (?). Almost won though...  They are not that powerfull
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 01:40:52 PM by Cirroz » Logged
alavet
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« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2009, 03:44:50 PM »

so big wall of text.

1) original DarkOmen prices not balanced to strenght.
see flagellants, osiris, BOW, bgk, any not lvl1 regiment, etc.
thats why we're using point system.
and we're trying our best to make a good balanced ruleset, but it still doesnt mean that any 3k army vs other 3k army in match of the same skill will cause 50% probability of winning. not at all - some armies are good agaisnt some others.

so in tournaments,your main goal is to create as much flexible army as you can to defeat your opponents.

2) regarding prices:
- yes we know treeman cant stand alone. but he cost like 2,7k (or 2,8?) so there is no sense to give him 9 points or 0 you can get only one, and thats bad, - nothign we can do about.
solution might be to change original unit prices, but for some reasons (see other topics, especiially FO discussions) lot of players dont appreciate changing original prices/stats of the units.

another point of "points" system, that you're not alowed to get more than 3 units of the same type. thats made to avoid some "boring" and non flexible armies by itself.

- bgk can really kill like 30-40% of any 3/10 armies (HU or GS ones). yes, he really that good!
he applies terror every round and thats why he is that powerfull. ESPECIALLY agaisnt greenskins, while they dont have any fear immune units at all.
hovewer i agree that changing BGK to 9 will be ok. (but perhars we need to ban skrabash for them in that case). 6 points for BGK will be a disaster.
maybe you still have small experience in multiplayer battles - bgk is REALLY good.

-also wraights for 6 is a good move. agaisnt unexeprienced player (or who is bad in micro) its very powerfull weapon. if you don know that they're killable if attacked from the rear your'e basically lost the game.
as you can see, almost noone uses magic weapons, and not everyone using mages (and i really doubt that mage can kill wraights alone anyway). so the only soution to kill them is to attack them from the rear or get some big crowd to make them flee (as you described). not really easy.
i still not sure if 5 points good for them. i can handle it, not sure for begginers.

-as for elven archers - sure if you place elven +elven+ crossbowmen + 1 meat they're highly possible to lose, cause they're weak in meele (btw, by stats, same as any other standard meele regiment, with greater IN and MS).
but they're very good if they're covered by other units. in some usual game i see my elves killing 20 units as minimum, even at 3/10 battle. not every mortair can maintain that. ALSO! the can move, and attack from the rear if needs or just escape.
another point for them is that even if they retreat, they can get back, and in most games, their retreat usually HELPS to win a game, cause they retreat far away and can shoot 2-3 times before got atatcked again.
anyway, i think 4 is a must, and it was hard to make them 5points in 5/15, but if we assume that they're better than mortair (and they very close) then its ok to make them 5
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 03:50:12 PM by alavet » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2009, 04:22:31 PM »

Black Grail could be 8 pts then they could win or lose more closely

Elven Archers are not worth 5 pts, if they dont have support they are useless, remember they dont have any armor and die fast when in combat or under fire from enemy archers and mages.

True an expirienced player who can place their arrows to inflict max damage and aviod direct combat will make them seem better than they are. In fact a well crossbow regiment can inflict just as much damage as they can hit cavalry and mages with better accuracy than Elves can.

Wraiths are very expensive and very unreliable, they only have LD5 and flee if they dont have support.
Ive used Wraiths alot with my conquest armies and have found them too weak for their gold cost alone.
The best tactics i found was to use 2 wraiths to circle the enemy and attack single regiments with both, then they can quickly route enemies but if they face a strong enemy regiment they will also easily flee. In short they are best at mobbing up.

Mercenary Sword men should be 1/2/1 or maybe even 1/1/2 as they have weaker stats than greatswords and halbardiers who deal extra damage from their weapons. I find them no better than orc boys but maybe over all 1/1/2 will make empire too strong as a race
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 04:59:47 PM by Flak » Logged

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bembelimen
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« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2009, 06:13:29 PM »

Hi

First step of balance was created by... hmmm whoever created unit prices in edit army list. And they DID IT GOOD. Prices creates their own restrictions in armies. Want a proof? Ok. Lets take a look at the 3000/10 ruleset. Emperial knights. We will take the 1st regiment for 3 points, second for 3 points, third becomes more expencive and costs 4 points... Oops! We can't take 3 regiments of knights 'cause they cost 1350gc each and after buying 2 of them we have... 300gc. Any quastions?

I don't get the point...We know, that the gold is sometimes a limit for regiments and for some regiments you cannot buy 3 units, but this makes the points for the first and second not useless? We just didn't make a "-" instead of the 3rd regiment points.
   
So, if we take 4 example Treeman. 3p... Okey, then if the whole system is balanced then 1 treeman can stand against:skeleton horsemen,  troll and orc boyz,  mercenary swordsmen with banner of defiance , etc.

As you said, the gold coins were a limit, so it's not really important how much points a treeman costs.

Well everyone who REALLY thinks that 1 simple BGK regiment can defeat the whole army can PM me anytime. We'll set a battle: you pick BKG(lvl1, no aditional armour) against my 3000/10 army.

You have to see it an other way: Sure, you can prepare an army which can defeat a BGK easily, but can you create an army, which can win a tournament against empire, greenskins and (regular) undeads AND win against a BGK with 5 points and some other units for 5points (=10)? I bet, you will lose nearly 50% of your games against BGK.

Next one - Wraith. [...] Method is simple - one regiment sould cost as much points as other regiment, or combination of regiments, or regiment + artifact that in summ will give us about 50% of success chances [...]

In general a good idea, and in fact the first 3k/10 rules were created like that. But I will give you a small example, why this will not work: Let's say I have Wraiths+Skeleton Archers, how many points would you give each of them? I guess 2/2 or something like that. You have elves archers, I think, they are better than wraiths and better than skeleton archers, so let's give them 3 points. Ok now you will take 2 archers (= 6 points) and I will take 2 wraiths and one skeleton archer (= 6 points too). Who will win? I bet, if you don't play hide&run, then I will win 80% of all games. (attack your archers with wraiths and then shoot them all with my bowies). I hope you see my point. We cannot create the ruleset this way you suggested. Take one regiment and then look, which other regiments are equal. We have to think at all possible combinations. This is same why BGK has 10 points. Yeah, some armybuilds can defeat it and I agree, that the BGK costs a lot of points, but if you will lower the points, you can make new combinations, which will win most of the games (Think at BGK+Banner of Wrath, BGK+meat etc.)

So as result I can say: You don't pay the points for one regiment, you pay the points also for possible combinations, which improves the regiment itself a lot.

I hope you get me correct. This post is not for put you down, it's only as explanation, what we thought, when we made the rules. You have some good idea in it and I also think, that 3k/10 should be improved.

Undead armies are disbalanced!

Yep Smiley
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Cirroz
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« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2009, 06:18:29 PM »

Ehhh... once again its either i'm not saying my thoughts claerly enough or no one wants to read my posts attentive.

Quote
1) original DarkOmen prices not balanced to strenght.
Never said that it is. I said that the first step to balance. Piont system is the second. And yes, it put more balance to the game then prices, but prices also do the job. Remember treeman?

Quote
and we're trying our best to make a good balanced ruleset
nice job so far. Well done! Seriously.

Quote
it still doesnt mean that any 3k army vs other 3k army in match of the same skill will cause 50% probability of winning
never said such thing either. Read it once more:
Quote
if 2 players of the same skill will edit armies according to the ruleset, they should win\loose abt. 50% of games each

This means that 2 players has absolutely identical skills (it can't be in real life, there are no absolutely identical ppl). They pick a race(or if all races are balanced - random race) and create an army.They are using different armies each time (or at least until all possible playable variations are tried). Then they play many times... very many. So after playing about 1000 games the score should be about 500\500. Or something like 468\532. Its about 50% wins\loses.It doesnt mean that before battle starts armies has equal chances. Most of the time one army dominates even b4 the fight starts. And, no, that doesnt mean that army dominated prebattle will always win. Just a better chances to succed - nothing more.



 


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Cirroz
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« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2009, 09:30:14 PM »

Here is some more (hadn't enough time to write it all last time)

Quote
agaisnt unexeprienced player
Quote
i can handle it, not sure for begginers.
Well i don't think that beginners (including me Smiley ) will play better if they play only against\with ghouls\zombies. (Thats only take place in 3000/10 'coz i hadn't tried other rules yet)...How can you learn to deffend against wraiths? Fight them 10 times Smiley Thats MHO. And read the forum Wink Thats not only MO  

Quote
in some usual game i see my elves killing 20 units as minimum
Thats based on personal opinion. Imagine 4 a second that I'm the greatest DO player and my dwarfs(!  Grin) kills 30 untits regulary. Then I should say that they are very powerfull and should cost 5p.?Or if my elves kills 3 units per game I should say that 1p is a fair price 4 them 'cause i want 2 of them to kill 6 units? Wink (don't remember how much gc they cost so nwm, thats an example)

About BGK i'll write in next topic, so ok - maybe 6 points is not fair enough, but at least 8 points they deserve! Not 10.IMHO

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Cirroz
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« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2009, 10:01:22 PM »

Ooook bembelimen Smiley But u can't put me down with ur msg:1) All i'm writing is just a theory 2)I always can post a reply  Grin

Quote
I don't get the point...We know, that the gold is sometimes a limit for regiments and for some regiments you cannot buy 3 units, but this makes the points for the first and second not useless? We just didn't make a "-" instead of the 3rd regiment points.
One or two posts up. I said that prices are just a PART of a balance(maybe lesser). Call that part of my msg "intro to a long monologue"

Quote
As you said, the gold coins were a limit, so it's not really important how much points a treeman costs.
That was an example of how to count the balance system, not how to kill a treeman Smiley Or how much points should it cost. Here it is (2nd post up) You take all existing combinations of 4 points (5,4,9 - nvm. The method 4 a unit is still the same.I know that there is now 9p units): elven archers+ BoD, 2 orc boar boyz, etc. Then u c how ur 4p units is against them. Then comes that 50\50 crap... Damn i start to repeat myself...

Quote
In general a good idea, ........ which will win most of the games (Think at BGK+Banner of Wrath, BGK+meat etc.)
Hm... where did ya get that "Wraiths - 2p"? IMO 4p is enough. And yes I'll try 2 use hide&run 'cause I don't really have an options here. Btw why 2 archers? Why not 2 cannons?And surely I will place them behind the hill to make shure that they cannot shot or see foes.
 Anyway I got your point. Btw wraith + arch aint an ultimate combination. To much other combinations that can beat it easily (at least i think so). And there are a lot of combinations, so how about BGK+Banner of Wrath against 2 Wraiths + arch? (just another example).




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bembelimen
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« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2009, 08:20:43 PM »

2009-12-01: Wood Elf Archers from 3/4/5 to 4/4/5
2009-12-01: Mercenary Cavalry from 3/3/4 to 3/2/3
2009-12-01: Mercenary Swordsmen from 2/2/3 to 1/2/2
2009-12-01: Treeman from 3/4/4 to 0/0/0 (scnr Wink)

2009-12-01: Orc Arrer Boyz from 1/2/3 to 2/2/3
2009-12-01: Gigantic Spider from 1/2/3 to 2/2/3
2009-12-01: Orc Bolt Thrower from 2/3/3 to 1/2/2

2009-12-01: Screaming Skull Catapult from 3/3/4 to 2/2/2
2009-12-01: Skeleton Horsemen from 3/3/4 to 3/2/3
2009-12-01: Skeleton Warriors from 2/2/3 to 2/1/2
2009-12-01: Zombies from 1/1/1 to 1/0/1
2009-12-01: Black Grail from 10/10/10 to 9/-/- (8 looks a little bit less for me, let's finish the discussion first)

2009-12-01: Staff of Osiris from 1 to 3
2009-12-01: Horn of Urgok from 6 to 7
2009-12-01: Skabskrath from 1 to 4 (I think it's nearly as good as horn and better than banner of wrath)

2009-12-01: Added following items to the 1/0/1 Itemlist: Grudgebringer Sword, Runefang, Hellfiresword, Strength Potion, Enchanted Shield, Dragon Helm

Added the swords to the 1/0/1 section, cause "free" is a little bit cheap imho, but it would be ok for me, if you really want it. The Lightning sword was not changed, cause I think 1 point is ok for it.

Feel free to discuss it.
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alavet
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« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2009, 08:42:36 PM »

dont think skrabash deserves 4
i mean, yeah its cool, but not much superior and not warrantied to win much. lok - there is basically no units which can have skrabash with good effect, except horsemen (3 points) and ?skeletons? (but they bad with htem cause they slow). its good for the vampire but 7 for just single vampire with sword its too much.

but if we look for the bow or horn - any regiment can use it and it warrnties to make some effect no matter what.
ive seen skrabash used 4 rounds w/o effect

i vot for 2, maaayyybee for 3 but its little out of line cause its already costs a lot.

why knights of the realm not changed as well? (they actually worse then grub cavalry)
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« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2009, 08:44:54 PM »

Giant spider should stay1-2-2.

And I think skabrath is worse then banner of wrath, 2 reasons:
 I just think it's better
and at 3k your money runs out quite fast especially with undead and it costs twice as much.

I think 2 pts is tops
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« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2009, 08:58:11 PM »

i vot for 2

done

why knights of the realm not changed as well? (they actually worse then grub cavalry)

Cause I forgot it Wink fixed

Giant spider should stay1-2-2.

It is, I swaped the points in the history
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« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2009, 09:05:21 PM »

Quote
2009-12-01: Mercenary Cavalry from 3/3/4 to 3/2/3
Wasn't necessery. After buying 2 of them you have 300gc left. And 5 points. All items for 300gc are 1p. Nothing changes even if "Mercenary Cavalry 3/6/100"
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