[Warhammer Dark Omen Forum]

Warhammer Dark Omen Forum

Here is some more (hadn't enough time to write it all last time)

agaisnt unexeprienced player

i can handle it, not sure for begginers.

Well i don't think that beginners (including me ) will play better if they play only against\with ghouls\zombies. (Thats only take place in 3000/10 'coz i hadn't tried other rules yet)...How can you learn to deffend against wraiths? Fight them 10 times Thats MHO. And read the forum Thats not only MO  

in some usual game i see my elves killing 20 units as minimum

Thats based on personal opinion. Imagine 4 a second that I'm the greatest DO player and my dwarfs(!  ) kills 30 untits regulary. Then I should say that they are very powerfull and should cost 5p.?Or if my elves kills 3 units per game I should say that 1p is a fair price 4 them 'cause i want 2 of them to kill 6 units? (don't remember how much gc they cost so nwm, thats an example)

About BGK i'll write in next topic, so ok - maybe 6 points is not fair enough, but at least 8 points they deserve! Not 10.IMHO

Ehhh... once again its either i'm not saying my thoughts claerly enough or no one wants to read my posts attentive.

1) original DarkOmen prices not balanced to strenght.

Never said that it is. I said that the first step to balance. Piont system is the second. And yes, it put more balance to the game then prices, but prices also do the job. Remember treeman?

and we're trying our best to make a good balanced ruleset

nice job so far. Well done! Seriously.

it still doesnt mean that any 3k army vs other 3k army in match of the same skill will cause 50% probability of winning

never said such thing either. Read it once more:

if 2 players of the same skill will edit armies according to the ruleset, they should win\loose abt. 50% of games each

This means that 2 players has absolutely identical skills (it can't be in real life, there are no absolutely identical ppl). They pick a race(or if all races are balanced - random race) and create an army.They are using different armies each time (or at least until all possible playable variations are tried). Then they play many times... very many. So after playing about 1000 games the score should be about 500\500. Or something like 468\532. Its about 50% wins\loses.It doesnt mean that before battle starts armies has equal chances. Most of the time one army dominates even b4 the fight starts. And, no, that doesnt mean that army dominated prebattle will always win. Just a better chances to succed - nothing more.



 

i had 4 ud tropps vs lone necromancer

Flawless viktory hehe
Well that depend on honesty of the player. If he wanted a challenge of his skills or just a viktory (Pirrhic victory i must add). The same goes to rulesets. Situation:
You decided to play 3000/10 ruleset. Your oponent creates an army using 9000/10. Extra gold he spends to buy high level units and give them extra armour. You never know what hit ya. No way to check it.
So here comes the same statement - how honestly your oponent want to play.

Thought to create a topic, but then decided to post it here... Yesterday was my first tournament where i've met the 3000/10 system... I'm not the best DO player, nor do I pretend. Everything that will be posted would be pure logical, not based on my personal exp. Ok here we go.

First of all lets talk about balance. The ideal balanced game is chess. We have equal number of pawns, bishops, etc. So both sides have absolutely equal chances to win, 'cause no one has advantage in number or strength of figures (the same logic were used in Warcraft 1,2. Remember? Ogre=Knight, Footmen=grunt). So as we see the point of any balance is to create equality of forces (in total strenght). We see here different units. Lots of them. First step of balance was created by... hmmm whoever created unit prices in edit army list. And they DID IT GOOD. Prices creates their own restrictions in armies. Want a proof? Ok. Lets take a look at the 3000/10 ruleset. Emperial knights. We will take the 1st regiment for 3 points, second for 3 points, third becomes more expencive and costs 4 points... Oops! We can't take 3 regiments of knights 'cause they cost 1350gc each and after buying 2 of them we have... 300gc. Any quastions? Yeah I know, now you will say something like "Hey but it WORKS in 5000/15 ruleset!" So NOW we've came to the point! Every ruleset should be judged independably! What works in 9000/30 creates disbalance in 3000/10 and vice versus(i'm not talking about the KotR, this msg are not about them), etc. What for have i posted that?
   Undead armies are disbalanced!
  The first thing about ruleset balance is that armies with equal wealth (3000gc) and unit points (10) should be equal in strength. So if 2 players of the same skill will edit armies according to the ruleset, they should win\loose abt. 50% of games each. Theoreticaly. So, if we take 4 example Treeman. 3p... Okey, then if the whole system is balanced then 1 treeman can stand against:skeleton horsemen,  troll and orc boyz,  mercenary swordsmen with banner of defiance , etc. (all passible combinations of 3p) So theoreticaly he will crush them in about 50% of battles and in about 50% he will die slowly and painfully Now lets take a look at the BGK. 10p (and don't forget that they cost about half your gcs) . An army. Somene told me that they can defeat an army by themselves. Sireously? 1 regiment of lvl1 BGK with 2 armour points can defeat a whole 10p army with magic items? Don't forget that if we pick BGK we can't make ANY tactical moves at all. Just charge. So as it seems they are just banned. "Oh  we r playing 3000/10 ruleset? Sorry but you can't pick BGKs" Well everyone who REALLY thinks that 1 simple BGK regiment can defeat the whole army can PM me anytime. We'll set a battle: you pick BKG(lvl1, no aditional armour) against my 3000/10 army. I bet that you will loose 95% of battles if not 100%. So what do we have here? BGK in 3000/10 ruleset are not playable. At all. What do I suggest? Change the price to 5-6 p. Wait before you start throwing stones in me. Think about it! You actually CAN create a 5p army that beats 1 reg. of BGK.Ain't that reasonable?
 Next one - Wraith. They are not invalnurable. And, yes, almost any 6p army without magic strikes can make them flee! They are slow, so its not a problem to attack them from rear or behind. Plus don't forget the spirit checks when the regiment are outnumbered or surrounded (or both). They told ya that they had no fear? They lied Btw you can always check this by yourself - take 1 wraith reg. and different combination of troops and protecting magic. See the results? So i suggest to lower the price too. Method is simple - one regiment sould cost as much points as other regiment, or combination of regiments, or regiment + artifact that in summ will give us about 50% of success chances (For example - we have elven archers against skeleton horsemen, lets count that horsemen always defeat archers (its not true but stil), second test we have the same elven archers against 3 packs of zombies (lets also count that they always win, thats an example), so we have 1 win and 1 lose.50\50. Well actually it will be more like 11\10 but its also about 50\50).
 Well thats the theoretical idea of balance. Yes, I know that takes a lot of work. Yes, I know if majority likes to play without BGK they will and to hell all the thin balance ("Why should we think how our army will counter wraiths? Lets just make ureasonable to buy them!"). So... any thoughts?

P.S. Yes, BGK are the most powerfull cavalry in the game. But Empire army has most powerfull set of archers. And nobody tried to make them worth 6p.
P.S. Alavet, elven archers are NOT worth 5 points Yesterday i fought against 2 elven archers, 1 crossbowmen, ice mage and 1 great swords (?). Almost won though...  They are not that powerfull

Time to post "IMO"

I really dont see a point of this discussion... From one side i see players who want to cancel "mage hit and run" restriction and made some other penalties. That makes some sence. From the other side - players who... misreaded "how to act" topic? Well it goes like this:
"Don't play lame. That means, don't play run&hide&teleport games with your last regiment, if your opponent defeats all other units and is clearly better."
  IMO that means if u r standing against half an army with ur single mage - no doubt, u lost. Yes, u can teleport\hit\teleport but thats rediculous - YOU ARE CLEARLY LOST IT TACTICALY. So there is nothing wrong to send ur mage in a suicidal attack in that case. And if ur last standing man is a mage and ur oponent has 1 regiment of mumies or any other 1-2 regiments why should u give up? Teleport is a mage strong point and u should use it! Its as rediculous as a rule that archers can't shoot and cavalry can't charge...
  Besides:
- The game balance made mages the primary target. You can't eliminate them early? Time to pay. Don't tell me its impossible.
- There are lots of ways to counter lonely mage with teleport (banner, shield, ur mage at last). Can't keep your archers with spell eater shild (or something like that) to the finale fase of the battle? Well thats a tactical disadvantage of the strategy don't ya think?
- Player who takes a mage (and hopes to make a hit&run tactic at the end) gambles! The teleport is NOT the obviously part of mage's (esp.lvl1) magic book.
  The same i think goes to pistoliers... So i think the rule says fair and clearly - you totaly crushed opponent's army - you won the battle.
 P.S. Oh and don't forget that u can spend 30 seconds to discuss mage behaviour b4 the battle.

Thanx 4 your attention. Good evening.  

Gr8t man Ghabry said i still have a time 2 join in... hope its not too late to sign in  And, yes, i confirm