August 14, 2018, 11:18:01 AM

Username
Password

Pages: [1]   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Inspiration. How about making SC2 Dark-Omen ? Mika & Grend & other modders!  (Read 6212 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
alavet
Orc Shaman
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1004



View Profile
« on: June 07, 2010, 07:37:19 AM »

Hey, i know you're working hard on Wartbed and you made lots of work already. I know that you're using Myth engine/mechanics to work with.

But just minute ago i figured that it possibly could be worked out by other way; why not to use the latest editor with already well based physics & models possibilities, as well as thousand of superiror scripts and hundreds of other posisiblities im not aware of? I'm talking about Starcraft2 Map Editor.


The only problem is to implement Warhammer rules there (dice rolls) since Starcraft is an instant damage and there is no misses at all, as well as implement unit stats. Its a very big problem and big job, but since it have thousands of implemented features * posisbilities i think it could be betetr for the game. See DoTA success, from standard WC3 Map Eitor, and SC Editor is WAY better. You can totally change of the interface & some mechanics of the game ciomparing to SC2

Update: dice rolls could be somehow converted to % of miss chances, and we all know that WC3 have "miss chance" working perfectly well. Stats its a diffirient story, but jsut like as WC3 Starcraft2 will support heroes and WC3 heroes had soem stats. Morale and flank atatcks its another story to implement, also canon ball projective not easy to implement (cause if it fires on logner distance, you actually can shoot over your regiment just NEAR the canon; it depends of the landscape though). But all of this its a very intresting job of finds of uncommon and genious solutions for modders.

Just to introduce some amazing features (u possibly already know it) there is a link for a UMS (customs scenario maps) of SC2 maps currently.

www.sc2mapster.com ; here you could see some videos or BETTER play some brand new scenarions yourself to see how deep you can change the game (and we're only discovering al lfunctionality of SC2 editor)


Also i could be wrong actually, and maybe its too difficuilt to re-made Dark Omen to SC2 module but please consider it as a variant, i believe it could save tonns of work for WARTBED (including script language, map editor). The only problem i see its solution how to make it a campaing, but we could just focus on the multiplayer aspects more


now there is a few "+" for that idea, just not allowing you to refuse this idea instantly:
- full 3d model support
- superior map design tools (hovewer it should be checked if its possible to use hills and hollows)
- awesome script possiiblities
- good & open modified pathfinding.
- actually air units (if you ever would want it)
- good design tools, as spells possibilities, etc.
- possibility for make cinematic scenes and allowing to record battles from the first view (battle results window should be corrected though)
- SUPERIOR possibility to promote Dark Omen over millions of people
- you could make some short version of DO just to attract that millions of people to this site. this could make you some profit actually (if you place some 1 small banner and there will be lots of people. you SHOULD consider it)
- blizzard said they're reviewing possibilities for selling maps and paying some fee to the authros, if maps get wide played



HOW WE CAN USE IT:

Currently beta stage is getting closed for several weeks. Hovewer Blizzard announced they allow players to use their SC2 edior freely. And after editing you can test your map offline easilly.

Im not quite sure how you can download SC2 editor if you not involved in beta. But for this project i can share my account and advice how to get SC2 Editor at your computer & Mika also now have a SC2 Beta account.

I know Grend also have account, Nitrox has account too and i believe he can share it too  with olly/Gharby/Darkmancer/Flak if they will show interest. I think we could put out some more beta-keys, if need (ask me or just right there).

so guys, consider it.
its a big chance for you and lots of hopes for us.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2010, 07:55:18 AM by alavet » Logged

Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
alavet
Orc Shaman
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1004



View Profile
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2010, 07:57:28 AM »

current list of problems i personally find not easy to fix via Sc2 Mape Editor (even though im absolutely have no clue about it, just common sense of the game SC2 and WC3). But i believe it could be done!


- landscape mechanics - uphill /lowhill ? no info
- morale checks. calculation of morale is a questions
result of morale lose could be solved, Examples at Dota/Hon where you cant controll your hero. HoN example:Mmaiken ultimate. (sorry for you unfamiliar with HoN (Heroes of the Newerth)
- round based system. partly could be solved with number/speed of attacks, just like at DO
- archers & artillery: miss chance: partly could be sovled with miss chance, another way to make units shoot non targeted projectives. Examples: Devouer hook from WC3 Dota.
question for landscape mechanics
- banners for users & a better interface. you could change interface, including atatck/move controls. Examples: SC2mapster maps. Hard job: to make banners of the units be visible all of the time, even if you dont see regiment.
- regiment with hero: no idea if you can make a regiment with diffirient stats for diffirient members. but it possibly could be done.
- mana pool. not a problem at all. random generator every 20 seconds.
- items: i havent seen items at SC2 yet, i see Dota game at the game lsit so i think its already solved, examples: WC3
- charge effects: it will be harder, no idea hwo to fix yet.
- making armies. its sovled, example: Unit Tester maop fro mSc2 mapster, pretty simpel itnerface for buing units pre-game. could be improved for sure.
- saving armies after battle. pretty hard job, no idea yet. if get solved, open ups solo campaings
- scaling up the view; zoom in, zoom out. already solved, example: BattleCraft Sc2 map.
- changing controls for the units/ interface. could be chanegd at SC2 main option partly. not a big issue

thats all problems fro mthe top of my head.

another big problem is that SC2 will cost liek 60$. its not an issue for me cause i gonan buy this game anyway, but could be hard for you. It willn't stop true fans i believe. And we'll get thousands of fans inside SC2 over the continents.

and another huge issue is a cross continent play. i just thought about it and its really big pain in the ass. i didnt even want to post there to not ruin all enthusiasm, but i need to be objective

possible solutions: currently biggest SC2 community TeamLiquid, harddly pressuring Blizzard to allow cross continent play. Not sure if they will succes in that.
 another solution i believe there will be tonns of cracked games over there. there is currently cracked version already and i believe there will other in future, cause game price is rather high.

if we cant overcome this, we could miss some members from non-europe. but there is a thousands of people at SC2 potentially interested in new good UMS scenario, so it willn't be too Huge loss.




« Last Edit: June 07, 2010, 08:17:51 AM by alavet » Logged

Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
olly
Global Spokesperson
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1870



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2010, 09:19:42 PM »

Cool,

Smiley
Logged

and back in Nuln, the ageing Graf Berhardt smiled his secret smile of pride whenever he heard the latest tales of his eldest son's ever growing chain of glorious victories -(sothr manual)
Grend
2D Sprite Artist
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 257



View Profile
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2010, 10:19:37 PM »

It is a great idea, but there are a few snags:

a) It would need a huge team of talented modellers and animators. Currently this community has none.
b) Currently any map that is to be played over battle.net cannot be more than 10 megabyte. A few models alone will be more than that, so it is technically impossible at the moment.
c) Copyright issues. GW does not take kindly to people using copyrighted material as far as I know.

Quote
- good & open modified pathfinding.
Really Alavet? More like big ball pathfinding

It may be possible in the future, and it could be cool, but it just does not seem feasible.  Sad
Logged

On vacation
Darkmancer
Administrator
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 406



View Profile
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2010, 11:31:48 PM »

I'm dubious I think there's simply too many mechanics missing from SC2, you'd need access to the source code to implement.

I think you co9uld easily create a fantasy mod for SC2, even with Warhammer style units and heros, but it will simply not play anything like DO/Warhammer TT, It'll be more like well Warcraft (ironically based on Warhammer).

To have a DO mod you need an engine capable of the basic building blocks of Warhammer, formations, morale, etc.  Something like the Total War Series.

On a side note,
You'd never be able to sell the maps, Games Workshop may tolerate mods (or not in some cases), any sniff of earning ££ from them and you'd be shuttdown imediatly, Blizzard will be legally obliqed to do so.

Even advertising on this site could be a tricky issue, WarhammerAlliance got a lawsuit for the same thing, whilst i'm fairly sure the lawsuit vs dark-omen.org would fail i doubt Bembelimen would be willing to risk fighting it.  He could get away with using advertising to maintain the site, but not make money out of it.

Logged

Cry woe, destruction, ruin, and decay:
The worst is death, and death will have his day.

[23:04:33] <*Ghabry> The internal design of Darkmancer is just strange
CidHalsey
Campaign Creator
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 72


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2010, 06:31:34 AM »

Hmm. Forced to agree with the negativity here chaps.

GW really DOES NOT LIKE, anyone doing anything adventerous with it's stuff. We are small, quiet, and don't sell or tread on their toes. Moneymaking or franchise stealing will get us a small army of angry GW laywers.

And as cool as starcraft 2 may or may not be, (Although I've obessessed about it for years, it has some rather strong mental connetations recently with a guy who stole something very dear to me, so I am quiet put off it) that coolness does not nessicarly mean it should be applied to everything else cool.

Let SC2 be SC2, mod it to be something related perhaps. But taking a giant real time Sci-Fi engine, and trying to turn it into a ye oldie dice based table top game just seems unnessicarily crazy.  (And it really wouldn't have anything to do with DO, let's face it, it'd just be an attempt to make a warhammer mod.)
Logged
alavet
Orc Shaman
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1004



View Profile
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2010, 07:17:53 AM »

ok i gonna defend my position abit, i dont give up so early

Grend:
Quote
It is a great idea, but there are a few snags:
a) It would need a huge team of talented modellers and animators. Currently this community has none.
well its definitely a problem. i believe itlerion will work on it if need & with enthusiam already putted into the job, i think olyl can do soem models too. animatiomn is a diffirient think i guess, but im not an expert in that. maybe its really too much, who can advice about that?

Quote
b) Currently any map that is to be played over battle.net cannot be more than 10 megabyte. A few models alone will be more than that, so it is technically impossible at the moment.
as you probably know TL + ma maker sites pushing Blizz  hard to icnrease map size. I belive they just revealed Editor for the test purposes and it will be icnreased a lot. We can use Low quality models also, which could save up work and size both at first. im pretty sure Blizz realize 10mb not enough for any semi-serious project with SC2 Editor, so i sure size of the map willn't be any issue at all.

Quote
c) Copyright issues. GW does not take kindly to people using copyrighted material as far as I know.
i fairly sure GW is OK with customs made maps, whether its WC3 (which for sure should have lots of work) or Total War model project (olly could possibly reveal info about it). I think its very logical they allow any custom uses unless its a separate game (which Wartbed actually bothers much more, as it sems to be a separate game).

and if even they didnt allow it, why cant you make new "DoTA" with "new" world? for that we/i can participate, with new ideas for models and names for races, etc..
i fairly sure they dont have copyright on ORCS or KNIGHTS, unless its very specific models. Copyrights shoudl to to Tolkien or some1 in that case i guess. We can see ORCS in tonns of the game. Squggz and other new races its a diffirient story, but "standard" races as Empire, GS & necromancer could be recreated easilly i guess.

after all, come on, its just a custom map, who gives a fck?

Quote
- good & open modified pathfinding.
Really Alavet? More like big ball pathfinding

It may be possible in the future, and it could be cool, but it just does not seem feasible.  

well, i just meant its better than DO or Warhammer 40k Soulstorm or Age of Empries (latest games i played Cheesy). Unit follow your command and do excactly what u ordered for them, without lag. they gt clumped, that fact, but i think its OK for DO? formation is a diffirient story, but i will rasie it at next post.


DARKMANCER

Quote
I'm dubious I think there's simply too many mechanics missing from SC2, you'd need access to the source code to implement.

I think you co9uld easily create a fantasy mod for SC2, even with Warhammer style units and heros, but it will simply not play anything like DO/Warhammer TT, It'll be more like well Warcraft (ironically based on Warhammer).

To have a DO mod you need an engine capable of the basic building blocks of Warhammer, formations, morale, etc.  Something like the Total War Series.
lets look at the problems more closely, and decide if we can actuallly overcome it? i meaa, i tried to compose main conflict points with warhammer comparing to SC2 curent engine at post below (and wil lsumamrize it in next post). hovewer if you visited site from my topic post, this engine is VERY powerfull and POSSIBLY could have solutions for the most parts.
if oyu add it to my post we can discuss/ ask SC2 mapers if its sovlable and see what happens.

Quote
On a side note,
You'd never be able to sell the maps, Games Workshop may tolerate mods (or not in some cases), any sniff of earning ££ from them and you'd be shuttdown imediatly, Blizzard will be legally obliqed to do so.

Even advertising on this site could be a tricky issue, WarhammerAlliance got a lawsuit for the same thing, whilst i'm fairly sure the lawsuit vs dark-omen.org would fail i doubt Bembelimen would be willing to risk fighting it.  He could get away with using advertising to maintain the site, but not make money out of it.

well yes, currently we have no idea if it will be possible to sell maps at all and on which absis. it was more liek advertisment point, well its cause if even map cost 10$ and author get 5$ then he will get 5k $ after it get sold 1000 times (which will take at last 1-2 years before it get really popularized if ever). its just a small point like a "bonus"..

as for advertisment, i dont mean advertise THIS site DIRECTLY, i mean advertise ON this site. if map get lots of peopel you can just put a link to the loading screen and thats actually could be enough.

as for avoiding copyrights see my response for Grend.


All in all, i cant force you to start make this at SC2 anything. I just think it will be superior way of reborn or populate WH Classic game... Imagine if you map get topped the list and became a legend, just like as DoTA or at least get new auditory for thousand of people (no doubt auditory of SC2 will be no less than 5 millions worldwide as minimum). it could be the same with Wartbed but without auditory it will take so much longer..

sadly enough, i'm too lazy and dont have much enhusiasm for such (huge) job, but just giving out and idea...

« Last Edit: June 08, 2010, 07:24:23 AM by alavet » Logged

Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
alavet
Orc Shaman
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1004



View Profile
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2010, 07:40:39 AM »

some new points i made bold,

for the list of possible problem if we try to port DO to SC2

i just post list again, to save everythign at one place.

 solvable problems i made standard colour, questionable is green and serious problem is red (as i think if its serious. mayeb it could be done easilly)


- landscape mechanics - uphill /lowhill ? no info
- morale checks. calculation of morale is a question, result of morale lose could be solved, Examples at Dota/Hon where you cant controll your hero. HoN example:Mmaiken ultimate. (sorry for you unfamiliar with HoN (Heroes of the Newerth) - round based system. partly could be solved with number/speed of attacks, just like at DO
- archers & artillery: miss chance: partly could be sovled with miss chance, another way to make units shoot non targeted projectives. Examples: Devouer hook from WC3 Dota.
question for landscape mechanics for artillery shots
- banners for users & a better interface. you could change interface, including atatck/move controls. Examples: SC2mapster maps. Hard job: to make banners of the units be visible all of the time, even if you dont see regiment.
- regiment with hero: no idea if you can make a regiment with diffirient stats for diffirient members. but it possibly could be done.
- mana pool. not a problem at all. random generator every 20 seconds.
- items: i havent seen items at SC2 yet, i see Dota game at the game lsit so i think its already solved, examples: WC3
- charge effects: it will be harder, no idea how to fix yet.
- making armies. its sovled, example: Unit Tester maop fro mSc2 mapster, pretty simple itnerface for buing units pre-game. could be improved for sure.
- saving armies after battle. pretty hard job, no idea yet. if get solved, open ups solo campaings
- scaling up the view; zoom in, zoom out. already solved, example: BattleCraft Sc2 map.
- changing controls for the units/ interface. could be chanegd at SC2 main option partly. not a big issue

new:
- unit formations: row numbers & effect of it, square formations, etc.
- different speed on different terran. i think it solvable.


Logged

Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
Mikademus
Developer
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 546



View Profile
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2010, 12:08:04 PM »

Wow, huge wall of posts! Will go through them, but I'll just throw down some immediate thoughts:

First, I agree that SC2 might be a nice framework to implement a remake in because we're given many tools which would be extremely convenient. One reason I don't like the pure modding path, though, is that people need to actually purchase an unrelated game (SC2) to play the remake.

The commercial point aside, what I suspect will be a huge problem is that at least as of now SC2 doesn't allow user-contributed resources (models and graphics), which might change soon of course, and also isn't intended for regimental formations - I fear these might be very difficult to implement. Also, though it isn't really apparent, SC2 actually doesn't feature very many units at the same time: even if both sides were to be capped out at 200/200 with only zerglings you'd only have some 400 units at the same time. A large DO battle, especially with more than two players at the same time, might easily have 1000 to perhaps even 1500 units (thinking of regiments with 20 to 30 units), and all these would have to be moved in formation by script code rather than SC2 internal code, which could make it extremely slow.

Nonetheless, if someone would like to try making a DO-like prototype in SC2 I'd be happy to give any assistance I can as well as to share any resources and code that might be useful. Smiley
Logged


alavet
Orc Shaman
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1004



View Profile
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2010, 12:23:51 PM »

Hey Mika, i just thought u will try to make soemthing with SC2 by yourself, cause thre is ery few members enthuasiastc about remake at all Cheesy

regiment formation is a pain i believe, but maybe solvalbe? no idea yet.

as for 200/200 limits its only for singleplayer. at customs map you can have infinate amount of units (assuming your PC can handle it). with not sueprior graphic models mayeb it could be done.

but frankly speaking u rised up a tough question cause perfomance at 200/200 mass battle could be laggy, esp at one screen. its really an issue... hm Sad

but dont give up so early ir. what if you make and try? or soem1 else?

i guess im going to post link and this thread to sc2mapster and see what these gusy thinks about it... maybe some of the fans coudl join us or work out out some beta to inspire you guys and you wil lhelp futher...

Logged

Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
lordbraprus
Crossbowman
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 713


wiiiii


View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2010, 12:00:32 AM »

i say, lets wait for OMG wartbed, and lets do all mods we want without using gmeworkshop stuff, material or anything that belongsto them.

there we can a cute SC2 mod and make it  a game, like counter strike, it was a mod that become a game, so alavet will be happy with other SC fans.

patience is goooood
Logged

ito maquiesves
Mikademus
Developer
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 546



View Profile
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2010, 12:22:29 AM »

I think there is nothing wrong with several projects running at the same time. Wartbed is a huge undertaking and will take time but will also be tailored to RTT needs, while SC2 can probably spit out something faster but that will ultimately probably not be able to deliver the perfect feel. There is not a conflict between simultaneous projects, and any resources could and should be shared between all of these, so go for it! Smiley As I said, I will assist as well as I can! Cool
Logged


Pages: [1]   Go Up
Print
Jump to: