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Author Topic: What matchup are the best, and what race is the strogest at DO?  (Read 4950 times)
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alavet
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« on: June 01, 2010, 06:49:25 AM »

// is there any poll avaliable?

Anyway, up to topic. I was suprised when Flak mentioned that he usually seems his GS army as a strongest. Maybe that was cause he think he construct other armies worse (lol). but apart from joking, what are the reasosn to think GS is the strongest army?

Put your opinion there (with reasoning). Keep in mind rulesets, i think we better talk about overall unti strenght & race perks, hovewer when im talking about "good" or "bad" i sitll keep in mind our standard point ruleset 5/15-9/30 rulesets and partly FO (cause it's rather close in balance, at least most units feels the same)

And then we can discuss matchups

I think the most powerfull race is an Empire, since it provide a huge flexibility for either Archers or good meele units + awesome magic. They little lack in meele, but with decent micro and in most cases they can handle just enough to use their defensive arcenal.
my rating would be 10/10

Very close to Empire is a UD army. Sure enough, they totally meele oriented, but they have really good meele units, especially with their "cause fear" effect. At some maps they will be screwed by enemy artillery/archers but at most tournament maps there is enouygh wide space for them.

rating 9/10

GS at my opinion prety weak. They neither very good archers nor very good in meele. Also, they dont have unbrekable units which one of the biggest problems. Overly low LS make them weak vs UD especially, and Humans can direct coutner them with several units (elves, dwarves, treeman). + Ice mage hawks and (partly) Fire mage spells (once i saw fireball killed 5 goblin archers at the same time. not to mention fire skull spell)

rating 7/10

and matchups (exl. mirrors)
EM >= UD
EM > GS
UD>> GS (due of fear mostly)



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lordbraprus
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« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2010, 11:14:44 AM »

i dont agree with gs archers, they are prety good , having 2 or 3 squads of them with 3 skulls they are good, and better at fighting that humans and undead archers :O
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ito maquiesves
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« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2010, 02:28:34 PM »

I would rate the strength of my armies in FO and 5k15 as

1st Greenskins, combining many regiments with monsters and many items

2nd Empire, good ranged and melee units but more expensive so less items, but more reliable

3rd Undead, these armies are usually build around just 1-2 main units, Grails, Vampire or mummies and if they fail too early on then the army is quickly lost as they suffer from low WS and fear is unreliable at best if and when it will kick in.

I try never to play the same race, but i also see who the army is best suited against, sure sometimes and GS army should avoid an undead. An Empire army with many flaggelants is better vs undead than being outnumbered by orcs. A GS army with many items can be very useful against undead too tho. Just as a bigger undead army with less quality is better vs GS than Empire
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Wkurwiony
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« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2010, 10:03:38 PM »

It all depends on ruleset but overall i think i like greenskins the most ;] Whitout any restrictions they dont stand a chance against other 2 factions but with rulesets that we have they are pretty good, rulesets balance mostly undead and empire. In fact my favorite armybuilt of all time is my ballista wall in 5k/15 ! well after last point restrictions this might change ;p

so i would say :

1st Greenskins
 - weak on paper but doing good in battles Wink
 - most fun to play with ( imo )

2nd Empire
 - most flexible army in game
 - best ranged units

3rd Undead
 - as they got no good ranged units,
 - their armies always have to act in a predictable way = rush (exclude vampire hit'n'run ;p)
 - armies based around few mighty units rest is filling empty slots
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Jeronimo
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« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2010, 10:30:57 AM »

READ carefully this POST, dont skimmed it, has important analysis.



I'll speak from FO experience. In few words, depends on what are you facing... best matchups depend on the regiments used from both sides and luck in game: But this luck is what I dislike because ruins tactical planning, calculation of forces become useless...

Example: Treeman's power relies on not being hitted by magic.. one ray of anything and "1320 gold lost"... what can be more frustating is being killed (healthy) by 1 simple "hellfire wave"... I have seen this phenomenon already 3 times, or even more?

6/6 Scorpions can take magic attacks longer.. since are 6 mini-monsters.. The problem with them is when "flee", the most ANNOYING thing in any battle, is seeing your regiments fleeing instead of fighting.

However, all 6/6 Scorpion together have better stats/melee power than 1 Treeman. I recall again... the problem with Dark Omen balancing is the "dont flee, fight dammit!" (hehehe, Wraiths should rule others, but NO, they die after having their backs caressed... you see, with LOVE you can defeat these horrible creatures).



In DO, there are mainly 2 things to make regiments run: Leadership cheks, fear/terror checks...
Im surprised White Grail is "Immune to fear + 9 Leadership": How you dare to run away mother fuc***?

YES, white horses tend to flee.- Im upset with the Lchecks/fear checks Angry, because MOST times, regiments are killed by fleeing than by fighting,,, just cause them a check and will be stompped. I wish I could see in DarkOmen more "STABLE" close combats without be thinking in buying Defiance banner...

Worst of DO: Having "L10+imm to fear" doesnt even close to "Defiance effect" lets say just a 50% of it.

Well,, we all know the Pathfinding problem.. that makes 32/32 reg more a hindrance than a reliable unstoppable force (because of exagerated "Flee" activation). In DO engine, the "flee trigger" is TOO EXAGERATED.
Poor goblins dude, they will never have a chance, slow by pathfinding, coward by "retreat exageration checks".

Anecdote: 26/26 Goblins archers 2 skulls (with 1000 experience/2 shields) were hitted by 1 Grudgebriner fireBall.
1 died and fled... 25/26 were stompped by cavalry and well.. all reg died. Cry



This type of things make me want give everyone Leadership 7-8-9-10 (and few more with Imm to fear)
Its just frustating to edit a beautiful army that will probably "dont fight"... so frustating.


I would call this... making "DO engine enjoyable", oh yes, and give "Unimpeded by difficult terrain" to Regiments with 26/26, 32/32, you know... the typical numbers that cant turn around a damn corner (4 ranks deploy).
At least 20/20 regiments have 3 ranks, so they dont desperately need this... movement help?
Undecided
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 10:56:48 AM by Jeronimo » Logged
alavet
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« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2010, 11:05:36 AM »

good read, but you didnt answered to the main topic Cheesy
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CidHalsey
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« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2010, 11:31:58 AM »

I think that's sort of the point though. In real life, and in tabletop fantasy, regiments and men don't fight to the last man except on exceptionally are occasions. The way to win any war is simply to make your opponent not want to fight it, and to win any battle is to make your opponenet run away rather than fight you.
I don't tend to find people flee  ridiciously often in DO, they do flee, but under reasonable circumstances that semi accurately reflect the tabletop experience.

To move back on topic, I think Empire were intentionally made the strongest Race in DO. Because they were designed as the player race for the main campagin, they were designed to be able to win when outnumbered and outgunned. Can't really say no to mortars, steam tanks, grail knights, and wood elf archers now can we?

The best matchup is a harder question. I think Empire VS Greenskins. Largely because neither one of them has the fear/unbreakable mechanic. They are, 'Fighting on equal terms.' as it were. Similar in play style, but yet with completely different unit compostion.
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Jeronimo
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« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2010, 11:39:20 AM »

About this topic... I agree with Mister CidHalsey: HU vs GS

Concerning to DO flee triggers, I would bet for higher L values.
I dont say "add unbreability", just to stay longer at fight melee fights or stand better the "MORTAR 1st Round Impacts!!". Emhh... reagroup bit faster... have more fun indeed.

Otherwise, "Goblin Revolution" will never succed CidHalsey Wink


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A feeling which I trust, an instinct that I have. - George Skuppier
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 11:44:34 AM by Jeronimo » Logged
alavet
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« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2010, 11:56:42 AM »

as for LS values i find it super reasonable for regiment to flee away from battle after 1 good mortair shoot. LOL

i also not sure what i would do vs cavalry charge at real life. i guess id try to mvoe my ass away ASAP. (gonna prove it with some youtube video from braveheart there soon, so you will understand what cavalry charge means excactly Cheesy).

what i think is wierd when i once saw biguns fleed from battle with 15/16 units.

i think its not good that if you will keep moving at rear of fleeing regiment they will flee to the white flag.
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« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2010, 08:47:41 PM »

@ Jeronimo it's the dice rolls that make the game interesting, if you automatically win by picking the right troops the game becomes boring & crap.  The biggest kill-joys (beyond uber artillry) are stong unbreakable units.

Counter points - Charging a unit extra vunerable to flame attacks against a unit with a strenght flame attacks?  Not putting dispels on the treeman?  Not charging the mage for a terror attack, panicing the mage?  Whats wrong with your opponent spending 1k-2k+ points on a mage to counter a high end unit like you treeman?

Scorpians v Treeman
Treeman has alot higher weapon skill, strenght and toughness and is (immune to strenght 3 attacks), plus is alot more manueverable.

I found the grail cavalry to be highly stable, I've only seen them break once for me.  With Immune to fear +LD9 you have to beat them in H2H, then there's only 25% chance of them breaking, so 3time out of 4 they will hold thats not bad.  It highly you placing them in a bad situation for them to break (not always but hey shit happens).

It is harder to manuver large numbers of people, if you give large regiments unipeeded they will outpace smaller regiments in a straight line.  Large regiment are harder to break gain more of an advantage when they get the charge, less manuverabilty is one of the costs you pay.

You moan about calvary stampeding poorly equiped archers (which gobos are) it'sappropreate that they do flee, (again its your fault for not screening your archers.  The gobo tribe in DOE does fairly well IMO.
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« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2010, 08:50:31 PM »

Back too the plot,

Empires the most versitile (and probobly the best), Greenskin the most fun to play.

Undead are the most technically interesting (with various special rules), but on the field they relie on fear, take that away and they a fairly "meh" force.
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alavet
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« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2010, 08:59:30 PM »

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.powered by Aeva



i think this video really express what really does cavalry charge (except that i think horses should've killed several first-two line of infantry at thsi film)
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« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2010, 09:08:27 PM »

its getting your men to stand still and accept the charging cavalry, a real test of morale
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