Warhammer Dark Omen Forum

Warhammer Dark Omen => Singleplayer => Topic started by: RopeDrink on August 30, 2010, 04:00:52 AM

Title: Bigger Armies
Post by: RopeDrink on August 30, 2010, 04:00:52 AM
Hey folks, been signed up for a while but have been busy rigging up my age old favourite game of all time, good ole Dark Omen - Had it on PSX as a youngster and was thrilled when I found it on the PC many years ago.

When I first discovered that the Warhammer Community was doing modding many years ago there was a specific file that quite simply increased the size of every regiment for Friendly and Enemy troops in the SinglePlayer campaign - I was wondering if someone knew where I could find it. I used to tinker with my own custom campaigns in the past but have forgotten how as this was all probably over 6-10 years ago and I don't think I'd have the patience for it now.

Most people have been working on specific army edited campaigns aka Orcs, Undead, Elves, Dwarves etc - Me, personally, I much prefer to play as the Orcs - They are the underdogs seeing as they are quantity, not quality, and even in singleplayer it is extremely difficult to progress without running out of money seeing as they're relatively weak (even though they do have their perks).

To combat this I was trying to slightly modify an Orc Campaign. Have Morgan represented by Boar Boyz (Cavalry), have the usual Arrer Boyz for Crossbowmen and have a regiment of Big Unz for the Infantry rather than Orc Boyz. Replace the Cannon with a Rock Lobber seeing as the Orc Bolt Thrower is the most useless Artillery in the game.

And the whole point of it is to give the starting army a tiny little buff and to increase gold earned by making enemy regiments bigger in size.

I could probably edit that all myself but ultimately all I'm really looking for is the file that greatly increased regiment sizes overall and I could work from there.

Don't suppose anyone just HAPPENS to know about it?

Title: Re: Bigger Armies
Post by: alavet on August 30, 2010, 06:12:56 AM
at very side note but replacingcanon with lobber is very drastic change, lobber is VERY good, and have logner distance than mortair which ruins concepts on some maps (i.e. you'd be able to shoot for soemscreaming catapuilts). you can modify current ballista stats so it will be better, in fact its not that bad.

there is like 7 campaings already issued, some for GS. i advice to check this:
http://forum.dark-omen.org/campaigns-b36.0/ (http://forum.dark-omen.org/campaigns-b36.0/)
and especially that:
http://forum.dark-omen.org/campaigns/new-goblin-campaign-t185.0.html (http://forum.dark-omen.org/campaigns/new-goblin-campaign-t185.0.html)

they already have similar changes even though it will be harder to play. and in some missions you'd face empire army.

as for your main question, i know there is some tools to change qty but im not familiar with that

Title: Re: Bigger Armies
Post by: RopeDrink on August 30, 2010, 08:36:17 AM
It's a justified change. Anyone who has attempted even the default campaign as the regular Orc Army will know that casualties are guaranteed high on each battle and the cost/reward is low as opposed to when you play as the Imperial or Undead who can steamroll through battles with relative ease.

It's almost impossible to earn enough income to repair and replenish troops because the Orcs aren't as sufficient in combat and because they are quantity over quality, you have to pay more.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a bad player, have been playing WH:DO since shortly after it's release, done every path, used every army and done every campaign over and over - And I'm not complaining because I welcome the challenge of playing as the Orcs.

I've given up on the idea of bigger armies and downloaded the WHEdit, booted up the Orc Campaign and tweaked it slightly to give a slight stat balance, reorganized some troops and increased their regiment size.

In addition, I installed the "Rise of Darkness" Mod (which changes the Campaign, Deployment Zone, Regiment Spawn Locations etc) and pitted my edited Orc army against this new Campaign. I've not tried this one before and as the creator says, it is extremely difficult but it works relatively well. The Orcs maintain their low morale and don't have the same strenght as, say, the Grudgebringers but they are big in number and can outlast, makes for an interesting challenge.

If I care that much I'll likely continue to try and balance it out as much as possible, even if it's for myself (seeing as some people will probably disagree with my choices) but ultimately I just wanted to get to fight bigger regiments = bigger kill count = more money = more chance of progress.

I've recorded some of the action and will likely upload it somewhere later if people want to have a look.

Title: Re: Bigger Armies
Post by: RopeDrink on August 30, 2010, 08:43:27 AM
Yes I'm aware there are tonnes of custom campaigns but I'm sad to say I'm not happy with most of them.

*The regular Undead campaign is ridiculously boring and overpowered as you can win purely on fearing everything with any undead unit.
*The Goblin campaign is not enjoyable as they are weak.
*The Elf campaign can be won purely thanks to the Elven archers - Not fun.

Other custom campaings often have silly leaders, such as a Lone Unit as Leader, or another where it's a Cavalry unit of about 8 people with the Leader being an archer - This means the regiment can only fire ONE arrow per shot and because they are 'ranged' units they will not chase down regiments who break from combat, so annoying as they are useless as a ranged unit and not that viable in melee when you have to control them manually all the time.

My main gripe with custom campaigns is that they are either too easy, or there is a bunch of very annoying factors that make it unenjoyable. Don't get me wrong, I respect everyone who works on them and am grateful to everyone for doing something to try and breath life into this game, I'm not criticising just it's personal preference.

Now, I find the old Orc campaign is a) Challenging and b) Relatively balanced, just the costs can be a bit steep. I also had to edit out the Fanatics that you get with the Goblin Infantry & Archers because 99% of the time they simply cause more friendly casualties than they do enemies.

I'm simply trying to make a more fun and balanced version of the Orc army as well as increase regiment sizes, thats all.

Title: Re: Bigger Armies
Post by: alavet on August 30, 2010, 09:01:27 AM
ok i understand you.

hovewer you need to account following things:
1) the bigger number of enemies = the higher "morale" they have (i.e. number of rows, in terms of WH rules)
2) you can edit gold per enemy by adding to them as a gold "chests" either to the map or to regiment.

also i dont find goblin camaping too difficuilt, it's lots about flanking and attacking form the rear so YOU will take advantage of morale factor :)

+ you need to try that one campaing:
http://forum.dark-omen.org/campaigns/orc-campaign-t773.0.html (http://forum.dark-omen.org/campaigns/orc-campaign-t773.0.html)
(not finished, just tests)

or the dwarf one

Title: Re: Bigger Armies
Post by: Ghabry on August 30, 2010, 01:48:57 PM
Best tactic for Goblin Campign: Don't deploy crap = Rhakhan (the leader) and Dread Axe (Ragnar) kill alone the whole enemy :D.

Smurf had made a campaign that has 32 units for every regiment if you mean this one.
It is included with DOC111 (http://en.dark-omen.org/downloads/view-details/1.-modding-tools/4.-miscellaneous-tools/doc111.html).

Title: Re: Bigger Armies
Post by: Darkmancer on August 30, 2010, 02:28:59 PM
For balancing:

Costs for replacing tropps are based on the units level of armour.  Consider reducing armour and boosting toughness (beware +1tou > +1armour).

Rewards for killing stuff is based on the enemy units point value I believe.

Golins have poor combat stats so they are more likely to take a panic test, this effect is multiplied by the fact they have low leadership.  Not strictly cannon but increase their leadership they'll still break more due to poor stats but it hopefully not so often.

Title: Re: Bigger Armies
Post by: RopeDrink on August 31, 2010, 04:10:29 AM

When I started tweaking it I had the Orcs stats relatively similar to that of the default grudgebringer armies (without ruining what makes them play like Orcs) so they typically had less leadership (marginal), less ballistic skills, generally less weapon skills but 'tougher'. Sadly most of them have the exact same armor levels (Boar Boyz, 5xArmor Mounted / Boyz 3xArmor) same as the rest so despite being lesser in skill but a bit tougher, they still cost around the same but fight less effectively and 'panic' more often making costs pretty high.

I contemplated reducing their 'point' value but I hate that as it seems cheap and also gives misguided 'skull' levels. Having Boar Boyz (Cavalry) as 2 Skulls and Orc Boyz (Infantry) as 1 Skull just isn't acceptable even if it doesn't seem to make too big a difference other than cost to repair/replenish.

I had a lot of fun with the tweaked campaign taking on the Rise of the Dead vs my Orc Army - Considering every level has tonnes of enemy mortar/cannons and strong units it made sense to increase the size of the Orc army to compensate.

Bolt Thrower was replaced with Rock Lobber (It was fair, mostly because the start levels all have plenty of enemy Mortar and Cannons, sometimes 4-5 on the map at once which just randomly tear up the armies), bigger regiment sizes and in terms of future units I swapped the Spider (Flagellants) for a Troll and the Troll for a Spider (Makes sense as it arrives the same time as a Scorpion at the end of the game). Replaced some OrcBoyz regiments with Big'Uns.

Even with these changes the money gained from battle was still relatively low and costs somewhat high despite often having to kill 4 times the amount of enemy regiments you would on default campaign but it was do'able and challenging.

All I'd really want is to increase the default campaign enemy sizes and use a regular default Orc Army with one or two alterations - Guess I could try do that myself at some stage.

Still, big thanks for all the replies and helpful links, everyone!

Title: Re: Bigger Armies
Post by: olly on August 31, 2010, 09:51:20 PM

Orcs are also my favourite, so i will look forward to this Campaign Project.


Title: Re: Bigger Armies
Post by: RopeDrink on September 02, 2010, 10:43:47 AM
Thanks Olly - It'd likely only be a Singleplayer Campaign though.

I've been making games & artwork for years so I tend to get creative with things. If I did make a custom Orc campaign then I'd likely need to find out what is needed to edit the banners etc

I can create my own in Photoshop but no doubt I'd need to use a program to re-pack the images into some other format. I'll look into it if I get started on this campaign.

Title: Re: Bigger Armies
Post by: olly on September 02, 2010, 10:20:03 PM
Please use Rob's Dark Omen Sprite/Banner etc viewer

http://en.dark-omen.org/downloads/view-details/1.-modding-tools/3.-sprite-editors/rdose.html (http://en.dark-omen.org/downloads/view-details/1.-modding-tools/3.-sprite-editors/rdose.html)

and Gimp

http://forum.dark-omen.org/2d-sprites/sprites-t190.0.html (http://forum.dark-omen.org/2d-sprites/sprites-t190.0.html)

Since the Glorious Call of Warhammer Medieval 2 Total War Mod team have very kindly granted permission to use their 3d Models for making our 2d sprites (3d models are rotated in 8 directions and 15 poses) then I can give u the 2d pictures to use as a Template to follow.

http://forum.dark-omen.org/2d-sprites/call-of-warhammer-3d-models-to-dark-omen-2d-sprites-t805.0.html (http://forum.dark-omen.org/2d-sprites/call-of-warhammer-3d-models-to-dark-omen-2d-sprites-t805.0.html)

Especially since they just added the Giant to the Greenskins!

orcs_vs_humans.avi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX7bhEQAOLw#normal)


Title: Re: Bigger Armies
Post by: alavet on September 03, 2010, 05:55:09 AM
oh man i need to dl thsi mod asap. :O

are they able to implement the magic system>?

Title: Re: Bigger Armies
Post by: RopeDrink on September 04, 2010, 08:15:31 PM
Awesome stuff, thanks for the helpful links.
I'd probably go the more traditional route and edit a Troll sprite or even design my own as I'm not up for the 3D work and I find quite a number of new sprites always seem a bit out of place.

Would definately be nice to create a whole new unit from scratch rather than just edit existing ones though.

Title: Re: Bigger Armies
Post by: Darkmancer on September 05, 2010, 01:17:45 AM
A few tips on unit sprites:

The number of frames must remain the same as the sprite your replacing.

The final image to convert into a spr must be an indexed bmp, with 16 colours or less, you cannot use transparency in the final image otherwise it turns pink. the first indexed colour needs to be the green DO uses for transparency.  Also a common colour is a light blue which DO treats as the units shadow.

Sometimes you have to realign individual sprites when RDOSE throws a hissy fit.  

The red dot need to be put at the bottom centre of the unit: not the centre image.

If you need to expand the canvas do it uniformly eg 120% x 120% not 100 x 120.  Even if your going to make the new sprite fatter/thinner than before.

You need to be a bit forgiving with DO it's an old game.


Title: Re: Bigger Armies
Post by: RopeDrink on September 05, 2010, 08:14:23 AM
Oh I have no doubt.
If I was to try and create 'giants' (Using Troll as template) I'd likely recolour it, give some custom touches and maybe increase the size slightly - I'm sure none of that would go completely against the grain so ultimately I wouldn't have to risk too much.

Either way I'm grateful for all the advice everyone has given. I've still been using my current tweaked Orc campaign versus the stupidly difficult Rise of Darkness (Or whatever mod completely altered level/enemy spawn locations) and am at Drakonhoff Castle... That fight is just ridiculously difficult considering there's at least 2-3 caster vampires, 2 regiments of 3xVampires (Each) as melee, a Bright Wizard, CountManfred, Grudgebringer Cavalry, hordes of undead Archers, Zombies, Ghouls, Wights etc

All versus Orc Army Minus Artillery (Which is a shame because the Rock Lobbers would barely make it even but yes, as we know we can't use artillery on that level).

It's proving very harsh but the Orc Army is somewhat nice.

Title: Re: Bigger Armies
Post by: RopeDrink on September 06, 2010, 11:42:47 AM
Just wanted to give a final post to this thread - I've ditched my old 'bigger'n'better' Orc Campaign idea and created a (hopefully) balanced alternative called "Monsterous Menagerie" featuring somewhat fun new Singleplayer Army composed of a blend of Monsters (Primarily), Orcs, Goblins and Outlaws.

I've tried testing it but not vs the default campaign (which I feel is too easy regardless) but against a seperate one but said campaign has proven to crash a lot so I think I'll go back to testing it vs the default first, then maybe re-creating the enemy races and battles.

So far it's quite fun. You can see the thread here (If it interests you):
http://forum.dark-omen.org/campaigns/monsterous-menagerie-t875.0.html;msg9023;topicseen#msg9023 (http://forum.dark-omen.org/campaigns/monsterous-menagerie-t875.0.html;msg9023;topicseen#msg9023)

If it proves to work and is balanced/fun then I'll go from a simple ARM_ALL edit to making custom banners and maybe sprites to boot.

Thanks everyone for all their replies and advice!