Warhammer Dark Omen Forum

Warhammer Dark Omen => Rules and Standards => Topic started by: Jeronimo on February 02, 2010, 03:54:03 PM



Title: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: Jeronimo on February 02, 2010, 03:54:03 PM
I had enough time to think (1 month) the changes that would take place in FO this year.
You will find a very different version in many senses. Document file has been updated with all new stuff.

Note: I cant upload MAINMENU because is too large (see it in "Fair Omen after 1st Tournament" topic).

Download (http://wiki.dark-omen.org/do/DO/Rules/Fair_Omen)


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: olly on February 02, 2010, 07:40:04 PM
Sounds Cool!

Thanks

:)




Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: lordbraprus on February 08, 2010, 12:31:22 AM
ahah here it is

(http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/4468/mainmenu.th.png) (http://img211.imageshack.us/i/mainmenu.png/)

you just right clickand save image has. and with paint make it 256 colours renameit as MAINMENU and copy to graphics/pictures folder :D love you all


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: Jeronimo on February 08, 2010, 07:35:54 PM
@Request to Ghabry. Replace first link.
This is the changed version ( I fixed artillery prices after testing them with Mr. Shadow in hamachi).
Replace old link with name FAIR OMEN, so people have only to click on first POST. (like in DecemberT).


@Community: If anyone has problems with patching EngRel, send me a private message.

You need Original DO EngRel version to patch, otherwise, the changes wont be taken.
Revise if patched successfully (in .doc all changes are well explained now, the oldies and new ones).


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: Jeronimo on March 01, 2010, 10:13:29 AM
Well, i have working all night.. I did some tweaking to 2parm, and compressed DOC text from 6 pages to only 4!
I fixed the problem of halberiders spam, besides others things. Now 3k/FO= aprox 5 regiments. (average)
I'll show 3 nice armybuilds (that satisfy me :))


(http://images.dark-omen.org/troops/empire/banner/ice_mage.png) (http://en.dark-omen.org/troops/empire/ice-mage.html)
(http://images.dark-omen.org/troops/empire/banner/helmgart_bowmen.png) (http://en.dark-omen.org/troops/empire/helmgart-bowmen.html)
(http://images.dark-omen.org/troops/empire/banner/grudgebringer_cavalry.png) (http://en.dark-omen.org/troops/empire/grudgebringer-cavalry.html)
(http://images.dark-omen.org/troops/empire/banner/greatswords.png) (http://en.dark-omen.org/troops/empire/imperial-greatswords.html)
(http://images.dark-omen.org/troops/empire/banner/grudgebringer_infantry.png) (http://en.dark-omen.org/troops/empire/grudgebringer-infantry.html)
Vladimir Stormbringer
Helmgart Bowmen
Grudgebringer Cavalry
Imperial Greatswords
Grudgebringer Infantry


(http://images.dark-omen.org/troops/greenskins/banner/night_goblin_shaman.png) (http://en.dark-omen.org/troops/greenskins/night-goblin-shaman.html)
(http://images.dark-omen.org/troops/greenskins/banner/spider.png) (http://en.dark-omen.org/troops/greenskins/gigantic-spider.html)
(http://images.dark-omen.org/troops/greenskins/banner/orc_arrer_boyz.png) (http://en.dark-omen.org/troops/greenskins/orc-arrer-boyz.html)
(http://images.dark-omen.org/troops/greenskins/banner/orc_boyz.png) (http://en.dark-omen.org/troops/greenskins/orc-boyz.html)
(http://images.dark-omen.org/troops/greenskins/banner/orc_biguns.png) (http://en.dark-omen.org/troops/greenskins/orc-biguns.html)
Night Goblin Shaman
Gigantic Spider
Orc Arrer Boyz
Orc Boyz
Orc Big'uns


(http://images.dark-omen.org/troops/undeads/banner/necromancer.png) (http://en.dark-omen.org/troops/undeads/necromancer.html)
(http://images.dark-omen.org/troops/undeads/banner/skeleton_archers.png) (http://en.dark-omen.org/troops/undeads/skeleton-archers.html)
(http://images.dark-omen.org/troops/undeads/banner/skeleton_archers.png) (http://en.dark-omen.org/troops/undeads/skeleton-archers.html)
(http://images.dark-omen.org/troops/undeads/banner/screaming_skull_catapult.png) (http://en.dark-omen.org/troops/undeads/screaming-skull-catapult.html)
(http://images.dark-omen.org/troops/undeads/banner/screaming_skull_catapult.png) (http://en.dark-omen.org/troops/undeads/screaming-skull-catapult.html)
Necromancer
Skeleton Archers
Skeleton Archers
Screaming Skull Catapult
Screaming Skull Catapult

It just rests to prepare some good maps, and game is done.


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: alavet on June 03, 2010, 07:04:43 AM
could you pls post your latest ruleset there so we can discuss about possible changes?


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: Jeronimo on June 03, 2010, 11:56:09 AM
I will post it, in shortly :) , I want to try/test some things before... and add them to FO overall structure.

You see, although I didnt crack Shields, I found a decent way to add them... and I want to see if can handle with pathfinding/fast flee triggers now. All this with Win32Edit hehehe, I'll try to do my best.


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: Jeronimo on July 16, 2010, 05:44:06 AM
Finally I post here the 3 Races info + Items... this Version is for upcoming July Tournament, so you have here the info you need to talk about it and share opinions.
My Last New Regs Structure (since its very flexible for any future tweaks that may need).

Movement tweaks: Wraiths Mov is 5. Vampire Mov is 5. Goblins & Dwarves +"Unim by diff terrain".

(http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2603/humanos.png) (http://img143.imageshack.us/i/humanos.png/)


(http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/8232/greenskins.png) (http://img697.imageshack.us/i/greenskins.png/)


(http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/516/undeadq.png) (http://img192.imageshack.us/i/undeadq.png/)


(http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/1895/itemsw.png) (http://img340.imageshack.us/i/itemsw.png/)


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: alavet on July 16, 2010, 06:43:49 AM
ok my thoughts
NICE SHIELD INCRESMENT ALONG WITH TROOP LEVEL

overall: cavalry should be higher by ~10% or so i belive.
what is FE? full experience? what teh diffiirence between 4* and 4** in real stats

EMPIRE
1) isnt flagellants too low in cost? i think 850 is better for them
2) what grails knights actuall yahve? i believe immune to fear only ad LS like 9?
3) whats wrogn with wood elves?   it could be overpriced but im not sure.
4) perhars treeman should be little upper in cost. 1440-1500 i think now.

GS

1) biguns could be little bit low in price for high level. i wouldve icnreased it for 10-20%
2) WTF at boar boyz. i think they actually same warriors as human cavalry, arent they?

UD
mummies could be higher in cost. i know you have to invest 600 more but still 1700 gc for such freakign overpower unit could be low cost. soemthing like icnrease for 100 or more. jsut compare light grails to mummies in price there is no much diffirience

ITEMS
Defiance to 500. srsly. or 550 at least.
lighting sword to 175 or 150. sword of ferball i prefer much more.
skrabash to 550 or 500


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: Jeronimo on July 16, 2010, 06:45:52 PM
ALAVET & EVERYONE: I took the time to explain well this so please read and not skip parts of my reply.
There is a general upgrade for everyone, besides Mov Tweaks i made this.

Leadership Boost: All regiments now have +1 Leadership to run less, fight more.
There are few exceptions to this: Wights & Trolls +2 L. Mummies & Elves +0 L (same L8).
Which can explain of some prices, like Flagellants remaining at 720 and Skabrash at 450.

Your overall cavalry +10% suggestion: Do you want 780 for Cavalries 720 for Boars/elf glade runners? That would be really overpriced I think, since remember at May Tournament they were at 600gc, now generally +120 its very ok (from my point of view) at those times cavalry was at 600 you also said "maybe +10%" :)

Level 4 is Basic, level 4* means Advanced and level 4 FE “Full Experience”.
When regiment starts with 3 or 4 skulls at basic, has these upgrades... its same as if had started with 2 skullls...
0 exp, 1000 exp, 3000 exp , 6000 exp (FE) >>> Basic, +1 WS or BS, +1S, +1W

Empire:
1) They arent low in cost, in fact they can dissapoint at higher cost, at least your 850 could be the 840 (wiht +1 WS for them). Compare that 12/12 wights with L10+3W+wight blade cost 660.
Flag are weak vs any arrows, magic swords (since they are few), outnumbered easily. May Tourney Semi video vs Wkur.

2) White Grail: Imm to fear, now L10, 3 shields start, +1 WS, +1S than Merc. horsemen. 960 Its... Fair :)

3) Elf archers at 1080 are better in action than 9 mummies (1 reason i dont want to make mummies higher), sadly to say, but are also better than 1 imperial mortar (also at 1080gc), their fire speed and range has amused me to the point of seeing them kill even mummies each 2-3 rain of arrows (it seems their arrows do more damage).

4) If it were higher in cost I honestly wouldnt buy him :), Elf archers at 1440 (+1 BS), really kick more asses than a Treeman trying to not flee from melee combat. I tested the Elves and with 5 BS, its very assasin.
You see Treeman cost its like cavalry 4 FE, which with luck can easily rout treeman, but also remember their "magic weakness overall) and they ARENT imm to fear.

Greenskins:
1) Now, I would buy honestly 26 orc boyz 3 shields, +1WS, +1S, at 540 instead of the big'uns at 780, (which are same as Boars with 3 shields, +1 WS, 780gc "big mmmmh" here).
Remember Lobber still is at 960gc, if top biguns were at.. "840" I will prefer a Lobber + Top Orc boyz always :)

2) No man... Boar are not similar than cavalry, I would describe they are worse, since having tusks is the only advantage of them, Boar Movement is like 5 of Infantry, almost no difference. Also these Greenskins tend to flee all the time. I was testing at home.. even charging they can flee making tusks obsolete element (you need luck :)).

Undead:
1) I once tried Mummies spam vs my bro testing (no BoD), and you know... they trully suck, they will flee even having 9/9. During Tournament I used Mummies 7/7 with no BoD and they fled and were killed by stomps of Infantry... so this Regiment is "almost useless" without BoD, reason I kept it at 600gc.
Same as Flagellants but worse, talking about "NO Banner of Defiance" they may dissapoint you at higher costs, make them a flank attack, wait 2 magic cycles and pray they dont run. :(
NOTE: They keep Leadership 8, there wasnt a boost for them.. still same while others got bit better (even wraiths had +1L, while Wights +2 to L10 these heavy champions).

Items:
Defiance: Is 1 of the best Items of game, we all know why. I preferred 600, since its better Item than Spelleater Shield or Osiris (both already at 550), we make an exception with BoW which cost 650 (many times dissapoint, only makes considerable damage when FEW regiments are left in battlefield).
Think in 1 Regiment with 2 wounds and superior stats/shields unbreakable... unbreakable... unbreakable... unbreakable... unbreakable... unbreakable... unbreakable... unbreakable... unbreakable... :)

Skabskrath: Simply isnt needed by UD forces.. at 500 its better Wand of Jet, Osiris stuff kills better, remember Leadership boosts, many reg causing fear/terror.. At 450, Skabrskrath or Infernal+PoS? (also try other combos).

Lightning Sword Grudbringer Sword: It depends on the point of view, my bro and I state that Lightning is "better", you Alavet state that that Grudgebringer is "better", depends obv in our experiences...
NOTE: I remember 1 anecdote, Lsword in my big'uns really electrocuted my bro Flagellants, 2 rays 2 kills, it affects better vs Infantries (maybe a discovery?), while Gsword many times strikes an invisible wall instead of hiting the unit. So at 200gc, I doubt about Magic Book for extra spell or Lsword to kill Infantry. (Dragonhelm wont help you).


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: Darkmancer on July 16, 2010, 08:16:38 PM
Quote
Level 4 is Basic, level 4* means Advanced and level 4 FE “Full Experience”.
When regiment starts with 3 or 4 skulls at basic, has these upgrades... its same as if had started with 2 skullls...
0 exp, 1000 exp, 3000 exp , 6000 exp (FE) >>> Basic, +1 WS or BS, +1S, +1W

Are you putting in these bonus's artificially or assuming do puts them in?

On a side note when wrights lose a round in h2h do they break instantly or take a leadership check?  It's something i've never tested.

Edit
Why did you not increase Mummies ldrship when your main problem with them is them running?


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: alavet on July 16, 2010, 08:40:45 PM
Quote
Your overall cavalry +10% suggestion: Do you want 780 for Cavalries 720 for Boars/elf glade runners? That would be really overpriced I think, since remember at May Tournament they were at 600gc, now generally +120 its very ok (from my point of view) at those times cavalry was at 600 you also said "maybe +10%"

IVE JUST NOTICED THERE IS 16 AT CAVALRY UNIT. IS IT A STANDARD QUANTITY? I BELIVE IN SATNDARD DARK OMEN THERE WAS 12 CAVALRY UNITS ONLY. IF SO, PORICE FOR 800 IS MORE THAN ENOUGH BALANCED IMO (AND GRAIL SHOULD BE HIGHER)

Quote
3) Elf archers at 1080 are better in action than 9 mummies (1 reason i dont want to make mummies higher), sadly to say, but are also better than 1 imperial mortar (also at 1080gc), their fire speed and range has amused me to the point of seeing them kill even mummies each 2-3 rain of arrows (it seems their arrows do more damage).

4) If it were higher in cost I honestly wouldnt buy him , Elf archers at 1440 (+1 BS), really kick more asses than a Treeman trying to not flee from melee combat. I tested the Elves and with 5 BS, its very assasin.
You see Treeman cost its like cavalry 4 FE, which with luck can easily rout treeman, but also remember their "magic weakness overall) and they ARENT imm to fear.


FOR THAT I MEANT ELVEN SPEARMEN. I UDNERSTOOD ARCHERS BETETR THA NMORTAIR.

Quote
Level 4 is Basic, level 4* means Advanced and level 4 FE “Full Experience”.
When regiment starts with 3 or 4 skulls at basic, has these upgrades... its same as if had started with 2 skullls...
0 exp, 1000 exp, 3000 exp , 6000 exp (FE) >>> Basic, +1 WS or BS, +1S, +1W


YES PLS  ELEBORATE WHERE YOU GOT THIS DATA
Quote
2) No man... Boar are not similar than cavalry, I would describe they are worse, since having tusks is the only advantage of them, Boar Movement is like 5 of Infantry, almost no difference. Also these Greenskins tend to flee all the time. I was testing at home.. even charging they can flee making tusks obsolete element (you need luck ).


CAN YOU PROOF IT? GIVEN GRAPHIC THERE IS ALMOST NO DIFFIRIENCE. BOARS HAVE EVEN BATTER TO BUT LESS IN

(http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=lc&chd=t:40,50,50,40,40,20,50,30,90|40,40,30,40,30,10,40,10,70&chco=ff0000,00ff00&chf=bg,s,000000&chdl=Leader|Regiment&chls=2.0,0.0,0.0&chxt=x,y&chxl=0:|MO|WS|BS|ST|TO|WO|IN|AT|LS|1:||1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10&chxs=0,ffffff|1,ffffff&chs=540x200&chg=0,10)
(http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=lc&chd=t:40,40,30,30,40,10,20,10,70&chco=00ff00&chf=bg,s,000000&chdl=Regiment&chls=2.0,0.0,0.0&chxt=x,y&chxl=0:|MO|WS|BS|ST|TO|WO|IN|AT|LS|1:||1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10&chxs=0,ffffff|1,ffffff&chs=540x200&chg=0,10)

Quote
1) Now, I would buy honestly 26 orc boyz 3 shields, +1WS, +1S, at 540 instead of the big'uns at 780, (which are same as Boars with 3 shields, +1 WS, 780gc "big mmmmh" here).


YOU'RE ACTUALLY RIGHT. I'VE JUST CHECKED STATS FOR ORCS AND BGUNS AND THERE IS ALMOST NO DIFFIRIENE, BIGUNS ONLY HAVE +1INT AND +1 WS +1STR


Quote
1) I once tried Mummies spam vs my bro testing (no BoD), and you know... they trully suck, they will flee even having 9/9. During Tournament I used Mummies 7/7 with no BoD and they fled and were killed by stomps of Infantry... so this Regiment is "almost useless" without BoD, reason I kept it at 600gc.
Same as Flagellants but worse, talking about "NO Banner of Defiance" they may dissapoint you at higher costs, make them a flank attack, wait 2 magic cycles and pray they dont run.

I FALLEN TO UNDERSTOOD THIS POST. I SEE U SAID 7/7 MUMMIES BUT U ILLUSTRATING 9/9 MUMMIES. I MEAN 1700 GC THEY'RE VERY USEFULL. I KNOW W/O BOD THEY SUCK BUT WITH BOD THEY'RE GREATER THAN 2 REGIMENTS AND SOMETIMES THEY HANDLE UP TO 4 OTHER REGIMENTS AND WIN. SO SMAAAL INCREASMENT COULD WORK FOR THEM

Quote
Defiance: Is 1 of the best Items of game, we all know why. I preferred 600, since its better Item than Spelleater Shield or Osiris (both already at 550), we make an exception with BoW which cost 650 (many times dissapoint, only makes considerable damage when FEW regiments are left in battlefield).
Think in 1 Regiment with 2 wounds and superior stats/shields unbreakable... unbreakable... unbreakable... unbreakable... unbreakable... unbreakable... unbreakable... unbreakable... unbreakable...

HAHA SO LETS COUTN HOW MANY UNITS WITH 2 WOUNDS WE HAVE? UHMM I GUESS BGK, WIGHTS, MUMMIES, ANDDD OGRES.. TOO OVERPRICED FOR ANY OTHER RACE THAN UD.


P.S. SORRY FOR CAPS LOCK, I STARTED IN BOX FAST REPLY BUT THEN I HAD TO MAKE MORE QUOTES BUT STICKED TO CAPS LOCK.

P.P.S. DID YOU REMOVED TERROR FROM BGK?



Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: Jeronimo on July 16, 2010, 11:41:30 PM
Ok, lets start to reply... slowly.

@Darkmancer: I assume the extra bonus are the same than in SotHR. I read a big post (Olly thx) explaining battle mechanics and experience upgrades. And I must say... I agree with what was explained + shown in my test battles vs my brother. It seems evolution is same than in SotHR.
You already notice, experienced archers shoot faster and with +aim... fighters do better in battle as well ;)

Seems that Wraiths run after losing "hand to hand round", while Wights lose after taking Leadership check (like most regiments) Do WRAITH'S FLAG sound familiar? ;) Wights dont have any specific flag ticked. Check with Win32Edit.

I didnt boost Mummies leadership because I would have to make them more expensive. Their L8 + flammability + Mov 3 is good enough for costing 1080gc... more L would mean +cost for it, they already "rocked" and Elves too, so no need yo make them "better".

@Alavet: I accept your apologizes for writing so brutally :) Not proper from a Zombie but its Ok.

Cavalry: Yes, there a 12/12 and 16/16. More number doesnt mean more effectiveness. One thing are Stats (as always we tend to see and give price with that) but another thing is the performance on battlefield.
My brother has complained more than once that Mercenary Cavalry with his "good" Stats is complete rubbish at fighting, you see they fight a bit, dont kill anyone and then run away? Always the same. Dissapointed we are.

Take a look closer to my tables: 16 units start with 2 shields, while 12 units (Grails) start with 3 shields :)
Skeleton horsemen will instantly die due to Skeleton Flag... so why not 16 units? Also they need this number to support arrow/magic attacks until they arrive enemy positions... with 12 would crumble before charging.
Note: BoW is very effective at killing them. And fanatics? hehehe, skeletons are paper.

720 is already enough, with 3,5k you wont see them much. You can also try Merc. Ogres (2 Shield+cause fear+Mov6)
More expensive cavalry will end in Infantry Spam + Artilleries back, you need something to block the Ranged... they are the Anti-Lame Regiments, you understand my point...
9/9 Pistoliers are still at 900gc, considering that having 16/16 in "melee cavalry" is logical ;)

Wood Glade Runners: Remember that 14/14 from NB9k were at 690gc, were you complaining because mine cost 660 being 20/20? :) Is not overpriced, in fact if you do big comparisons, they cost like 16 Orc Boar, or new 12 Wights (L10), all at 660.
Their speed+polearm+terror vs goblins+hate Greenskins (reason why I kept L8), makes them the Lanced Cavalry of The Empire.

Orc Boar Boyz: They are too slow for being a "mounted" (like Mov 5 of Infantry) and have -2 stats than a Big'un (-1I,-1S).
Poor Boars, with Initiative 2, are quite awful.. as I say once, pure luck you need. 16 units, or the tusks will almost dont exist. I still bet for monsters wich cause terror and move faster, better for manoeuvres :)
One thing are graphics stats, another is to see them in action. Read again my comment above about Merc. Horsemen.

Mummies doubt: I mentioned an example of Wkurwiony tournament. Even having 1 Mummies+Defiance doesnt mean victory.
Magic/ even some proyectiles/ monsters squads can create havoc among them.
Outnumbered they are nothing too, same as Wigths, Flagelants.
I prefer (in FO) to have 2 Top Skeleton Warriors instead of 1 Mummy: 540x2 = 1080. Saving money for Vampire or BGK...
2nd favourite choice: Top 20/20 Ghouls 900 gc+Defiance, you get a killing machine IMO better than mummies due to Mov 4 and everyone with 2 Wounds (40 in total !!)
3rd choice: Top Zombies or Wights+Defiance.. not really necessary since Wights have L10 in order to not need BoD (of course) and Zombies still kick asses, just cover their backs while fighting.

Defiance joke: I know you some of my words like a joke, but the Level 4 FE means it comes with +1W for every unit in Regiment, make x2 and you will see many end with more Wounds than Mummies... Still thinking in more expensive Mummies Alavet?
Concerning to BGK, they are the same as always: Cause fear + Leadership Check. Never had Terror (its only a Campaign upgrade in order to make Mission more difficult, hehehe, it wasnt enough ;))


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: Darkmancer on July 17, 2010, 01:54:59 AM
Jeronimo, We assumed how those stats would be implemented in DO, however our testing (me and olly) showed no difference between lvl1 and lvl 4 troops.

I'll happily do another round of testing but I believe your wrong there.

Also are you really sure the wraith flag does ignore ld check?  5 ldrship is a v.low score I think it has a 1:4 chance of passing, are you assuming it skips the check? or have you done some testing with wraiths at L10?


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: alavet on July 17, 2010, 09:42:09 AM
Quote
Cavalry: Yes, there a 12/12 and 16/16. More number doesnt mean more effectiveness. One thing are Stats (as always we tend to see and give price with that) but another thing is the performance on battlefield.
My brother has complained more than once that Mercenary Cavalry with his "good" Stats is complete rubbish at fighting, you see they fight a bit, dont kill anyone and then run away? Always the same. Dissapointed we are.

sorry for rudness i think its a bullshit. i dont beleive there is much of "hidden stats" or soemthing. i guess you faced bad luck with dice rolls. see both regiments as boars and human cavalry have same stats. cavalry not superior stats and have almsot same stats as ifantry soemtimes but their superb ability of flanking and retreating (yes, soemtiems retreatign actuall help you, cause you can reposition you cavalry  if get lucky and attack same regiment from the rear. otherwise if they'd ought to death they could lost or witn with 1-2 cavalry remain). also they move fast meaning you can pursue them to whit flag)

Quote
Wood Glade Runners: Remember that 14/14 from NB9k were at 690gc, were you complaining because mine cost 660 being 20/20?  Is not overpriced, in fact if you do big comparisons, they cost like 16 Orc Boar, or new 12 Wights (L10), all at 660.
Their speed+polearm+terror vs goblins+hate Greenskins (reason why I kept L8), makes them the Lanced Cavalry of The Empire.

i mean 4 lvl elven spermen costs 1200. isnt it too much? seems for me a little


Quote
Orc Boar Boyz: They are too slow for being a "mounted" (like Mov 5 of Infantry) and have -2 stats than a Big'un (-1I,-1S).
Poor Boars, with Initiative 2, are quite awful.. as I say once, pure luck you need. 16 units, or the tusks will almost dont exist. I still bet for monsters wich cause terror and move faster, better for manoeuvres
One thing are graphics stats, another is to see them in action. Read again my comment above about Merc. Horsemen.

im not mathcing boars between biguns. i matchign their prcie vs merc cavalry, which are alsmot the same.


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: olly on July 18, 2010, 01:27:17 PM
New additional Website Wraith Troop description taken from 1994 Undead Rulebook

http://en.dark-omen.org/troops/undeads/wraiths.html (http://en.dark-omen.org/troops/undeads/wraiths.html)


:)


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: Jeronimo on July 31, 2010, 11:59:24 AM
http://rapidshare.com/files/410167181/Fair_Omen.zip (http://rapidshare.com/files/410167181/Fair_Omen.zip)

(with Mappatch version .3)



Please, read the document :)


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: Darkmancer on July 31, 2010, 01:46:51 PM
When I said include map patch 3, I meant unpacked so everyone would defo have the same version you dingbat.


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: Flak on July 31, 2010, 02:06:22 PM
i read it but it seems in my memory kinda similar to the one i read last time?

what is it you would like us to pay attention to? ;)


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: Flak on July 31, 2010, 02:36:33 PM
if all units now have LD 8, surely you have lowered the cost for elves and dwarves who now holds a much smaller advantage


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: Jeronimo on July 31, 2010, 09:10:41 PM
Well, in fact, in general regs have +1L including Including Dwarves (with L10 now). Except elves and mummies.


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: Flak on July 31, 2010, 09:13:04 PM
I like most of the things in FO
I didnt really feel the +1 LD but then it shouldnt be too significant anyway so
I think you need to consider that Spider, Scorpions and Trolls are now in groups of 3 and 6 while ogres are still just 3 and now fall somewhat behind as a primary regiment, i would suggest 4 ogres in a regiment for them to keep an edge


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: Darkmancer on July 31, 2010, 09:33:23 PM
It's nice restricting creature features to greenskins thou, ogres seem to be coming a standard regiment when they shouldnt really.

Units that are under expensive.  Before I said none but thinking about it all medium melee (orcs, biguns, ghouls, skeles, swordsmen, merc, halberdiers) could use a slight increase to promote a bits more unit type diversity.


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: Jeronimo on August 01, 2010, 06:01:47 AM
I like most of the things in FO
I didnt really feel the +1 LD but then it shouldnt be too significant anyway so
I think you need to consider that Spider, Scorpions and Trolls are now in groups of 3 and 6 while ogres are still just 3 and now fall somewhat behind as a primary regiment, i would suggest 4 ogres in a regiment for them to keep an edge

It happens that Ogres = Spiders (after comparing them, all things). They are at 660gc, previusly were at 720gc.
A resolution can be returning to old values. Troll from 840 to 900 again, etc...

BUT, the reason of making them -60 is because they dont stand chances vs hordes of soldiers, like the 26/26 or 32/32 regiments, so many units to kill, without mentioning those with several wounds.

I have recorded the battles, where is shown how 6/6 Scorpions run after recevinig a LCheck, or Trolls dying by magical swords (celestial),, so arent invencible.
Olly who had 3 Ogres, 1 Treeman regs, lost that HU vs HU battle because they couldnt face too many units.

The Role of these "3/3 6/6 (including wraiths)", is to chase, try to rout from behind-flank, pass throw narrow places, persue wizards & siege machines, but.... facing an army face to face... never >>> They will fail.

You can use cavalry instead of monsters, so its an equivalent, where you plan if you want more units, better speed, stronger armor or cause Lchecks with ease. I think all regs complement each other...

Example: 16/16 Orc Boar Boyz and 3/3 Spiders cost 660 (same).
Having to choose 4 fast regimetns, what do you pick: 4 Boars, 4 Spiders, or mix 2 Boars-2 Spiders.
Its hard to say, but since you can have with Empire, 4 Elf Runners, also you may buy 4 Merc. Ogres, similar to the example with Boarz-Spiders (also 660 these regiments).
The problem perhaps is that feels unnatural... we prefer to see 4 Elf Runners instead of 4 of Ogres because Elves have 20/20 units and looks like an Elf Army, however having many Ogres, looks strange.

I assure you that, beyond what looks visually accepted, the balance issue is allright, there is symmetry in the example above. People wont tend to mass, as I coloured, the natural choice of average players is to pick 2-2 in order to cover all necessities that may ocurr in battlefield.


It's nice restricting creature features to greenskins thou, ogres seem to be coming a standard regiment when they shouldnt really.

Units that are under expensive.  Before I said none but thinking about it all medium melee (orcs, biguns, ghouls, skeles, swordsmen, merc, halberdiers) could use a slight increase to promote a bits more unit type diversity.

The "Standardizing" of Ogres is what happens when things are Symmetric.
You can choose either Ogres or Elf Runners (their gold cost equivalent in Humans).

If I increase Ogres heads, the same I would have to similar with Spiders (their obv equivalent GS), but the power of them is to make the sneaky micro moves on battlefield, while big forces collide. With their current number they cant wipe out an army, but cant cost much more... 3/3 Monster Squad = 16/16 Cavalry >>> You choose.



Regiments underpriced: Do you mean Infantry too cheap? Its the base of a Standard Army.
1 Infantry will occupy a slot. In my armies I did combine weak-medium infantries. But you know you will have some extra gold at the end, which can be used for: buying Items, replacing Infantries for Other kind of Troops.

I ll tell you that I lost with Infantry Spam vs Olly who had less Regiments but Elite type: I had experienced Ghouls, Zombies, Skeletons, vs 2 Wights, 2 Mummies. I had Experienced Number, he Experienced Quality and won for that.

That battle made me thing that we always need to combine several elements, lack of magic - ranged attack - fear flank attack (monsters), becomes your doom. The Spam Infantry works better if you + Horn of Urgok (only with 9k possible).

In few words, you will need type diversity if you want to win. Look at the Catapults, strong Wizard, good Ranged, Mini terror Squads, etc. That cheap Infantry is just Infantry. MANY MANY times, they die stomped because of a Lcheck fail... "There you have your gold, massacred in the floor".



Tell me if I you both can understand my points of view. I hope my arguments were enough clear.


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: Jeronimo on August 02, 2010, 04:46:47 AM
After re-reading FO numbers and its performances, so far I decided:

1) Banner of Wrath from 650 to 600.
2) Mummies from 1080-1260-1440 to 1080-1200-1380.

Explanation 1: Alavet did combine Staff of Osiris + Banner of Wrath... and did kinda fail.
Anyway we see BoW is like a "Celestial Sword at distance", you need luck to kill 2-3 units, it works better if rays are concentrated to 1 regiment, which will happen only at 3k armies or final moments of battle.
If Celestial Sword is at 200gc... Banner of Wrath will be at 600gc, its triple cost.

Explanation 2: Mummies already expensive. Evolutions passed from +180+180 to +120+180, like the Wights, now both really good + Defiance. You decice who will have the extra levels.


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: alavet on August 02, 2010, 06:48:58 AM
you need to rework Wraights compeltely. Darkmancer suggested decrease them in cost futher, and possibly add up in heads, i suggest to make them 6-9 heads, +2WS +1S, remove "die when routing" flag and keep the cost (or increase a little)

also, yes, osiris gettign less usefull at 7k+ armies, making me not wish to use it, same goes to amost swords. i udnerstand you can't adjust price for items reagrding of gold limit, but still it's an option to issue diffirient englre.exe for diffirient gold limit maybe.


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: Jeronimo on August 02, 2010, 10:42:28 AM
Starting this reply, I wont make several Engrels due to is like a Standard Dark Omen, just you know that some Items become less effective with different Gold sizes, such as Defiance no useful at 3k Army while Wrath yes.

New decisions:

3) Ice Mage from 600-900-1200 to 600-900-1080.
4) Wraiths from 900 to 840.

Explanation 3: I already knew this but forgot to make something respect it. The Ice mage starts with 4 Spells in L1, then 5 Spells in L2, but in L3 replaces 1 spell for another stronger... which means again having 5 Spells.
Book of Ashur gives him a 6th Spell so is OK, but the +300gc everyone has in each advanced level means having 1 extra Spell... now for Ice Mage the replacement of a weaker spell will mean +180 instead of +300. ;)

Explanation 4: Damn damn damn! Wraiths have L6 and Mov 5 + "unim by diff terrain". Also 2 double hand-weapon attacks, causing terror, projectil immunity... A perfect unit which easily breaks, what a problem!

At 840gc they cost the same as 3/3 Trolls (also with L6)... Its a matter of comparison with the "Elite regiments from other Races". Wraiths with their Mov 5 and etc, should be for flanking attacks or siege machine/ranged persecution, well seen in my battles, making them fight front to front is... suicide (rout in a time), also is recommended to attack "small strong" regiments, such as the Monsters to win them in Lcheck due to 2 attacks+Terror (6 units).

Its the way we use it, taking their true power into account they are still 1 great regiment (not good for massing).
My brother once had 3 Wraiths and beleive me... he won because blocked my fast regiments, and then used Wraiths together to attack my regiments 1 by 1.
Just imagine 12 or 18 wraiths attacking 1 same regiment without "fear imm"

They allow the Skeletons + Wraith combos.
+ Archers: you shoot your Wraiths in melee, so enemy takes Checks from Wraith terror, and enemy Arrows.
+ Infantry: Burble tactic: Send Wraiths first (with MOV 5 they will in most cases charge first), then send 32/32 Skeleton Infantry behind Wraiths and charge. Result: 6 Wraiths fighting and  Rear-Flank  protected by many Skeletons. It will be impossible to break Wraiths from enemy charges.

They allow the Wraith Defence tactic: I have used sometimes the 6/6 Wraiths like a Wall for Mage-Catapult (1 single unit), here they can absorbe attacks from Pistoliers, Crossbowen, Cannons, Ballistas in advanced positions, mainly when battlefield is open (few obstacles).


Come on guys, after reading this stuff, do you still want Wraiths to be just like "another strong melee fighter"?

The number 6/6 is thinking that Swords kill them just 1 by 1 (Commander inflicts the damage) so its in fact very difficult to see your Comm in a good position striking Wraiths with his Sword.
Using a Mage to kill 6 units that move fast (Mov 5), is another pain in the ass.
The best way of course, we all know it, making them run... but Burble tactic perhaps will stop you.

NOTE: Wraiths odds of running dramatically increase if they "are charged", you know they will lose a combat round almost immediatly. The Mov 5 upgrade helps them to be the "chargers"...


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: Darkmancer on August 02, 2010, 10:57:06 AM
Me and alavet are talking about wights not wraiths.........

Thinking about it I don't think anybodybody used skele archers.  Maybe increase no units to 28 or 32? (or decrease cost)

PS could you reduce dwarves from 32 -> 28.  They still a large regiment but will be easier to move and they won't take as long to kill off if they get BOD.


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: Jeronimo on August 02, 2010, 12:48:25 PM
About Alavet's post: Didnt you read that he suggested increase heads from 6 to 9, its obviously Wraiths.
Alavet also misunderstood your post, thinking you aimed Wraiths as well... :P

I know you still compare Wights with Skeletons Warriors... Wights arent part of the CORE, they are especial.
Dont know if you read the document, (sure not), but the Wights have L10 instead of L8, and believe me that being 16/16 with 3 wounds each one + Wight Blade, makes them a strong candidate for Defiance (like TOP Ghouls or Mummies).

At same 720gc can be compared with the 16/16 Skeleton Horsemen: Wights or Skeleton Horsemen?
In the uploaded videos of July Tournament, you can appreciate Olly's Wights playing havoc with my UD Army.

Skeletons Archers are fine, I didnt buy them, and was a really bad decision. I needed them.

Dwarves are OK: 960 + 700 = 1660 > Lots of gold, I know my bro was the one who make you write that suggestion now, and the main reason of their long life was due to Shield of Ptolos.
Easier to move? Let them take some casualties while they move towards Goblin archers. :)


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: Darkmancer on August 02, 2010, 06:20:15 PM
Re-read alavet's post, he's refering to a game, I had against him earlier as I wanted to see how good wights were with leader 10.  I sent a pure army of wights against his orcs, the wights fell apart.

Afterwards we discussed what could be done to improve wights he suggested reducing the number of soldiers, and improving they're stats basically making them unbreakable mummies (with worse stats).

I suggested a few more units (2 or 4) to make use of fear (auto break when you out number) and a cost decrease.

You mention the game against olly now think would the results have been different if he'd had 2 x 32 skeletons instead?  I suspect not.

-
Skele Archers you forget how rubbish they are , slow reload and can't hit shit, I guarentie they will let you down :)
-
Dwarves - - 4 units wouldn't have changed what happened in that game, shield of ptolos doesnt explain they're magical and melee immunity does it :P.  4 units doesnt make a difference in combat as its when they route when they take 90% of casulties it's only when they're banner'd up it'll change anything.


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: alavet on August 02, 2010, 07:53:24 PM
really i was talking about witghts.  yes i think skelliesarcher could be deecreased i ncost, hoveweri believe their stats close to standard skelies, so there should be diffirience still.
por perhars rework unit to make it better BS skill? could work

as for dwarves i agree making it 28 could help, cause they're rather strong atm for their price. (no brainer for defensive armies)

Quote
+ Infantry: Burble tactic: Send Wraiths first (with MOV 5 they will in most cases charge first), then send 32/32 Skeleton Infantry behind Wraiths and charge. Result: 6 Wraiths fighting and  Rear-Flank  protected by many Skeletons. It will be impossible to break Wraiths from enemy charges.
yes thanks for the tip! thats really work.... mostly in theory, though

in fact their LS makes them lose vs and BOD or unbreakable regiment almost always and soemtimes vs outnumbered crowds like i guess dwarves or anythign else.


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: lordbraprus on August 03, 2010, 01:04:00 AM
LOL the burble tactic was my idea , i teached it to jeronimo :P

LETS CALL wights WI, and wraiths WR , to avoid missunderstanding, i confuse them too.


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: Jeronimo on August 03, 2010, 10:15:19 AM
Skele Archers you forget how rubbish they are , slow reload and can't hit shit, I guarentie they will let you down :)

First of all... I'm Jeronimo. I never neglect features or numbers im reorganizing. (I obv know they have BS 2).
Second, more respect for my friends, the Skeleton archers. Pay attention to my AVATAR! :D

New decisions:

5) Elf Glade runners from 660-1260 to 720-1200.
6) Skeleton Warriors from 360-420-540 to 420-480-600.

Explanation 5: Alavet already talked about this before, they are preety good at Basic, 20/20 fast anti-GS regiment, but the last evolution was too high for the fact they only end with 2 shields (light armor).
So to sum up, their evolution passed from  660 (120+180+300) 1260 to 720 (120+120+240) 1200

Explanation 6: Yes, I agree Skeleton Warriors are good enough (32 units unbreakable), and everyone prefers them instead of archers. Furthermore I found in my thoughts, that they were underpriced in relation with Orc boyz at basic (360gc being 26), so the Skeletons Warriors should have been (420gc being 32), you see the +60 gold due to having +6 units, not hard maths. ;)


About the other requests, I considered them for some hours, recalculated things and I must say no.

Compare Wights price with any of the monsters, cavalry, ranged regiments. Attacking front to front vs numerous Infantry is the worst use you can give them (unless Defiance, and beleive me they will resist a very lot, more than mummies).

Dwarves are OK too, if they were 26/26, their cost would be 420, same as the 26/26 Mercenary Infantry.
The dwarves at 32/32 are a feature that allows playing them vs 32/32 goblins (they hate each other, and the main intention is to have both fighting togeter, a really EPIC moment, such as White Grail vs BGK).

Thanks for the feedback. :)


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: alavet on September 13, 2010, 07:52:47 PM
:-)


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: Jeronimo on September 19, 2010, 07:57:24 AM
<download link removed on author's request>


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: Jeronimo on March 26, 2011, 04:15:23 PM
In the first Post of this thread, there is a direct link named: Download

It sends you to the wiki page of Fair Omen (where is the updated Link and some info for new members).


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: kilowic on July 24, 2011, 05:40:33 PM
Hi :)
I just have one question. I enjoy fair omen with my father and we play nice battles. Everything works fine except that horn of urgok cost 720 gc :/ I tried to copy files from Fair Omen many times in diffrent ways but its still 720 gc. Whats wrong ?


Well I checked all the items are with old prices. Anyone know how to help me ?


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: alavet on July 24, 2011, 06:53:42 PM
you need to replace your folder PRG_ENG
should be called like that.

basically, everything you need as far as I understand, is to replace your Engrel.exe file (make sure to have backup files)


but to be honest, horn of Ugrok is very tricky item - mainly because it bugs game very much. I expereinced tonns of disconenctions due of it usage. So in our network battles we almsot never use it.


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: kilowic on July 24, 2011, 07:34:40 PM
Thank you very much now everything is perfect
:)


My mistake was I didn't put engrel file to the PRG folder - just in folder of the game. That's why it didn't worked well.

Thank you very much :) 


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: alavet on July 25, 2011, 06:52:03 PM
always nice to help fellow Dark Omen fans!

btw how old are you and you father? :-)


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: kilowic on July 26, 2011, 04:25:10 PM
I'm 20 and my father is 45 ;) when I was small kid I was watching him playin DO. He always tried to complite missions without losing any man and he made many of them like that :D

But in multiplayer he lack fast reactions. He always preferer ranged units and i noticed that in multi they are rather waste of money but sometimes he beats me so maybe I'm wrong ;)

Cheers


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: Christophbs on October 23, 2011, 11:56:45 PM
It would seem the download link is missing.  Is there anywhere else to look?


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: kilowic on October 24, 2011, 11:59:08 AM
In the first Post of this thread, there is a direct link named: Download

It sends you to the wiki page of Fair Omen (where is the updated Link and some info for new members).


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: kilowic on October 24, 2011, 11:59:53 AM
Reading doesn't hurt at all :D


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: Christophbs on October 24, 2011, 06:36:19 PM
Just try downloading it.  ;)


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: olly on October 24, 2011, 06:40:27 PM
Jeronimo updated Fair Omen last Saturday, for our latest Conquest Tournament, so I have updated the link now. Thanks for letting us know.

:)


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: Christophbs on October 24, 2011, 07:29:28 PM
No problems.  :D


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: kilowic on October 24, 2011, 07:56:06 PM
Ok I'm sorry :) My fault.


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: Christophbs on October 28, 2011, 05:38:10 AM
Is there a maximum number of types of units allowed in the game total that needs to be split up amongst the armies in multilayer? An example is that there is there is no knights of the realm any more, they were replaced by Grail Knights. Does that mean all the slots are filled and things need to be removed before something is added?

I am also curious why there is no Rune Fang and Mork banner in in multi-player?


Title: Re: Fair Omen 2010
Post by: Jeronimo on October 28, 2011, 05:54:57 AM
Is there a maximum number of types of units allowed in the game total that needs to be split up amongst the armies in multilayer? An example is that there is there is no knights of the realm any more, they were replaced by Grail Knights. Does that mean all the slots are filled and things need to be removed before something is added?

I am also curious why there is no Rune Fang and Mork banner in in multi-player?

I replaced Knights of Realm because are exactly the same than Mercenary Cavalry (expect -1 Initiative).
To make multiplayer more variated, I put the Grail Knights which are naturally immune to fear and have better stats.

All Items should appear, racial only with racial will appear, like Runefang if you are in the HUMANS book roster.