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Title: FACTIONS Post by: DjLeBomb on April 20, 2009, 06:31:11 AM ;D Yep! The Factions have arrived! http://wiki.dark-omen.org/do/DO/Rules/Factions (http://wiki.dark-omen.org/do/DO/Rules/Factions)
Well, it was on December i think ::), that i show to Bembe some house rules that sometimes my friends and i use to play with. Obviously it was only to collaborate with the creation of another rules because that first version of the Factions was not for competition. Then he told me to check out the old DOST rules and try to expand the thing. So, i took two of my friends that are DO players ;) ;) and we started to make drafts and brainstormings and to play boring testing matches :P :P :P, but without beign too stricts with the times as you can see ;D. Maybe is for that reason that later only one of my friends remained at my side in this little quest :'(. And finally here we are and through a pattern mix of some fantasy thematic, the armylists of the 7° edition of the WHFantasy Tabletop game, another rules (like the DOST and the 3000/10), a lot of game testing, something near to a common sense, and too much coffee, cookies, smoke and beer :P...this rules where created :D. We really hope that they serve you to have fun :), and if not you can always use it to help you create better ones ;). Special thanks to the creators of the DOST, wherever they are, to the creators of the 3000/5000, to all of you that had battle with me on the tournys, to Mikademus for the wiki post hint, to Olly and his Ogre+Defiance combo revelation that help me to find the place to the damn hard BoDefiance, and to all of you that help to make this community an amazing virtual place :D. Very Special thanks to Bembelimen for all the support, hints and advices and for his Zengentle kind of patience with our lazyness on the development :P. And obviously to my great and close friend Lemons (is his nickname in the real life) for all ;D. He is not even suscribed to the page only because he knows english as much as i know of biomechanic ??? , but i got his compromise that, if the rules are well received he is gonna sign in and at least say hello :), but if the community low the finger... then he left me alone with the lions :o!! can'u believe it >:(?! p.d.: The SFR are ready but the damn f*%&# wiki took 6 hours >:( >:( >:(!! of my sunday and in 4 hours i have to get up and go to work so :'(, i will post them tomorrow, bye folks! Title: Re: FACTIONS Post by: Flak on April 20, 2009, 09:41:50 AM Ive just had a quick read and it looks interesting and alot of hard work has been put in to it that is very clear
hehe you bet these posting things take time, took me 3 days to post the dwarf campaign hehe ;D Title: Re: FACTIONS Post by: alavet on April 20, 2009, 09:48:33 AM looks interestign but unfrtunately i dont like too small armies
and seems that grail would be overpowered cause you may get another armies to your list and what is HC-CHA and other things.. Title: Re: FACTIONS Post by: Grend on April 20, 2009, 05:25:01 PM Alliance faction with Elfs and Banner of Wrath seems a bit OP?
Title: Re: FACTIONS Post by: Mikademus on April 20, 2009, 05:33:06 PM There are too few emoticons in your post, otherwise it seems like a solid and fun rule set!
Title: Re: FACTIONS Post by: DjLeBomb on April 21, 2009, 07:13:36 AM Done, here are the first Special Rules, without too many edition, i'm sick of the wiki for sometime :P! more rules can come later.
http://wiki.dark-omen.org/do/DO/Rules/Factions/Special_Factions_Rules_(SFR) (http://wiki.dark-omen.org/do/DO/Rules/Factions/Special_Factions_Rules_(SFR)) Title: Re: FACTIONS Post by: bembelimen on April 21, 2009, 08:53:59 PM Very good work DjLeBomb
It looks fantastic, but to say more words about it, I/we have to test it first; find all complex possibilities :) So I hope you're patient^^ Title: Re: FACTIONS Post by: Ghabry on April 21, 2009, 09:10:58 PM Made a fight vs. bembelimen (Goblins vs. Vampires):
Was a fast and funny fight :D (guess before watching the video who will win ^^) Regiments: Ghabry:
bembelimen:
Dark Omen Multiplayer - vs. bembelimen - The Empire - 3k/Factions (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAoBTSeKt14#ws-lq-lq2-hq-vhq-hd) (and no discussions if it would be maybe better to use archers instead... thx) Title: Re: FACTIONS Post by: DjLeBomb on April 22, 2009, 12:18:49 AM ;D LOL great test guys! you took the 2 more controversial Factions and put them to a fight, that is the best and more respectful way to make an opinion in this matter, i'm very grateful and very happy to know that u like them.
Even we have made many tests and try to reduce the unbalance and/or conflicts to the minimum, we know that something has surely sneak from us, so the critics are most than welcome, but i hope that they try to improve or expand the rules and not to bury them. Anyway we are not going to discuss the creation of a law, so we don't have to be totally politics, but a little of respect for the efforts at least will be fine ;). Again tx for all the opinions. Back to the point, the truth is the truth, the Black its very very hard, but i know that is not imba. The discussion its not if Warriors or Archers, the thing with the Goblin army is pay MUCH more attention to the Scorps and the Trolls, and obviously to the Fanatics. Usually in our tests we find that the best strategy with the Goblins, was one: go ahead and spread the chaos. How? Terror from the insects+Terror from the Trolls+Many Fanatics on the vanguard+Horn of Urgok. The Humans and Greenskins have many difficulties dealing with this combo, and thats ONE of the reasons for why we don't put the Staff of Osiris or some magic item that could help with the terrible exception that is the Black Grial or some resistance from others undeads. Last but not least, if someone wants to play a match to test or just for fun with the rules just send me a PM, and we arrange the battle 8)! Title: Re: FACTIONS Post by: olly on April 22, 2009, 12:50:23 AM The Honour and Artillary Codes, are my Favourites, very nice concepts.
:) Title: Re: FACTIONS Post by: Ghabry on April 22, 2009, 03:15:24 PM Well, we made a rematch (Goblins vs. Vampires again) with a different Goblin-Army and an interesting result. (and the proof that goblins are to dump to regroup and to defeat ghouls)
My Army:
Dark Omen Multiplayer - vs. bembelimen - The Empire - 3k/Factions (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grDHyFCez_Y#hd) Title: Re: FACTIONS Post by: Flak on April 22, 2009, 08:17:04 PM hehe thats not fair, 2 whole goblin regiments leaving the battle, despite their valiant effort to kill all the grails
Title: Re: FACTIONS Post by: Mikademus on April 25, 2009, 12:56:38 AM Enjoyed the last video! Didn't the game manual say that "intentionally flee is a dangerous tactics"?
Title: Re: FACTIONS Post by: alavet on April 28, 2009, 06:43:14 AM ok so ive played it with flak 3 times and my first intention that: yes, its interested and fresh but i dont think it will be usefull "in a long run".
i mean, there is no much tactic you may use in this ruleset. i mean, every faction only have 6-7 units, and there is few "core" units in each faction, which means that close to EVERYONE will use them. for example NECROMANCERS will usually have at least 1 or 2 mummies + necromancer + some zombies; ALLIANCE will always only use elves and some blocking units; VAMPIRES will always have a vampire and so on.. i mean yes now it seems good but after few simulations most armies of each factions will be the same. and after you will play each faction against each, battles will become boring, cause except enemy's faction you alway will know his army. just my intention. Title: Re: FACTIONS Post by: Ghabry on April 28, 2009, 03:12:17 PM I made 2 fights against Flak yesterday (no Videos, sorry :P) on the Goblin Camp Map.
He used his Alliance Army: He told me that he trained with fights vs. Alavet so the army is more strong then usual (and an extra item -> Staff of Osiris).
In the first fight I used NECROMANCER:
They had no change against them, Mummies routed (because they are useless without Defiance ;)) and Wraiths too. Necro and Catapult died because of Archers. Second fight was more interesting with VAMPIRES (without Vampire *g*):
And I don't want to know a fight with GOBLINS would be against such an army ;). As a conclusion I would say that some Races are just too strong. I don't understand e.g. why the already really strong ALLIANCE has Items like Banner of Wrath or Ptolos. We need more testing for this. Because Flaks army was trained I can't say if a fight with a new bought army would have another result. But I guess that the Mummies would still have a hard live because of Charge from Behind ;) (and my VAMPIRES army should have won) Title: Re: FACTIONS Post by: WarpGhost on April 29, 2009, 01:26:05 PM Minor background point but Ptolos is actually a very fluffy item for the Wood Elves, as the 6th edition Wood Elf interim list was the last time that magic item appeared in TT Warhammer. But Staff/Banner arent any more fluffy for them and indeed, as pointed out, downright bad ideas because they are so powerful in an already powerful list.
Title: Re: FACTIONS Post by: ZzUu on April 29, 2009, 01:48:26 PM
Title: Re: FACTIONS Post by: DjLeBomb on April 30, 2009, 05:35:14 AM ;D HAHA lol this all brainstorming it's too much for me (and with all i mean all the topics and posts on the forum lol), let's see what i can answer here...
-To Alavet: As i wrote on the Main Idea of the ruleset it's my belief that with less units to choose from u have to improve your tactics on the build of your army and on the battlefield. Another factor that goes in this way is the one you mention, since your opponent (as you) have a limited amount of units to choose from, u can elaborate a better strategy that the one we made when we try to deal with all the units of a race, but (again) since u also have this "advantage", is on the battlefield that the two supposed perfect armys will clash, and then only the real tactics will gave you the victory. Also, the ruleset was very inspired on the Tabletop rules, and there, all the Armys have a limited number of units, limited more by some rules like the ones that Mika was putting on the 9000/30 http://wiki.dark-omen.org/do/DO/Rules/9000/30 (http://wiki.dark-omen.org/do/DO/Rules/9000/30), and yes usually some core units will be present in most of the Factions, but you don't have 3 Factions, u have 7, so the diversity is assured, and of course, the examples that you give are not the only ones that u can make and use. I understand that u don't like the rules and get boring with them, but i also understand that u have put aside your tastes and beliefs and have started to work in a "refined" version called Nations, so i think that all the problem is almost resolved, with the speed, manpower and passion that you put to your posts i think that those rules are going to be ready in a week, so we all look forward to it, i'm proud that at least these rules they served you, as a base of course...and i appreciate your intention. -To Ghabry: All the post is great, and i really appreciate all the testings, but, i don't understand the meaning of these sentence: Quote As a conclusion I would say that some Races are just too strong. ???The possible reasons that i can imagine by now are 2: - 1: You have past the line on the "Restrictions" when it said "Both Players creates a 3000 army" If that the case then i repeat: I have rack my brains out to make a 3000 points rule!! it's not a 5000/7000/9000 ruleset! as u can imagine take this to that amount of points it's going to be another quest, u have this battle as a proof and also the example of the 5000/15 post where , after some months, still they discuss about the right points to the Skeletons :P! - 2: Since it's hard to me to believe that both of u have past that restriction, i must understand that u get so exciting with the ruleset that u have go far and tested them for 5000 and for a "Survival Mode" or something like that. So if that's the case, it's just great! but i must return to the point 1: these ruleset it's not tested for more than 5000 points. So damn yes, that armys are way too strong, but; 4 items in one army? Staff of Osiris on the Alliance?! Black Grail with all that back up?!! Yep, these are not Factions armys. And about the Survival, Flak have told me to make something like that with the Factions, and i obviously said yes!...but thats all! i have no idea how the ruleset will react to an endurance run, and for what we have sought with these tests seems that not too good :( , but i think that is the same with the 3000, the 5000 or with no rule, so that's also why i want to participate in the Survival tourny, to find out how to make this kind of game work, because it will be great. The point of the Ptolos and BoW on the Alliance is this: Threat this Faction almost like the High Elf Army on the tabletop version; it's a powerful army, but very, very expensive. Have u noticed that any unit costs lower than 525 gold coins? i ahve to give these army something powerful and cheap because if not they real power it's hard to achieve, and this is where the BoW enter. And since they are powerful but very expensive, u have watch very well for every unit, and one of these units...are the Dwarfs. And the dwarfs on the Multi, with their speed, almost sucks, and this is where the Ptolos enter, even u can use it also for improve the armour of some elves. But if you still think they are very powerfull, this is where the ZzUu post enter :) -To ZzUu: i think u got one point there Z, and i see u got the formula to the Goblins. As i post earlier, the Humans and Greenskins have many problems with the Gobs combinations, but as with the Black Grail, they are not imba. Still some future revisions colud be made with the amount of insects, what u propouse? -And to Warp: Man, i have not idea what are u talking, "Fluffy"? like the biscuit cakes with milk? haha ;D lol ,my english is real bad :-[ , i'm sorry, but i really want to know your point so, another words can be used ???? Ok, i wanted to post in other topics but i'm sleepy and have to work, so Champions, tx a lot for all your support and entusiasm with the ruleset and i hope to battle with all of you with the Factions someday, wait for your replies! Bye ;)! Title: Re: FACTIONS Post by: alavet on April 30, 2009, 06:31:41 AM for some reasons i pretty like your posts with so many smiles in it, lol
yeah i and flak tested you army with 5k points "by default" or at least i hope so, cause i def used 5k army and if he pwnd me with 3k army then... lol about "endurance" run - i dont like the idea of endurance much, cause this means that virtually every "endurance" army will include archers and mage and so on, which cuts a lot of strategies and tactics out. dont know what to say else, except that we possibly should change some points of FACTIONS for 5k games, even tho i dont know how, cause played very little in that. hopefully ill play more at this month.. Title: Re: FACTIONS Post by: Ghabry on April 30, 2009, 09:00:12 AM It was a 3k ruleset? oops, my fault, had totally forgotten this :D.
sry djlebomb ;) Title: Re: FACTIONS Post by: Flak on April 30, 2009, 10:10:27 AM lol yes its 3000 you 2 knuckleheads :o ;D
so this means my poor 3000 army has been struggling to fight 5000 armies I think you are right DJ in the idea that smaller army pool's should improve the unit knowledge and specific tactics. It will also break up some of the strong racial armies and new thinking is a must By no means am i tryn to change your Factions with the other ruleset, Factions is a battle ruleset what ive been messing with is a survival ruleset with more specific sides like you have and i have tested how faction armies do if they where to fight more battles and it has given me a good idea of how armies are effected by heavy losses, the kind we often see in multiplayer. ;) I know that bembelimen is very keep to use Factions in the May tournament. Title: Re: FACTIONS Post by: alavet on April 30, 2009, 01:50:35 PM thats mainly shows how deep elves are disbalanced (or how good Flak in cheating :D:D)
Title: Re: FACTIONS Post by: Flak on April 30, 2009, 02:49:43 PM Well i spose it was only the 1st battle that i had a real 3000, the rest of the battles i had the money and XP earned in the previous battles
Title: Re: FACTIONS Post by: WarpGhost on April 30, 2009, 04:29:18 PM Quote -And to Warp: Man, i have not idea what are u talking, "Fluffy"? like the biscuit cakes with milk? haha Grin lol ,my english is real bad Embarrassed , i'm sorry, but i really want to know your point so, another words can be used Huh? 'Fluff' is a slang term used in Warhammer groups to mean 'background material' and 'setting' and stuff like that. If something is 'fluffy' then it fits very well into the established world of Warhammer.Title: Re: FACTIONS Post by: bembelimen on May 02, 2009, 01:13:30 AM I think the most "problem" for all player are the 3 elves archer, perhaps you (DJLeBomb) could explain why there are 3 or decrease them to 2 (imho 2 archers shouldn't be a problem at all) So everyone is happy :)
At all I think this ruleset deserves a try in the next tournament, then we'll see if it is as "imba" as some people think :P Title: Re: FACTIONS Post by: alavet on May 02, 2009, 03:58:46 PM i think elves should be in x1 quantity as max, having another extremely good regiments at this faction.
also we possibly need to boost up necromancers - this faction seems to weak. moomies too slow and coward Title: Re: FACTIONS Post by: Flak on May 02, 2009, 04:12:22 PM 2 wood elf archers is fair, the Alliance Faction already have the most expensive units and can only get around 4-5 units anyway.
Title: Re: FACTIONS Post by: Ghabry on May 02, 2009, 04:48:55 PM Alavet and me compared our ALLIANCE Army yesterday and we both had the exact same ones:
3 Wood Elf Archers 2 Glade Guards (+Banner of Wrath) Don't forget that Elf archers are as good in close combat as glade guards. So even if you can reach them you have a hard fight against them. Title: Re: FACTIONS Post by: tovertrut on May 07, 2009, 07:05:32 PM im not to big of a fan of goblin factions...they win vs empire and orcs easely because of their horn and r underpowered against some undead amrys and flaglants...
the horn rly takes alot of the fun out of fighting against em(at least for me it does) i find that with the horn they are overpowered although i also see how without the horn they would be underpowered... Title: FACTIONS (2° Edition) Post by: DjLeBomb on June 24, 2009, 12:47:10 AM 8) People!
I have change one thing on the Alliance faction: Wood Elves Archers now have a 2 maximum of units, instead of 3. The reason as come from the result on the May tournament and from some testing games, but it's not for the normal performance of this Faction; the reason for the change it's one tactic that Bembelimen as being using (totally legal please don't think wrong!! :P ), but that i haven't see it before :o , i will make a topic explaining this with videos when i have time but basically the idea is: Don't leave your fire units (Archers, Crossbowmen, pistolliers, and spellcasters, NO cannon, mortar,etc.) be quiet if your units are in melee; face them in a way that the projectile goes straight from the fire unit, to the enemy unit involved in close combat. The unit is going to cramble in pieces withouth other option that force a retreat or die in the deadly rain :'(. Maybe some of you have notice this effective way of using missils but i have battle with several of you and Bembe was the only one that i can remember to use it, and in a very efective way 8)! i must say that i'm practicing this technique for the nex fights ;D haha You can see an example of this on the video posted by Ghabry on the May tourny, the Semifinal betwen him and Bembe; look how devastating is the Elven Archer unit from the right of the screen, once it get free from the Skeleton Cavalry :o. But, as i repeat, the Elves are not the only one that can use well this tactic, i have even test it with great succes on the Flak Campaign with the Ice Mage against the terrific Golems; meanwhile they where hitting some unit, i cast Ice Shards and they where all cold ice :D! Ok, thats it for now, baez. Title: Re: FACTIONS Post by: Kuja on June 27, 2009, 01:15:07 PM I like the rules, The games should be more balanced with this ruleset. However i'm not a big fan of the Alliance faction having ptholos as a shield.
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