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Author Topic: Question about the Remake project  (Read 4964 times)
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EvgenS
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« on: December 15, 2015, 12:31:25 PM »

First of all many thanks to devs of mods. They are really fun and helped me to recall good old times when I played SOTHR and DO.

I found couple of threads about development of WARTBED separate engine if I understood correct and another idea to develop remake in Unity and I am wondering about their state. Are both projects cancelled or there is still a team or persons who are willing to develop the remake?
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olly
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« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2015, 02:37:45 PM »

Hi and Welcome! Unfortunately Mikademus is no longer around to complete his WARTBED and same for all the other remake attempts. Our member Crash was the last to use Mikademus' code and created his own XNA remake that could display maps and have Troops moving around the map but required AI functions and everything else but was a great attempt. His DOST Battle Editor attempt was also amazing but needs completing but I use it to generate height maps from new map meshes i make in Blender.

Let us know if you intend to create a remake, as can help. 

Smiley
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EvgenS
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« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2015, 06:03:02 PM »

Thanks for your prompt reply. It is a pity to hear about the project.

I have not planned to create a remake of Dark Omen before but I will consider your offer Smiley
It is really a shame that there is still no sequel to such a prime wargame.

It seems that your mistake was to build everything around one person. In my opinion, it would be better to choose something from existing engines, e.g. Unity but I noticed that your started your project long ago may be that was the reason.

Did you keep design document or wiki for your project?
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olly
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« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2015, 08:30:37 PM »

Yeah real shame there's never been a remake but the Total Warhammer game will certainly be better than Mark of Chaos/Battle March. I haven't the programming ability to create a remake project, compared with the others who have tried but I can help with the 3d/2d stuff and engine mechanics. Sadly don't have any of their design documents but there is some Wiki info.

http://wiki.dark-omen.org/do/Special:AllPages

Leopotam started with Unity but found it wouldn't provide the necessary amount of calls required, as far as I could understand to have 3d models, so would need to be 2d sprites and he does know Unity very well. Same for Alex Khvorov who also used Unity later on. Mikademus used Ogre after trying Illerlicht that also had limitations, Darkmancer tried XNA and so did Crash a few years later (I've got his source code and he got the furthest as based on Mikademus' work) and Jim used Adobe Air.

The best design document I have read is this Shadow of the Horned rat remake that includes source code. 

http://forum.dark-omen.org/tactical-wargaming-and-other-warhammer-games/remake-of-warhammer-shadow-of-the-horned-rat-t1245.0.html

What I really want is 4v4 multiplayer or more and have considered using Wireshark to intercept the network traffic and divert it off to other clients etc.. as sounds like we can emulate packets being sent etc.. so would be great to have 39 players as that's the current maximum troops deployable in multiplayer.

Smiley

 
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Ghabry
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« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2015, 12:09:03 PM »

I hope there will be a nice remake someday Smiley

No, Olly, don't get too happy. I don't have any secret project running.
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EvgenS
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« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2015, 01:02:33 PM »

Thank you for summing this up!
I am waiting for TW Warhammer myself and based on it's battle previews it is already clear that it could be as fun as other TW series but unfortunately it differs from SOTHR and DO battles.

May be 3D was a Unity issue at that time but now Unity as well as other free engines (Unreal 4) could be a much easier choice for indie team then development of your own engine. The choice also depends on your project goals of course.

4 vs 4 battles sounds cool but MOBA feature is not what made SOTHR and DO so unique, is it?
What I really want is to see the SPIRITUAL SUCCESSOR of Dark Omen. If short but more precisely - Fantasy wargame with spectacular battles focused on regiment micromanagement with realistic physics and elements like morale, flanking, line of sight etc... and ofc magic (how could I forget) 
singleplayer? multiplayer? - secondary issue
real-time? turn-based? - secondary issue
Even Warhammer FB setting is irrelevant.
Basically, the main goal is to keep original and unique battle mechanic with some slight improvements and of course improved visuals and physics.

IMO, described task would be already a solid challenge for indie team and you should be careful with adding new features like 4 vs 4 multiplayer or you would risk making from it a neverending project.  

A proper way to achieve described task could be the following steps:
1. Outline unique and core pillars of desired game (MOBA is not necessary a core especially when you have Arena TW to compete with)
2. Prepare design document of good prototype (it could be just one battle but which reflects all core pillars of the game)
3. Gather indie team
4. Deliver well-made prototype
5. Go for crowdfunding

And based on result of crowdfunding it will be clear what other features can be added.  
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 01:38:37 PM by EvgenS » Logged
Ghabry
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« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2015, 01:22:02 PM »

Yeah 4vs4 would be nice to have but that should not be a goal for the beginning.

As you say it should be like Dark Omen with all it's strategic components (morale, flanking, line of sight) and co. ... and magic and magical items that are not too imba. You also don't need a campaign (yet). Just Skirmish mode and a nice unit editor -> Done.
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EvgenS
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« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2015, 01:49:46 PM »

Well noted. A Fantasy setting without magic is hardly imaginable.
By the way Ghabry, as I understand you have programming skills, so what would be your choice of engine for such Skirmish mode and why?
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Ghabry
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« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2015, 09:52:08 AM »

Well. I'm not very into game development but I evaluated some enginges (CryEngine, Unreal, Unity) a while ago. But usually I only contribute to open source projects which are usually using there own engine programmed via SDL2 for portability. The remake project by Mikademus used the Ogre engine. But this was before all the commercial engines got basicly free.
For a university project I used the Unreal Engine but I didn't liked it. Very bad documentation and if you want to write anything except shooters you can throw everything except the core away.
I would probably use Unity for this. No specific reason, any engine would work. I just think that the workflow with Unity is great and you have a nice script language (C#).
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DMJC
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« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2015, 08:43:07 AM »

I think remaking Dark Omen should be the main goal. Get the base engine working based on the map editor source code loading Dark Omen maps/campaigns. After that's done look at adding other stuff like 3d units. It doesn't seem like any of the remake projects have focused on a single goal. The project should also be on Github and have multiple contributors.
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olly
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« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2015, 01:48:04 AM »

We all agree that every person that is drawn here repeatedly, to play such an old game as Dark Omen, comes because there is sadly no other substitute that contains everything we love. Having worked with all those Talented people who have tried to remake Dark Omen projects, I can definitely say that our shared goals were to recreate just Dark Omen first, at the very least and anything else new was added to a wish list. Being good programmers they knew to concentrate on initial goals, such as creating maps and focussing on troop movements etc.. but it is a huge time consuming/frustrating (most of the time) slog of a project, that will last for over one year or two and really needs them to not have a full time job.

Yes it would be great to have had all these people around at the same time to collaborate with each other on Github etc.. but generally they have wanted to be the sole owner to repay their invested time and energy, which is perfectly understandable. (I always pledge my full humble services for free (2d/3d design/minor programming), to anyone who wants to make my dream come true of having a true remake, as I just want to play it rather than earn money from it, although it would be nice to have a cut.

Smiley


I personally haven't run a Kickstarter type project as it really requires a main programmer to take the lead and basically produce or organise other programmers to make a working demo for fans to play, before they will pledge money. Even then it requires abundant marketing and publicity (as sadly seen with Empryean Rule that will hopefully return for another try when the Greek economy recovers - what an amazing engine).  

Leopotam gave good advice which was to map out all the aspects of the game and then various talented programmers could pick their area of expertise, such as GUI or Sound or Shader programming. However, it still requires that initial programmer to layout all these sub sections and ensure they are produced correctly. I simply don't have the advanced games programming knowledge to lead this otherwise I would love to and if I ever win the lottery, then that will be my day job making such a game, by employing you all!

Any lead programmer will have a good head start by examining the code of the Shadow of The Horned Rat remake and then extending Crashes project further by adding AI and other key features. I can of course help to do this but generally we've all been busy modding the original Dark Omen game, that can thankfully now be extended to have new armies, maps and campaigns but evolved alongside the remake projects. As all gained knowledge of the original was incorporated into the current remake's engine or Map Editor.

Let us pray that another talented programmer wishes to recreate Dark Omen, as they know we await them with open arms and pledge our services.
  
Smiley  
« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 12:37:03 PM by olly » Logged

and back in Nuln, the ageing Graf Berhardt smiled his secret smile of pride whenever he heard the latest tales of his eldest son's ever growing chain of glorious victories -(sothr manual)
devast3d
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« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2016, 01:07:15 PM »

Hello Forum.

As most of you I came here because I love Dark Omen game. I have been playing this game for many many years and still enjoy it. Games which were released after DO in my opinion do not even come close to DO (this includes Mark of Chaos and TW Warhammer). So after finish the campaign once again I googled to find whether there are more things in DO universe probably made by the community. That's how I found this site.

I was surprised that there are so many mods available (and I only begin to discover how cool they are). Of course modding capabilities are limited and pretty cumbersome since we don't have any original sources (and I doubt we ever will).

Being a programmer myself with exeprience in game development and rendering I decided I have to do something with this. I saw in the wiki there were several attempts to write editors and even engines, but no completed projects unfortunately.

What I want to do in short: create replica of the Dark Omen as close as possible to the original game mechanics.

Here's slightly longer description. I want to use UE4 to program game mechanics using original art assets (at least for the beginning). Make the project open (keeping it somewhere on github). If things will go well, then extend the core mechanics with newer features and remaked art. What I'm not going to do is to write the engine/editor from scratch since this will take eternity and will eventually fail for sure.

In short about me: I'm 30 y.o. Have been worked with many game engines throught the carrier (including XNA, Ogre3d, Unity and lately Unreal Engine 4). Have C++ and C# knowledge, slight background in 3d modelling and 2d processing (3dsmax and Photoshop). Currently working in one of the world leading company connected to game development and hardware (so unfortunately I can't make this project my main job). I am not an artist, so I mostly uncapable of creating 2d, 3d art or music, however I understand the processes.

What I need for starters: someone who is capable of directing me to the basics of the game mechanics (probably by giving links to wiki or something, since I've only started to explore the website and there are tons of details). I've completed the game many times, but never thought about recreating it before, so I need structural explanation. We can then discuss further plan.

Meanwhile I will continue to explore the forum and wiki to get basic information to start working on the terrain since it looks like the first thing to do.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 01:14:08 PM by devast3d » Logged
olly
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« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2016, 02:19:21 PM »

Hi and welcome devast3d,

completely agree that no other game captures what makes Dark Omen so good. It's great to hear that you want to attempt a remake project and have the skills to achieve it. Please accepted all of our help and knowledge.

The best place to start is reading our wiki page ->

http://wiki.dark-omen.org/do/Special:AllPages

and pop into our chat channel to discuss further ->

Chat Channel

We can provide all the 3d models/art and please check out these earlier coding attempts  ->

https://www.dropbox.com/s/h3xfssr52q151hp/BestRemake.zip?dl=0

Smiley  

http://forum.dark-omen.org/tools-b28.0
« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 12:34:39 AM by olly » Logged

and back in Nuln, the ageing Graf Berhardt smiled his secret smile of pride whenever he heard the latest tales of his eldest son's ever growing chain of glorious victories -(sothr manual)
danopkt
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« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2017, 05:06:28 PM »

Thanks for the rundown olly!

I stumbled across this site because I have been looking for a spiritual successor to Dark Omen for ages, but nothing has ever quite hit the mark. I think you and I have a pretty similar take on what makes Dark Omen so great.

In my mind, it comes down to creating a game with meaningful battlefield tactics - things like formation, positioning, terrain, and flanking should really be the focus. I think one of the things that Dark Omen really gets right is that focus on the tactics. A lot of other games incorporate concepts like that (e.g. the Total War series), but they miss the mark from a tactics perspective because of the focus on grand strategy elements. In those types of games, good strategy (i.e. how many units can I build) will pretty much always trump good tactics (i.e. how well can I use the units I have), so it makes the tactical side far less important. I think focusing on a single campaign, with some unit customization in between battles, really lets the tactical side shine.

I've done game dev on the side, mostly on nights and weekend, for about a decade. Recently, I was lucky enough to be able to convince my boss to let me work less hours and devote more time to game dev while keeping a paycheck, so I've decided to use that time to take a crack at making a game in this vein. The game I've started working on isn't meant to be a straight remake of Dark Omen, but rather a spiritual successor. It draws some pretty heavy inspiration from Dark Omen, but I'm also incorporating some elements from other strategy gems I've come across (e.g. Sid Meier's Gettysburg) and some new gameplay elements that I think could create a really unique offering.

I noticed that the Dropbox link to the previous remake attempts is dead; is there any way I might be able to get a copy of that? I'm sure there's a lot I could learn by taking a look through the previous attempts, so that would be a huge help.

Any other tips or suggestions you have would be greatly appreciated! In the mean time, I'm going to start digging through the wiki to see what I can learn.
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olly
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« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2017, 05:29:20 PM »

Hi and welcome,

great summary of Dark Omen and exciting future plans. I've updated the download link but I would urge you to join in with the current remake project "Dark Omen Reborn" by Devast3d, especially now most of the legendary modders have rejoined to help.  

However, feel free to still join in and ask any questions, even if your own project takes a different direction, as a lot of discussions are all original Dark Omen based.

http://forum.dark-omen.org/general-suggestions/dark-omen-reborn-t1393.0.html

and our usual chat room

Dark Omen Chat Channel

Smiley
« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 06:36:30 PM by olly » Logged

and back in Nuln, the ageing Graf Berhardt smiled his secret smile of pride whenever he heard the latest tales of his eldest son's ever growing chain of glorious victories -(sothr manual)
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