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bembelimen
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« on: March 22, 2009, 09:11:48 PM »

This is the 5000/15 suggestions thread. Please post all your ideas. I/We will add them to the list.


Empire

NameLevelPoints
Mercenary CrossbowmenLevel 1
2
Imperial CannonLevel 1
3
Bright WizardLevel 1
2
Imperial HalberdiersLevel 1
1
Imperial BowmenLevel 1
2
FlagellantsLevel 1
3
Imperial MortarLevel 1
3
Mercenary OgresLevel 1
2
Mercenary SwordsmenLevel 1
2
Imperial GreatswordsLevel 1
1
Ice MageLevel 1
2
Mercenary CavalryLevel 1
3
PistoliersLevel 1
3
Knights of the RealmLevel 1
3
Dwarf WarriorsLevel 1
2
Wood Elf Glade GuardsLevel 1
2
Wood Elf ArchersLevel 1
4
TreemanLevel 1
4


Greenskins
NameLevelPoints
Night Goblin ArchersLevel 1
1
Night GoblinsLevel 1
1
Gigantic SpiderLevel 1
2
Giant ScorpionLevel 1
1
Night Goblin ShamanLevel 1
1
Orc Arrer BoyzLevel 1
1
Orc Boar BoyzLevel 1
2
Orc BoyzLevel 1
1
Orc Big'unsLevel 1
2
Orc Bolt ThrowerLevel 1
3
Orc Rock LobberLevel 1
4
Orc ShamanLevel 1
2
TrollLevel 1
2
Night Goblin Archers With FanaticsLevel 1
2
Night Goblins With FanaticsLevel 1
2


Undead
NameLevelPoints
VampireLevel 1
3
GhoulsLevel 1
1
MummiesLevel 1
6
NecromancerLevel 1
2
Screaming Skull CatapultLevel 1
3
Skeleton ArchersLevel 1
2
Skeleton HorsemenLevel 1
4
Skeleton WarriorsLevel 1
2
Black GrailLevel 1
10
WightsLevel 1
3
WraithsLevel 1
8
ZombiesLevel 1
1


Items
NamePoints
Horn of Urgok
4
Banner of Wrath
3
Others
1
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alavet
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« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2009, 09:33:19 PM »

i dunno, undead armies seems to be too expensive by points.
maybe we need to lower down cost of some ud troops?

i think changing Skeleton Horsemen   Level 1   4 to 3 points would be nice
and i also think maybe for zombies we need 0,5 point (why not?)
price between ghouls and zombies not big but power of zombies much less.

also what about allowance of 1 magic item "for free" for any army? (exept horn and banner obv)
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olly
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« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2009, 09:51:19 PM »

Just some initial Ideas....

I would Alter:-

Restrictions = Only 2 of Same Unit Type, Unless Super Unit then only 1 allowed like BGK and Artillary etc.

Items
Name Points
Horn of Urgok 6
Banner of Wrath 4
Others 1


Empire

Mercenary Crossbowmen Level 1 3 maybe 4

Since Wood Elf Archers Level 1 4


After playing 5000/15 I have found the Empire to be the Toughest Race

as they have lots of Cheap Infantry Units, so could we consider changes to Empire Infantry.



All Mages should increase in Points from 2 to 3, although Vamp should be 4 as tougher in Melee'


Pistoliers should be 4 since they are normal Cav =3 but with Guns and more Usefull.




Greenskins


Shamens (Mages all set to 3 and Vamp to 4)

Orc Big'uns set to 3 (depending on 2 unit max ,if so then stay at 2)

Orc Arrer Boyz to 3 (depending on 2 unit max ,if so then stay at 2)





Undead

Vampire  = 4

Ghouls = 2

Necromancer = 3

Skeleton Archers = 3 if not 4 (depending on 2 unit max)


Smiley



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« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2009, 12:50:21 PM »

Good idea with this thread Bembelimen



I agree that empire are strong but that is mainly in my mind due to the facts that they are easier to play and so often used alot in deciding games. Not something that is easily changed.
Orcs are weaker because you need to field as many units as possible because they have suffer from lack in leadership compared to empire units.
Undead are weaker because they are expensive and will have less units than empire and orc. undead units are either fearless or will be destroyed if routed. Skeletons have a weak WS and will suffer heavily in combat if they fail to route the enemy they also easily fall victim to archers, wights, wraiths & mummies are either too expensive to be the base of an army or too unreliable.


I would suggest


Restrict number of same unit type, by increasing cost after 2 for basic units like skeleton/ghouls/greats/halbar/boys/gob like in improved 3000/10 rules by mikademus and increase after 1 for all advanced units like cavalry/bigguns/wights
Only 1 mage and artillery per army

Basic Units
Greatswords/Halbardeers (count as one type or 2 of same will be 4 by using both types)
Orc Boyz
Night Goblins
Ghouls
Skeleton Warriors
Zombies

Advanced Units
Crossbows
Boar Boys
Wights
and so on

Items:
Horn of Urgok 8 pts (atleast maybe more to make the use of it a challenge and not a walk in the park)
Banner of Wrath 4
others 1

Empire
Pistoleers 4


Greenskin
Orc Arrer boyz 2


Undead
Skeleton Cavalry 3
2xZombies 1
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alavet
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« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2009, 06:02:23 PM »

Quote
Restrict number of same unit type, by increasing cost after 2 for basic units like skeleton/ghouls/greats/halbar/boys/gob like in improved 3000/10 rules by mikademus and increase after 1 for all advanced units like cavalry/bigguns/wights
Only 1 mage and artillery per army
i dont get it. why you want to prevent mass arimes? like cant you crash skeleton hordes or what?
i may udnerstand of reducing max. q-ty of archers by 2, but its close...

as for mages its absurd - noone will ever have 2 mages at once, cause mana points distributed in same q-ty and you usually have it all spended anyway. if empire would use both fire and ice mages i think it'd be very nice to see, and i actually want to see how good player will take advantage of it.

my additional thoughts:
1) i dont like idea of increasing ud archers for 4. its ridicilous for me. 3 as max, but i think 2 is good enough still. maybe 2.5?

2) i want to use lvl2 armies. why not? i think there is nothing wrong from using lvl2 armies, as long as it be double cost at points. you wouldnt be able to use lvl2 black grails anyway, and anything else not really imbalanced as well.

and mages in this case would have much more power, at lvl1 i think they really suck. maybe level up for orc mage should cost less point, cause his spells really weak.

3) i forgot what i wanted to say but hopefully add later.
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huks
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« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2009, 06:13:00 PM »

Welll im pretty much saying the same stuff as in Februarys toruney topic:

Arties:
Horn 7 or 8

Undead:
Skeleton Calvalry-----3  (4 is way too much considering their melee power)
Mummies-----5  (they are one of the slowest unit in the game, and can be kited by any ranged unit, not worth of 6 points because of that big weakness)
Zombies----0.5  (the worst unit in game)
Wights-----3


Greenskins:
Orc Arrer Boyz---2  (1 is too low considering they are ranged and in melee as strong as orc boyz)
Troll-----1  (the only units they can win are artillery,mages IF troll doesent get hit or resists magic. They also win scorpions/spiders ~60% of time)
Orc Rock Lobber-----3

Empire:
Pistoliers-----3.5


I don't think we have to go to 3000/10 rules and increase the cost after the first unit for others of the same type. It is very hard if not impossible to balance
unit costs, so doing that only because of balance is pointless. Im 100% sure that after each tourney(no matter what rules we use)people will find something unbalanced, and make suggestions
to change that. Increasing the cost for 2nd and 3rd unit would only mean making some armies useless(like armies with lots of ranged regiments)reducing the types of armies
you could face on the battlefield. But I know it works much better for 3000/10, since battles are much smaller scale.
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Flak
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« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2009, 06:44:33 PM »

Quote
Restrict number of same unit type, by increasing cost after 2 for basic units like skeleton/ghouls/greats/halbar/boys/gob like in improved 3000/10 rules by mikademus and increase after 1 for all advanced units like cavalry/bigguns/wights
Only 1 mage and artillery per army
i dont get it. why you want to prevent mass arimes? like cant you crash skeleton hordes or what?
i may udnerstand of reducing max. q-ty of archers by 2, but its close...

i dont want to prevent mass armies but we need a balance, 5000gc will buy you very different armies with the 3 races and the races need to be able to match eachother

as for mages its absurd - noone will ever have 2 mages at once, cause mana points distributed in same q-ty and you usually have it all spended anyway. if empire would use both fire and ice mages i think it'd be very nice to see, and i actually want to see how good player will take advantage of it.

I dont exspect many to use 2 mages but as the issue with teleporting mages occur after each tournament then i doubt more dodging mages is needed. it was more intented for artillery

2) i want to use lvl2 armies. why not? i think there is nothing wrong from using lvl2 armies, as long as it be double cost at points. you wouldnt be able to use lvl2 black grails anyway, and anything else not really imbalanced as well.

The introduction of lvl 2 units would totally disrupt the balance that the 5000/15 rules are spose to create, by all means use the rules you feel free in one-on-one battles but for tournaments a level of equal chance is necessary

and mages in this case would have much more power, at lvl1 i think they really suck. maybe level up for orc mage should cost less point, cause his spells really weak.

Again lvl 2 mages with ashur and wand of jet would cost only 4 pts but would be very powerful compared to lvl 1 regiments



// I reformated the quotes to make it more readable, I hope this is ok -- bembelimen
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alavet
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« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2009, 07:05:31 PM »

Quote
i dont want to prevent mass armies but we need a balance, 5000gc will buy you very different armies with the 3 races and the races need to be able to match eachother
give me example of army which seems to be imbalanced for you for some reasons

Quote
I dont exspect many to use 2 mages but as the issue with teleporting mages occur after each tournament then i doubt more dodging mages is needed. it was more intented for artillery
afaik there is a rule which prevent mages to teleport if they stay alone (when all troops dead). i think its reasonable and pretty enough move to solve this teleport issue.
as for artilerry - i hvnt faced with much power of them but maybe its reasonable

Quote
The introduction of lvl 2 units would totally disrupt the balance that the 5000/15 rules are spose to create, by all means use the rules you feel free in one-on-one battles but for tournaments a level of equal chance is necessary
again, give me example of army which seems to be imbalanced for you for some reasons

Quote
Again lvl 2 mages with ashur and wand of jet would cost only 4 pts but would be very powerful compared to lvl 1 regiments
totally agree. i fogot to say that i think increasing cost of mages is necessary. maybe like 2.5; or 2>6 in that case..
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« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2009, 11:09:55 AM »

The 5000/15 is aimed at lvl 1 units, firstly with only 5000gc buying units higher than lvl 2 takes a serious drain on the 5000gc, the dwarf warriors lvl 1 cost 525 & 2 pts, lvl 2 cost 1050gc, what would the pts cost be in this case? 3? the dwarfs now cost 1/5 of the gold.
Flagellants lvl 1 cost 375gc & 3 pts, but flagelants only have lvl 3, now by allowing the dwarf warriors to cost 3 at lvl 2, the Flagellants has to cost 5 pts at lvl 3 but only 1440gc.
Imperial Greatswords at lvl 1 cost 435gc & 1 pts, at lvl 4 3480gc & 4 pts.
Glade Guards at lvl 1 cost 525gc & 2 pts, at lvl 4 4200gc & 5 pts
Grungebringer Cavalry cost more than 5000gc so they are out at higher level.

Undead who already have smaller armies due to the higher cost they have would not be able to use higher lvl units as their best units already has a heavy cost.


Skeleton Warriors cost 450gc & 2 pts, lvl 2 900gc & 3 pts, lvl 4 3600gc & 5 pts
Mummies cost 1200gc & 6pts, lvl 2 2400gc & 7pts, lvl 3 4800gc & 8 pts
Wrights cost 1050gc & 3 pts, lvl 3 4200gc & 5pts
Black Grail and Wraiths are both at high cost and are only just affordable at with lvl 1


Using more than 1000gc on one unit in 5000/15 is normally all you can afford because you could run into an orc army with 10 units and then having only 5-6  units is dangerous, we would see an extensive use of the few low level units suitable for 5000/15.
The system of higher level units im sure would work well in 9000/30 or just 9000 no limit, but 5000/15 does not have enough money and points to give it full credit. 
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« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2009, 11:33:59 AM »

as someone said (as example), there is no point to restrict Horn from the game if its imbalanced, solution is to make this cost rather high. so why we cant apply identical concept for lvl2 units? if you dont see point to use them cause such army would be useless, why you dont want to try other players to test it? (and loose if you're right). i think lvl2 opens up more tactics which is only better to the game.
and about your example:
Quote
the dwarf warriors lvl 1 cost 525 & 2 pts, lvl 2 cost 1050gc, what would the pts cost be in this case? 3?
- why not to double up buying points for lvl2 forces? i really think that lvl2 troop is better than 2 similar lvl1 troops in some cases (if you manage to rule them nice). as for some gap between lvl1 and lvl3 (as you said, flagellants) - well why not make points to buy multiply to 3 in that case? and if you arent able to buy it for 15 points (as example grails lvl2 would cost 20 poitns which not apply to 15/5000) then its natural restriction.

p.s. i actually think we strongly need add to multiplayer battles some other forces: open up chariots for UD and add possibility to buy every level of each unit (for example flagellants lvl2). its a question for modding guys though.

Quote
Using more than 1000gc on one unit in 5000/15 is normally all you can afford because you could run into an orc army with 10 units and then having only 5-6  units is dangerous, we would see an extensive use of the few low level units suitable for 5000/15.
The system of higher level units im sure would work well in 9000/30 or just 9000 no limit, but 5000/15 does not have enough money and points to give it full credit.
 
for this issue - every standard lvl2 units able to have 2 artifact slots (correct me if i wrong) so it may pretty much help in hard battles like agaisnt 10 armies.
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« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2009, 12:35:38 PM »

There is no problem with testing out a new rule set not at all feel free
but i think what your tryn to suggest is more a totally re-made ruleset based on 5000/15 or 9000/30
not a few simpler upgrades that can be incorporated with the experience already gained from the monthly tournaments, thats what i was suggesting. Especially if you want to mod the original files, as you say with more levels for all units. It sounds cool dont get me wrong but its also a longterm change that might not be optional atm but when it is then ofcz a new ruleset that goes into more depth would be needed.
I think altho im not 100% that chariots are too unstable in multiplayer to be added atm but ask ghabry and mikademus for details on that one.
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olly
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« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2009, 10:35:27 PM »

Some Great Points above, ideal thoughts to Enhance Game Play.

I think we all want to keep 3k and 5k  Lv 1 Battles Small,

Great for new members and different Battles,

Compared with 7k and 9k Lv 2 where we all want the Large Battles.

With possible Additional Units.


Smiley

Also please....Pick 6 of the Fairest Maps. 


http://forum.dark-omen.org/maps/all-maps-t155.0.html




« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 12:57:09 AM by olly » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2009, 01:26:19 AM »

I think we all want to keep 3k and 5k  Lv 1 Battles Small,

Yes, there is no point allowing people to use higher level creatures than 1. It would only cause more balance problems and every winning army would have level 2 mage with ashur+jet.

EDIT:regiments not creatures! Sorry I have been playing dungeon keeper 2 too much Tongue
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« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2009, 11:23:29 AM »

i agree general maximus  Wink & Olly

i forgot there is 7000gc armies too lol too cought up in 3000 and 5000
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« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2009, 09:11:33 PM »

Flaks 5000/15 suggestion

Unit                       cost for 1st to 3rd unit

Crossbowmen                   2/3/3
Imperial Cannon                3/4/5
Bright Wizard                    2/3/4
Halbardiers                       1/2/2
Bowmen                          2/3/3
Flagellants                       3/3/4
Mortar                            3/4/5
Ogres                             2/2/3
Swordsmen                      2/2/3
Greatswords                    1/2/2
Ice Mage                         2/3/4
Cavalry                           3/3/4
Pistoleers                        4/5/6
Knights of the Realm          3/3/4
Dwarf Warriors                 2/2/3
Glade Guards                   2/3/3
Wood Elf Archers              4/5/6
Treeman                         4/4/5


Goblin Archers                  1/1/2
Goblins                            1/1/1
Spider                             2/2/3
Scorpion                         1/2/3
Goblin Shaman                  1/2/3
Orc Arrers                       2/2/3
Orc Boars                        2/2/3
Orc Boyz                         1/1/2
Orc Big'uns                      2/2/3
Orc Bolt Thrower               3/3/4
Orc Rock Lobber               4/5/6
Troll                                1/2/3
Goblin Archer w.Fanatic     2/3/3
Goblin w.Fanatic               2/2/3


Vampire                           3/4/5
Ghouls                             1/1/2
Mummies                          5/6
Necromancer                    2/3/4
Scull Catapult                   3/4/5
Skeleton Archers               2/2/3
Skeleton Horsemen            3/3/4
Skeleton Warriors              2/2/3
Black Grail                        10
Wights                            3/3/4
Wraiths                           7/8
Zombies                          ½/1/1 (2 zombies first must be purchased together and cost ½ each)


Items

Horn of Urgok                    10 pts (its better than grail knights in my opinion so it needs to be high to still present a challenge)
Banner of Wrath                4 pts
others                              1pts
« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 10:09:58 PM by Flak » Logged

"There is only one way out of hell, thats through it" -- General Patton

"Just because a mage wears the Black Robes, does not make him evil." -- Raislin Magere

"Evil Turns upon it self" -- Paladine
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