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Author Topic: Release v1.2 out: Rebalance and community wishes  (Read 13446 times)
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Grend
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« on: April 15, 2010, 08:45:29 PM »

EDIT: I had forgotten to include the right files somehow, so please redownload if you want the new lists..
Sorry for any inconvenience.


Download Link

The above link appears to be no longer working I have uploaded the latest version here:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/lk6zjjz482jshng/Release 1.2-Correct.zip
- Darkmancer

Atm the Armybook has too many errors to be posted here.
Ill add a link here when I get it more up to date.

Changes:
-Removed some things (mostly abilities) that seemed to crash the game
-Made Ogre Bull units contain 4 ogres
-Made cheap cavalry like wolves more expensive and more cowardly
-Changed how miners work
-Decreased ballistic skill of Chaos Dwarf Blunderblussiers
-Fixed some errors
-Added a 3 troll unit to the Orc and Goblin list
-Removed potions of strength on Goblins, except for Squig Hoppers
-Made the steam Tank cheaper
-Made the Treeman cheaper
-Alot of more stuff

-Grend
« Last Edit: July 23, 2010, 07:30:27 PM by Darkmancer » Logged

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olly
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« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2010, 09:19:05 PM »

Excellent work thnx,

Smiley
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Darkmancer
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« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2010, 10:44:17 PM »

The dwarven siege engines still have toughness 7 & 3 wounds btw.
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Darkmancer
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« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2010, 12:31:24 AM »

Grend you sure you linked to the correct version?  Alot of the changes you listed arn't in the 1.2 you linked.
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« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2010, 01:13:05 AM »

jjajaj grenddd i knew it! i love you baby, i was made for you baby, you were made for love me baby (Cool
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Grend
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« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2010, 06:29:17 AM »

Oops, thanks for spotting it, I replaced the wrong files. Correct version is up now though!
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« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2010, 08:55:38 PM »

Shame about the dwaven miners Sad

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« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2010, 11:05:59 PM »

To my friend Grend. I have a wish with DoE too.
I want to do a big suggestion for improving DoE structure (better after Tourney).

Change Gold Limit from 5k to 9k. Principle: Players edit Armies of 6k and use resting 3k for Reinforcements/Items.

The good part is that you can keep current regiment prices. Im not the only guy that can use until 4950gc and cant use the full 5k gold. With my suggested structure, game will have +1050gc for buying Regiments = 6k.
Note: You must use 6k no more, no less for armybuilds. The resting 3k are for Items and Extra Soldiers.

Now... wtf? The idea is to make regiments have a BASE number and then be incomplete (like Generals/Heroes, but with the difference they come with a "base quantity". They still will be different from Heroes because they come alone = 1 super leader and no followers).

Examples: Goblins Warriors 24/32, Blundernoisses 14/20, Hunting dogs 12/16, Greatswords detachment 8/12, Kossars 16/24, etc. And Heroes still will come alone like 1/16, 1/10, etc.
I see this new Structure very interesting since buying Extra Grail Knights is a terrible pain (175gc each cavalry unit), now this could be afforded, within the 3k only for reinforcements.

Im not saying "everyone" must have extra limits, example single monsters and artillery would keep their base quantity.
Perhpas make Ogres 3/6 mmh! (Note: extra Shields really make singular unit cost as hell, my suggestion for OGRES is to give them 4 armours, making them tough and at same time... expensive for each singular extra Ogre)

Perhaps Flaggelants and Wraiths keep their 12/12, not extra, since will be powerful or obviouslyt bouhgt always.
Not everyone, just the basics infantry/ranged/cavalry. Not specials of those type (unless have high armour = expensive. Example (Chaos): Chosen Knights 8/10, lot of armour, each guy will cost like 175gc)

This Structure will make DOE even more special, since we are talking of the 1st 6k Ruleset in history. Wihtout mentioning the lots of variated armybuilds despite having up to 8 regiments to pick in each Race.

Then, you will change Items knowing that players have 3k in pocket to spend.
Example: Horn of Urgok obviously at 3000gc Smiley Banner of Wrath at 1000gc, etc, I leave this to you...

I hope you take this structure, otherwise, someone will do it heheheh.
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« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2010, 11:16:02 PM »

http://forum.dark-omen.org/tournaments/tournament-april-2010-t719.0.html;msg7451#msg7451
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alavet
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« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2010, 07:02:45 AM »

actually i've jsut played this mod (multiplayer) only at this new tourney.

so i put there my first itnentions of it:

1) new banners are fun, but i dont like some banners for some armies. seems like you reworked ALL banners at all, which is a big pain for the first several games. i guess due of limited banner resources you only can assign banners for specific FACTION (which are 3 basic ones - hu, gs, ud). Is it correct?

i feel confused for many banners. sorry, but i dont like following ones:
zombies, ghouls, goblins. i think standard banenrs for them is better, cause its some "basic" units and i feel like banners are better for them. maybe same for other races (i tested i only Empire, Counts, Chaos &Ogres)

I liked all ogres banners though.

2) Bloodthirst it compeltely out of line for infantry. esp for flagellants.
this thing should be completely removed from infantry. Maybe its good for tabletop games (i dont know about units specialitis at table games) but i sure that there is another retreat preferences for units, they're have to move to the closest side of the screen and the ndissapear, while at DO they flee randomly for first ~2 rounds and only after then runnign away (also seems randomly). also at tabletop if im not mistaken, most regiments jsut get destroyed instantly when getting touched by other regiment while on flee.

3) i feel very frustrated that armybook doesnt have army description and portaits or at least soem basic images. Lordbrapus & WK managed to get the good ones in that Perhars its also impossible due of the limited factions? can some1 confirm? can we deal with that?

balance by races:
EMPIRE: seems pretty low on infantry level and too many canons (3 diffirient canons + steam tank) BUT they dont much stand a chance agaisnt dwarves anyway, despite of such high oriented defensive army. Should be reworked imo.
Also i havent found Reiksguard?

OGRES: despte of immune to fear i faced they run away very often. thanks to their high TO they dont lose many tropps with that and return to battle pretty often, but vs more "fast" army they totally owned. also they lsot pretty hard to Chaos w/o chances.

next one i had pretty "even" battle with my Counts vs Jeronimo Ogres btu he basically spammed "Rage ogres" or somethign with similar name, which i hvnt foudn there
https://spreadsheets0.google.com/ccc?key=tc8DROVKGRUJzYn4p1orATw&hl=en

spamming 1 unit doesnt seems too good, possible gold changing should solve it.
goblins fighters are pathetic even for 300

CHAOS:
Felt like the most powerfull race from which i played so far. Very solid infantry, good knights and awesome mage (itsb asically level2 mage with one good offensive skill whioch detimates any artillery or sometimes archer unit)

Bloodthirst is an issue as stated, though. Perhars Trolls should be upper in cost. Also Chaos in all could be changed in price (little upper), i could afford all untis i felt liek to test w/o problems (which not feels good as balance)

VAMPIRE:
i feel like that 32 zombies worse than 24 due of horrific pathfinding. abnd frankly speaking even 24 is bad (lol)
btw i have an idea. why not to make INFESTED zombies, like it at Myth (zombies with HoW, perhrars 2 or 3 of them). It would be reayy FUN and enjoyable thing. believe me! Please, PLEASE do that! oh god! same could be done for some dwarves when they dead!
it open ups soem super tactics, including snipershoting such zombies or something.

- serious issue with wights. we with Jeronimo found the're very fearless. we attacked it frome the rear like 3 times in a row and they didnt fleed (some few times they did though). maybe there is somethign with stats with them?
Also crumble willn't help them if they starts with 12units in my opinion - they'll die too slow comparign to the damage they'll deal. Better leave it as it was at original DO, with perhars 9 units but strong ones, but fragile as well (with cost about 800 or so).

smkeletons absolutely outpriced, noone uses it at DO when they cost like 500, who will bother to buy them for 600? price should be much reduced, to 400 or so.

blakc knights aint too weak? W3, S4, T4, !!I2!! A1 + unbreakable (not super big deal for UD) doesnt cost 1200 imo. 1000 and deal.  
thoughts about Black Knights only theorycrafting.

all 3 heroes are superweet. very hard choice, gj with that!

DWARVES:
jeronimo used mass Thudnerreres vs my low infantry Empire army and demolished it. I had like 4 regiment, noone could came (map was good for him, Tutorial one). Problems as i see:

huge range for pistoelters. I think its same as crossbowmen or even far. OH WOW.
also massing one unit doesnt seems "FUN"

wight blade for units with 2 attacks for 750 seems pretty strong. - only theouycrafting. 




« Last Edit: April 27, 2010, 08:00:45 AM by alavet » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2010, 04:07:07 PM »

1 & 3)  Artwork takes time and effort, there's lot of units in DOE so feel free to help Grend with the banners Smiley

2)  Why do people expect they're troops to have no disadvantages?  There are countless examples of armies breaking ranks to charge after a fleeing enemy and getting themselves killed because of it.  The Warhammer Hammerworld is full of stupid, psycotic, drugged up, cruel, and nasty creatures, why do you they're going to be entirely controllable?  If you think a unit isn't good enough because of bloodthirst complain about cost, otherwise it's upto you to exploit/compensate for the bloodlust.  Good commandings about covering your weakness, as much as exploiting strenghts.

Balance:
Empire: Troops don't have to put up with being super slow, plus empire has the steam tank or mage, empire troops are better than the cheaper dwarven troops but worse than the better ones, although I agree it be nicer to have some more troop options, though the ones in the current edition are frankly a bit boring.  Reiksguard is a calavy unit which goes under a different name in the army book.

Ogres, I generally agree, although against choas they've got fear and double cannon units with fast movement Smiley

CHAOS: I agree they're a little op I don't think all they're units should be made more expensive, just the Mage troll and hounds,  Choas is meant to be a small but high powered army i believe?

Zombies being a shambling horde is a problem? Smiley  I know DO pathfinding can be very sucky, but it suits stupid zombies dont you think, and given the average regiment is 16 Halberdiers for 450, 32 zombies for 300gp is not a bad deal, and large number squads is so useful for fear squads  (they will break any squad the beat in h2h only if they outnumber them).  Same with skeletons who I found worked alot better than I though they would (600 is a little expensive but they are a nice option).  Ghouls are overpower but they are in the tabble top too.

People arn't giving spirt host a chance, they expecting them too be how they were in DO however in DO they are stupidly flaky with Grends method they do collaspe against superiour oppents, you change the leadership value to goveen how quickly they die.  I don't think they have the correct stats yet, but in the end they will give a really brilliant and unsual unit. 
Re Thunders (or any pistol unit), we cannot change the range or power of pistols, just the Balistic skill which changes fire rate.  Vs pistols use terrain if possible even slight gradients will stop the bullets until your fairly close, also do not approch head on.  Force them to rotate the squad to fire on your units as is wastes tons of time for they're squads to reform (espesially drawves).

AFinally the wright blade does not work like that.  The wright blade when it hits causes 1 to 3 wounds when it hits, those hits are not trasferable between units.  So vs units with 1 wound it is completely useless.  90% of squads in games are made from 1 wound troops 5% are wizards (if you have them in melee they're pretty much dead wright blade or no.  Overall wright blades sound cool, inpractice, they're a bit shit.


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Grend
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« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2010, 10:41:53 PM »

Good feedback Ill look into it! Some banners were rushed, and it shows, not high priority though
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alavet
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« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2010, 07:14:14 AM »

to Darkmancer: LET THE BATTLE BEGIN!!
//for sure balancing is hard. and everyone have independent opinion.
thats big pain-in-the-ass for the proejct leaders, as Grend, but well, eh.. that's what they've choosed Cheesy//

\\also i wonder if its mode an "Author" mode, i.e. could Grend afford absolutely new units, or its an attempt to copy TT and not trying to get from these borders? I guess its the second option, but i dont  get why you cant modify it comparing to TT and get a new units. stop being so orthodox. and i barely know any computer game which follows all TT rules, even WH 40k (98 year or so) i guess have something diffirient in mechanics\\

now lets fight!

Quote
1 & 3)  Artwork takes time and effort, there's lot of units in DOE so feel free to help Grend with the banners Smiley
indeed. i understand how hard/boring/long it takes to draw a banner or sprite (i tried to do it for 2 mins!). no thanks i dont want to draw it myself Cheesy its better be kept as it is, i cant do that ;(


Quote
2)  Why do people expect they're troops to have no disadvantages?  There are countless examples of armies breaking ranks to charge after a fleeing enemy and getting themselves killed because of it.  The Warhammer Hammerworld is full of stupid, psycotic, drugged up, cruel, and nasty creatures, why do you they're going to be entirely controllable?  If you think a unit isn't good enough because of bloodthirst complain about cost, otherwise it's upto you to exploit/compensate for the bloodlust.  Good commandings about covering your weakness, as much as exploiting strenghts.
as i stated, retreating mechanics differs from TT rules, first 2 round or so regiment willn't rise "white flag" and moving randomly and even after rising flag its could choose very long path to go.
also i can understand if bloodthirst works for 2,3 rounds but not more, but since we limited in mechanics i prefer to remove it from infantry at all.
Also logically "in life" i dont think flagellants will chase cavarly forever, cuase cavalry could get out of the sight flagellants pretty fast Smiley

Balance:
(during this part im trying to see any contradictions with my opinion but unfortunately cant find one, so little frustrated untill next one comes)

Quote
People arn't giving spirt host a chance, they expecting them too be how they were in DO however in DO they are stupidly flaky with Grends method they do collaspe against superiour oppents, you change the leadership value to goveen how quickly they die.  I don't think they have the correct stats yet, but in the end they will give a really brilliant and unsual unit.  

well yes i very like the idea of wraith but crumble unit. we need to test it more to udnerstand of real strenght of this unit though. my opinion was based on our 2 fights vs jeronimo, whereas Spirits was very striong. Also in google spreadsheet there is nothign abotu "crumble" AND i saw several times wraiths actually flee so i dont know what current stats of this unit!

Quote
Re Thunders (or any pistol unit), we cannot change the range or power of pistols, just the Balistic skill which changes fire rate.  Vs pistols use terrain if possible even slight gradients will stop the bullets until your fairly close, also do not approch head on.  Force them to rotate the squad to fire on your units as is wastes tons of time for they're squads to reform (espesially drawves).
good points! i think we need reduce BS still, range is huge comparing ot the pistoleters (from my feeling, its hard to see they actually shooting). squad size is good as these buttons + and - should help.


wait, is it all rage? oh ok

GREND can you please please  PLEASE  review possibility of adding such a funny new units:

1) exploding zombie. basically 3-4 zombies in pack with stats of a current zombies or little better TO with HOW . Have you played Myth? Its gonna be fun! (btw can we make it with x2 HoWs? lol
i think cost should be not more than 350 or even 300. HoW is bad but funny.

2) spirit archers. basically Soulless from Myth, but with better mechanics. Means archers which cannot be hit by other archers. but with better stats than skeletons i think :-)

3) Cult member from Myth. Basically mage with thing which makes spell 1 mana less and + only 1 spell - Death Ray. cost for 500 or so.. could be superb if you can make himn attack with this spell with huge delay between attacks..

4) dwarf/empire unit - basically mortair with speed of 5-6, and pretty small range with HoW
. So it will be like dwarf shooting his exploding bombs from the small distance (and random). When dies, it expodes (additional FUN)

5) FireDemon- big ass Chaos creature like treeman with hellfire sword.

6) big rat swarm - sprite with like 10 units BUT sprite should look like its 3 units (3 rats) instead of 1 unit. That could require WO=3?. very high MS (like 7+), high WS & AT, ST=1, crubmles.

7) spirist mage. basically wraith mage. OUCH
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 07:41:10 AM by alavet » Logged

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Darkmancer
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« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2010, 12:14:49 AM »

Grends trying to produce an approximation of the tabletop game as best he can with the DO engine.  Amusingly Jeronimo and lordbagpuss are whinging that the stats don’t exactly match the TT and your nagging him to be more flexible, hehehe poor grend.

RE bloodlust:
Ahh tell Grend to be more flexible, then you say not to use bloodlust as its not exactly the same as in the TT version Smiley,  units don’t always wait 2 combat rounds to fully break, and the don’t always take the long route, you just have to play what ever dice rolls you get.  TBH you don’t have to use Bloodthirsty units, there’s always an alternative.  Sometimes with not such good stats but hey thats what the bloodlust pays for (eg i prefer savage orcs with an extra attack and BL, than normal orcs with more armour and no BL).

 I wouldn’t hold your breath about myth style units, I think he’s trying to stay close to the warhamer world.  I doubt you’ll get exploding zombies, however maybe another race has something similar?  Probobly Orc’s n Gobbos, an Orc straping a load of explosive to a goblin is fairly likely, nothing to do with fighting of course just mainly for the amusement of the orc Smiley


RE cult member& spirit mage – see banshee in the VC count range.

Re fire Demon, Grend mentioned adding another 2 armies – 1 being demons of chaos i think its called?  Until then – the night elves Hydra.

RE Rat swarm, yep i though about suggesting something similar for the VC bat swarm, however DO doesn’t allow much detail on the sprites, increase the number of units per sprite, and well, i’ll look a bit rubbish methinks.  


Spirt Hosts

Grend changed the stats between the first and second tournament:

1st Stats
4,2,0,2,1,1,2,1,5 wraith,crumbles,immune to fear,causes fear, ignores terrain, unbreakable
2nd Stats
4,2,0,2,1,1,2,1,10 wraith,crumbles,immune to fear,causes fear, ignores terrain

Now I suspect he tried making them weaker by allowing them to break on charges/in h2h, instead of just losing units.  Where I think however he accidently made them stronger.

Ld tests are from 2d6 dice so roll between 2-12, also rerember you 6x more likely to roll a 7 than a 12 (you can only roll 12 with 6&6, vs 7 with 1&6, 2&5, etc).  

So in the 1st version you had a 72% of losing between 1&7 units (most likely 1-3).

In the 2nd Version you only had 8.3% change of killing 1-2 units.  However in the 2nd version the unit would break (i think?), and you would get an addition roll when charging.

Personally I prefer the 1st version, though probably lower the ld to 4 and raise strength too 3 to give 83% losing 1-8units (most likely 2-4), as they did last a bit long did sprit hosts when outmatched. (strength 3 to give them more chance to kill stuff, they really struggled before).  Though then you lose the power to break them (they’d break constantly with ld 4/5 with no unbreakable tag).

By the way Grend, I think being able to field Vampire+Banshee+Neco will be a bit overpowered.  Originally when I thought you could only have 1, each had strengths and weakness, but together they can override those weakness’s (eg, Banshees vunerability to magic, vampires lack off magic, necros lack of close range ability).

The rest of the sides are fine it’s just VC which seems to have the problem.


Finally
http://battlereporter.blogspot.com/2009/04/free-bretonnian-empire-dogs-of-war.html
Some nice flags maybe for empire/bretonnia?  The othe link don't work, the flags orginally came from www.warflag.com but the other flags on his site tend to be a bit rubbish.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 12:47:40 AM by Darkmancer » Logged

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Jeronimo
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« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2010, 02:01:24 AM »

Quote
1 & 3)  Artwork takes time and effort, there's lot of units in DOE so feel free to help Grend with the banners Smiley
indeed. i understand how hard/boring/long it takes to draw a banner or sprite (i tried to do it for 2 mins!). no thanks i dont want to draw it myself Cheesy its better be kept as it is, i cant do that ;(





Hehehe. I knew it Smiley
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